Scientology a Cult?

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posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 04:29 PM
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Azeari of the Radiant Eye

So you're saying that if someone has a chemical imbalance, and the medicine they take corrects that imbalance, that the medicine is only masking the problem and not correcting it? How do you figure?




posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by Azeari of the Radiant Eye

Originally posted by WissNX01
I dont think I called members by name anything. Scientology is a cult, plain and simple.


"Nuts" is a derogatory name, and is apparently your favorite insult. And insults, rumors, and generalities have been your main "contributions" to this thread.



I think I'm taking care of this Azeari. M'kay?



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
Azeari of the Radiant Eye

So you're saying that if someone has a chemical imbalance, and the medicine they take corrects that imbalance, that the medicine is only masking the problem and not correcting it? How do you figure?


Well, first of all I'm not medically trained and am certainly not an expert on brain chemistry. But if you start from the idea that an affliction like, say, depression is a spiritual malaise, then it makes sense to me that the cause and effect is: spiritual malady causing negative physical effects. So perhaps brain chemical imbalances are caused by (are a side effect of) depression, not vice versa.

I realize that many people will not agree with the starting point of that argument. Many millions of people are convinced that they are their bodies, rather than that they are spiritual beings inhabiting and controlling their bodies. An unfortunate fact, imho, but a fact nonetheless.

This is all theoretical, of course. But what's NOT theoretical is that medical science doesn't know exaclty what these drugs do, nor does it thoroughly understand the human brain. So it's trial & error, hit & miss, often (in my experience) ends up like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. (Or indeed a teaspoon to crack a boulder...)

One thing I know for sure: after 8 years of swallowing the psychiatry line (and swallowing nearly every anti-depressant known to man), it wasn't until I started looking at it the OTHER way that I started getting better.

So this works for me. That didn't. (Nor has it worked for anyone else I know...)



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 11:15 PM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest
I have mixed feelings. I'm on meds for an issue. They don't solve the problem, they just mask it, as tom cruise points out. My quality of life is better, however, so I am grateful I have the choice to take them or not.

I was on meds 4 years, but I'm not right now. As you said, they do not solve the problem, but they gave me help to get me to a place where I could deal with my issues.

The medication issue is one area where Azeari and I agree to disagree. We both know that neither of us really knows what happens in the brain, and our 'truths' are based on our own experiences. I respect his opinion because I would never want to have to take them again, and I understand why he feels the way he does. He respects my stance that while I don't like them, I would take them again because the alternative is worse. Azeari feels that because I have dealt with the underlying issues, I will never need to take them again. I hope he is right.

A Scientologist could contend that if I had been using the tech, I would not have gotten to a place where I needed to use the meds, and that is possible. If I had gotten help for my problems, it could have been avoided. Through the auditing process, my problems would have been addressed. A very simplified way to describe auditing to help people understand the process is to compare it to therapy. The general principle is to rid yourself of traumatic experiences in the past, by talking about it until it doesn't cause you a reaction anymore.



1) do you consider scientolgy your religion ?

Some Scientologists consider it their religion, for others it is simply something that works for them. It is an individual thing.



2) is the xenu stuff really a part of the church ?

Yes, there is a Xenu. If there is a specific thing about him you would like to know, please ask. I'm sure someone here will be able to answer. As I said before, it is an interesting revelation, and I can understand why it causes concern for some people.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 11:56 PM
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Having worked within the church, I can tell you the technology does work, and it works well.

For those trying to degrade what Scientologist stand for, you have "no" legitimate argument against them.

You want to attack something, then attack the nutbags who perform labotomies and electroshock. Those are your enemies.

The answers about Scientology are found within Scientology books and literature. Enough said.

Much Love,

Troy



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:40 AM
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It's really important to make a distinction between the Church of Scientology and Scientology. Shortly before and in the period after Hubbard 'left his body', the Church became a very different kind of place. When Miscavige took over, they began rewriting tech and expelling long-standing members in good standing based on some of the new 'policies'. Some fairly high level people left, taking the tech with them, and started the Freezone. Scientology the tech and the Church of Scientology are two very different things.

I have absolutely no problem with Scientology. If you look at the actual books it really isn't all that weird. There are striking similarities to Buddhism in some areas; and the entire philosophy is contingent on the fact that there is a creator and that we are spiritual beings separate from our physical bodies.

The claim of abilities to control your physical bodies through your mind are no different than the posts we see here from people talking about Astral Projection or Lucid Dreaming. I can speak from personal experience on the ability to control ones body with the mind. Through meditation you can control your heart rate, your muscles and your breathing. It's not that difficult once you learn how.

You do not have to be a member of the Church to practice Scientology. In fact, I would urge anyone who is interested in Scientology to stay away from the Church of Scientology and contact the Freezone (see Azeari's sig). In the Freezone you will find none of the pressure, high costs or personal interference that have become associated with the Church of Scientology. Only in the Freezone can you find the original tech, the way it was written by Hubbard.

In my opinion, the Church of Scientology is a vindictive, money-grubbing organization run by a small group of men who have taken what Hubbard built and perverted it for personal gain. And there are Scientologists who are in full agreement with me on that statement. The Church of Scientology should in no way reflect negatively on the people who practice Scientology.

Remember, Scientology is not the Church of Scientology.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:47 AM
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Nuts is not my favorite insult, my favorite insult is not G rated.

In any case, there are lots of times that medicine can help people, and thats what I dont get. If a person cannot heal themselves spiritually, then they may need medicated. Chemical imbalance is a fact, and Tom Cruise, Scientology, and you have no medical or scientific basis to say that it is wrong. And these scientology devices that are supposedly health is a fraud.

If these things did help people, then why hasnt the CDC or some medical community caught on and used it on people? Could these devices be expensive pieces of junk that 'Scientologists' buy that, I dont know, spiritually cleanse them? Yeah, let me buy some piece of copper and say it enhances my energy field or life force or whatever. Believe me, if these things actually did help, real scientists and doctors would be all over it. Since no one in Scientology has won a Nobel Prize for Science, Ill assume that these gadgets are garbage.

Also, if society were to go by what Scientology suggests, that would mean that serial murderers and schizophrenics would go untreated and allowed to roam the streets. Sure, they might be entertaining, but I guess the fact that they have serious mental issues makes them normal. And Hubbard forbid if we try to lock these nut jobs up in an institution.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:57 AM
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I only read a few posts, but figured I'd throw my two cents in.

Scientology is not a cult. It is a pyramid scheme.

"We have all the answers for life that will solve all your problems, and if you just pay us, we'll give them to you."


People pay for this profound knowlege. The profound knowlege is given to them, telling them they must sell this profound knowlege to others. Then, as their sales increase, they're privy to buying more information, and can now sell to two different tiers, the people who don't know Scientology and the beginner scientologists. If they continue to increase sales, the get access to selling more materials. Then, if they really do well and show thier devotion to the company, they're told about Xenu.

It's a pyramid scheme, designed to sell more material under guise of understanding.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Scientology is not a cult. It is a pyramid scheme.


My God, thats genious! YOu get my vote.

Isnt it possible, that its both? I can see it as a pyramid scheme and a cult all at the same time.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
Isnt it possible, that its both? I can see it as a pyramid scheme and a cult all at the same time.


I think so, but it just sounded better calling it exclusivly a pyramid scheme


Check out that Xenu site. It's been banned by google and many other sites because Scientology has taken it on. They also have condemned a site I frequent, IMAO.us, for misrepresenting scientology by writing a spoof about Tom Cruise. If you do a search on google for "Xenu", at the bottom you'll be able to read the complaint that caused them to pull the site, and if you go to IMAO.us, you'll see a blog entry detailing what took place with Scientology taking on Frank J. If you are critical of them, or expose that which you must have sold enough to see without making them the cash, you must be silenced.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 01:19 AM
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Thats a great site, thanks. That will take me hours, if not days to read through. interesting how a supposedly harmless and humane 'religion' takes on a harmless site. It would be like the Catholic Church suing every radio host, webmaster, and author for thier parody of the molesting priests. The Church wouldnt do that, and I find it hilarious that Scientology would.

But I digress



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 01:25 AM
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going with your pyramid scheme, I had to post this, as it is hilarious:

FUN FACTS ABOUT SCIENTOLOGY

-They invented the internet

-If you are bit by a Scientologist, you become one.

-You need to win at least twelve Oscars to become a grand wizard

-Blogging is not considered a sin until you touch yourself in an impure way.

-L. Ron Hubbard Didn't really exist. He was just used as a cover so Jews could beat up on the Irish.

-The lil sailor dude on the Craker Jacks box; Scientologist.
-So is his dog

-Scientology is actually a secret division of AMWAY!

-Unlike other religions, Scientology has no animal sacrifice in its origins. You do, however, have to french kiss a goat once a year!

...AND THE BIGGEST SECRET ABOUT SCIENTOLOGY...

-Never use the bathroom after a Scientologist. Very foul!



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 01:38 AM
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I have wondered about these 'Science Reading Centers' or whatever they are called. Can I assume these are run by the Scientologists, and are recruitment centers of sorts?



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 01:40 AM
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That's actually kind of interesting...I drive by one every day coming home from work. If I remember after the fourth, I'll stop in and find out. Heh, then maybe stop in again claiming to be a reporter and see what happens



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 01:46 AM
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Ive just wondered. I have seen them alot recently, and can think back to remember seeing them in the past. I never gave it a second thought till now. Theres always a placard that says something like free reading room or something. I guess giveaways are popular to get people in.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 02:28 AM
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Time

I think this says alot about how it is a cult, no different than the Davidians or even Heavans Gate.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
If these things did help people, then why hasnt the CDC or some medical community caught on and used it on people? Could these devices be expensive pieces of junk that 'Scientologists' buy that, I dont know, spiritually cleanse them? Yeah, let me buy some piece of copper and say it enhances my energy field or life force or whatever.

I'm going to take a guess here and say you're talking about the e-meter.

The e-meter is used in auditing to measure a Scientologists reaction to something. It is a form of a lie detector. The idea is that even if you don't consciously realize you have a negative association with something, your body will react ever so slightly.

Invented by Volney Mathison, the e-meter was originally for use in psychotherapy and chiropractic medicine. The Church started using it during auditing and found it a useful tool in measuring whether the user had finished with whatever issue they were working on. Mathison wouldn't sell the patent so they stopped for a short while, and then came out with their own redesigned version.

The FDA forces them to issue a disclaimer in the literature. According to Wikipedia this is how it currently reads:



By itself, this meter does nothing. It is solely for the guide of Ministers of the Church in Confessionals and pastoral counseling. The Electrometer is not medically or scientifically capable of improving the health or bodily function of anyone and is for religious use by students and Ministers of the Church of Scientology only.

The Volney Mathison information can also be found on that link.



Also, if society were to go by what Scientology suggests, that would mean that serial murderers and schizophrenics would go untreated and allowed to roam the streets.

No, Scientologists wouldn't advocate letting serial killers roam the streets. Murder would be considered an ethical infraction and they take those very seriously.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:49 PM
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But they would let the schiztophrenics run around, huh?!?!?!?!

The e-meter is only one of dozens of crack-pot things they sell. How bout all the levels that you practically have to sell your first born to get to? Yeah, thats not scary. Or how bout thier psudo-navy the Sea Org? No ones talking about that. No ones saying how completely bizarre the Sea Org is. Scientology has thier own navy, and the uniforms to match!!! I dont think the Catholic Church has their own military, hell they outsource and hire them Swiss Guards.

The Sea Org is just a way that Hubbard and his clan cruised about the seas to avoid real humanity. He used it to suck innocent peoples money from them and hide it in Swiss bank accounts and the hundreds of safes he kept at sea.

Lets not forget the late 60s when Hubbard feebily attempted to take over the government of Morocco with his Sea Org. Yeah, all of North Africa was quick to ban him and his 'navy' from harboring there. The Britsh, French, Spanish, Swedish, Italian, and Greek governments all banned him from thier harbors by 1975. Thier investigation organizations clearly identifiedScientology as a cult and watched them closely. The British labeled Scientology a clear threat to thier average citizens in need. For 20 years, Hubbard slipped in and out of these countries and the US because of his connections to tax evasion and organized crime.

In the 1970s, the FBI and IRS were investigating these very violations of the law. YOu had the Scientologists harrassing and wire tapping government officials. The head of the FBI even called the Scientologist operations rival that of the FBI!, and a real threat to personal liberty and free will. The IRS had records that top levels of Scientology was funneling BILLIONS of dollars to off-shore accounts. This of course, was all to fund Hubbards crazy navy and the hoards of teenage girls he liked to keep in company. Lets not forget that Hubbards 3rd wife and 10 others were convicted and sent to prison for crimes related to organized crime. Hubbard was named also as a conspirator, but he could never be found, thus never tried for his crimes.

The 80s and 90s saw an increase of Scientology crimes against the US government. Finally, long after Hubbard blew his brains out (by the way, the thought the CIA and the US Navy were constantly spying on him) Scientology was finally able to gain tax exempt status they lost in the 60s. They settled with the IRS for a mere 12 Million dollars.

Speaking of Scientology being against drugs, lets remember that Hubbard himself was on all kinds of stuff. He was taking 'poppers' like candy. Unlike alot of celebrety Scientologists, at least he had the decency to self medicate.

Lets not ignore the fact that you have to pay to get to the highest levels of Scientology. I have seen figures of upwards of 1 Million dollars for an average person. There have been people that have been forced to sell thier homes, businesses, thier very lives to get even part way up this chain.

Cost
Rank

Its insane! They attacked an anti cult and recovery group with lawsuit after lawsuit. Scientology never won, but the legal fees to the group were too high for them to recover from. So in thier wisdom, Scientology BUYS this group. Now its another recruitment arm for Scientology. They created drug and alcohol groups specifically to squeeze cash from people that dont really have it to begin with. SINister.

You Scientologist apologists can defend them all you want, but Scientology is wrong and a destructive force.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
But they would let the schiztophrenics run around, huh?!?!?!?!

The Church of Scientology does not have the facilities to deal with this kind of mental problem, from my understanding. It is a point that I disagree with them on. My opinion is if you can offer a viable alternative, great, until then please stop attacking the only profession that is trying to help these people.


The e-meter is only one of dozens of crack-pot things they sell. How bout all the levels that you practically have to sell your first born to get to?

It's true, it can get very expensive. However, that is only true of the Church of Scientology, not the Freezone.


Or how bout thier psudo-navy the Sea Org? No ones talking about that. No ones saying how completely bizarre the Sea Org is. Scientology has thier own navy, and the uniforms to match!!!

Actually, if you read the thread, you will see that we have/are talking about it. anxietydisorder was a member and he is happy to answer questions about the Org.


The Sea Org is just a way that Hubbard and his clan cruised about the seas to avoid real humanity.

No, Hubbard floated around on the sea for tax evasion purposes.


The Britsh, French, Spanish, Swedish, Italian, and Greek governments all banned him from thier harbors by 1975. Thier investigation organizations clearly identifiedScientology as a cult and watched them closely.

And Scientology is a recognized religion in many other countries. Interestingly, Falun Gong has been labeled an 'evil cult' by the government of China. This does not make it true.


Finally, long after Hubbard blew his brains out (by the way, the thought the CIA and the US Navy were constantly spying on him) Scientology was finally able to gain tax exempt status they lost in the 60s.

Once again, Hubbard did not die of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Again, if you would just read the thread you are posting in, you will find links to the coroners reports.



Speaking of Scientology being against drugs, lets remember that Hubbard himself was on all kinds of stuff. He was taking 'poppers' like candy. Unlike alot of celebrety Scientologists, at least he had the decency to self medicate.

When Hubbard died, there were traces of an anti-psychotic, Vistaril, in his blood. Most people familiar with the history of the Church think that he was being manipulated by the people surrounding him, to change his will and give them control of the Church.


Lets not ignore the fact that you have to pay to get to the highest levels of Scientology. I have seen figures of upwards of 1 Million dollars for an average person.

See above. True in the Church, not true in the Freezone.



Cost
Rank

Yes we have all seen Clambake.org. Previously, the author of this thread thanked everyone for providing the link repeatedly, but wanted to hear a less biased version of the truth.

On the 'Xenu' site, the Freezone is listed in the 'Where to go from here' section. This is because Andreas Heldal-Lund, the site owner, acknowledges that the practice of Scientology is different from the Church of Scientology.


So in thier wisdom, Scientology BUYS this group. Now its another recruitment arm for Scientology. They created drug and alcohol groups specifically to squeeze cash from people that dont really have it to begin with.

Yes the Church bought Narconon, if that is what you are referring to. Scientologists are very anti-drug and feel that they have the 'tech' to help people. The Church most likely views this as a cash cow and recruitment method, but that does not mean that Scientologists are not honest in their efforts to help people.



You Scientologist apologists can defend them all you want, but Scientology is wrong and a destructive force.

It's funny, I never thought of myself as a Scientologist apologist. In fact, I think that the Church of Scientology is a destructive force and a greedy, vindictive organization. I will never argue on the side of the Church.

But as previously posted, in this thread, the Church of Scientology and the practice of Scientology are two entirely different things. They do not have to go together.



[edit on 2-7-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 01:38 PM
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isn't scientology a personal practice and not a religion?





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