Scientology a Cult?

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posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 01:42 AM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
I think the whole thing with this Tom Cruise craze is simple. Mainstream media is targeting how nuts this guy really is. I mean I saw the Today Show thing, and a clip from when Cruise was on Oprah.


So you're really going to judge this person on the basis of a few seconds of "wacky" behavior? And was it really all that wacky, compared to the downright insanity that others engage in on our screens?

I'm no Cruise apologist, but give the guy a break. I've seen him on a number of different interviews and he's always come across as charming, amusing, intelligent and self-assured.


To get to a higher plane of existance or whatever they call it requires larger financial sums of money to basically pay for it. It would be like a Catholic paying the Church a few million dollars to be a Cardinal or something.


This is true of the Church, but not of Scientology. (I see them as two different things now...) In the Freezone one can reach a "higher plane of existence" for very little money.


I find it entertaining how nuts this guy and people like him are. Take a look at his new girl Katie Holmes. SHe completely threw her own beliefs into the trash and became a Scientologist.


It's interesting how you can call a person you (presumably) never met "nuts". And WHO SAYS that Katie Holmes "threw her own beliefs in the trash"??? What were her beliefs before, do you know? And what makes you think her beliefs have changed?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending these people because they're celebs or because they're Scientologists...I would defend anyone against unfair and unfounded accusations.




posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 02:18 AM
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I guess you would have had to see it. Tom Cruise is crazy, is actions outwardly indictate as such. As far as Katie Holmes is concerned, I dont know her beliefs before, but I figure anyone who joins Scientology is nuts. But that goes for any cult. She was quick to convert too, which indicates some kind of mental instability. I never considered conversion just because of someone i was dating or was going to marry. Of course, I was never trapped by the Scientology spell either.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 02:25 AM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
...but I figure anyone who joins Scientology is nuts.


Gee, thanks.


Seriously, though, that must be one of the most ill-informed, unfounded and downright offensive statements I've ever seen on this forum. (And that's really saying something...)




posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 02:28 AM
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Offensive? Hopefully. A religion/cult based on some kooky sci-fi writers ideas is a bit strange, dont you think? Then the guy goes off and blows his brains out. I dont know, but seems like something a 'normal' person would like to avoid. But please, continue to defend Hubbards crazy cult, its entertaining.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
Offensive? Hopefully. A religion/cult based on some kooky sci-fi writers ideas is a bit strange, dont you think? Then the guy goes off and blows his brains out. I dont know, but seems like something a 'normal' person would like to avoid. But please, continue to defend Hubbards crazy cult, its entertaining.


My pleasure.

You're more than welcome to think it's strange, in fact to think whatever you want to think. But making a broad statement to the effect that everyone who ever joined is "nuts"...well, that's obviously untrue as well as being unecessarily offensive. I'm not "nuts", and I know plenty of other Scientologists who aren't "nuts", either.

And, once again, there isn't a single scrap of evidence to support your claim that Hubbard blew his brains out. According to the coroner's report, he died in his bed. Yes, he was apparently in pretty poor shape, and yes that does raise the question "well, if his stuff was so good, how could he end up that way?". I've wondered that myself, but in the end decided it doesn't really matter. I find Scn useful, so I use it. I don't worship Hubbard (or anyone else); he was, after all, just a man.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 03:06 AM
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I knew you had to be a Scientologist, because thus far, you are the only one defending it.

Its great that it works for you, but what if you come to the point where it no longer does? Would you be able to walk away and find a different path? Or would your Church leaders or what have you pursue you to return?



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 03:16 AM
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The 'Real Conspiracies' of Scientology?

As I've mentioned a few times on these boards, this has been a long-time subject of study for me. The events surrounding Hubbard's death are questionable to say the least, with a select group of men waiting to take control of the Church. My current opinion is that some very greedy and unscrupulous people took advantage of a very ill man towards the end of his life.

For all intents and purposes a small group of men controlled the Church in the period before Hubbard's death, but only by Hubbard's say-so. They wanted to take complete control of the Church after his death. Among them was Terri Gamboa, Lyman Spurlock, Norman Starkey and David Miscavige, the current Head of the Church of Scientology.

Hubbard's Wills

In his second will dated May 10, 1982, he named a trusted friend Patrick Broeker executor of his will with Lymon Spurlock and Norman Starkey as alternatives if Broeker was no longer alive. This effectively gave Patrick Broeker control of the Church after Hubbard's death.

Hubbard's third will was executed the day before he died, on January 23, 1986. In what would be his last will Hubbard replaced Patrick Broeker with Norman Starkey as executor. Patrick Broeker and his wife Anne were witnesses. They dropped out of sight relatively soon after.

Shortly after Hubbard died, David Miscavige took control of the Church, and things have gone downhill.

Random Facts

Gene Denk, Hubbard's personal physician was in Las Vegas at the time of death. Accompanying him on that trip was Terri Gamboa and David Miscavige.

Quantities of a known psychiatric medication were found in his system during the toxicology tests.

Lawyers for the Church wrote the coroner and requested that he destroy all the pictures and negatives contained in his report.

The official cause of death was a cerebral haemorrhage.

Oh, And Another Thing


Originally posted by Azeari of the Radiant Eye
It's worth noting that Hubbard's wife, Mary Sue, died just recently.

This comment reminded me of someone I hadn't thought of in a while, Norton S. Karno. For those unfamiliar with Karno, he was Hubbard's long time tax attorney and California real estate magnate, and his name shows up in some interesting places. He helped with the purchase of Clearwater and may have been a key figure in the Church's fight with the IRS.

Hubbard's 1979 Will

In Hubbard's original will from 1979, Karno is named executor of his estate, giving Karno control over Hubbard's vast empire. He was later replaced with Broeker in 1982. There is also a clause in the 1979 will leaving Norton S. Karno any life insurance policy he might hold on Mary Sue at the time of his death. Hubbard went on to establish a trust to keep the payments on the policy current until her time of death. No mention of this arrangement was in Hubbard's final 1986 will.

Digital Lightwave

Digital Lightwave is a publicly traded company in the fiber-optic industry based out of Clearwater, Florida. From their website:



Telecommunications service providers and equipment manufacturers deploy the Company's products to provide quality assurance and ensure optimum performance of advanced optical communications networks and network equipment.

The company's products are sold worldwide to telecommunications service providers, telecommunications equipment manufacturers, equipment leasing companies and international distributors.

The company was founded by Bryan Zwan, a Scientologist, in 1991. Two years later, he had a meeting with a fellow Scientologist named Brian Haney and a Church representative known only as 'Charmaine' in the Columbus, Ohio Church offices. An agreement is made in which Haney gives $100,000 to the Church's Super Power Expansion Project and invests $5 million in Digital Lightwave in exchange for a 49% interest in the company.

In 1995, Haney requested a review of the company finances. Zwan refused, and it is reported that there was an argument that ended in Zwan giving Haney an ultimatum: Disconnect/divorce your wife or you can no longer do business with me. Haney's wife had been expelled from the Church, and would have had to go through 'Steps A-E' to rejoin (I have no idea what Steps A-E are). Haney refused and Zwan told him he could no longer be a shareholder and that if he did not sell the stocks back the company would surely fail because of internal conflicts. Zwan then offered to buy back the stock for $2.5 million dollars.

Worried that he might lose his entire investment, Haney agreed and the documents were drawn up in February but did not sign them. Haney still retained options that would come into effect in the event of an Initial Public Offering, but Zwan had assured him many times that an IPO was not in the company's future. Unknown to Haney, Zwan is busy selling option rights to many wealthy people, mostly Scientologists. The person who had purchased the largest share of the options rights was Norton S. Karno.

In November 1995, Haney signs the repurchase agreement and resigns from the Board of Directors, canceling all options he held. In 1996, Denise Miscavige, sister of the Head of the Church David Miscavige, joins the company as Vice President of Administration. In February 1997, Digital Lightware announces its IPO, and ends up making everyone who had purchased the options a nice sum of money.

Haney filed suit against Digital Lightware and Zwan in December 1997. In July 1998, he amended the lawsuit to include other parties, including Norton S. Karno.

After that there was a whole big mess, involving the fact that Denise Miscavige was using a creative inventory control method which counts unfinished units and empty boxes as finished units in boxes. This ended in the Securities Exchange Commission of Florida launching a suit against the company for financial fraud in connection with an earning management scheme. Some of the allegations were overstating revenues, producing false financial statements and issuing false press releases. A settlement was reached and Zwan was fined $10,000 and had to agree not to break the law again.

Karno's name pops up in a few other interesting places, most notably as the attorney representing Scientologist Doug Neuman on the creditor list for the Reed Slatkin bankruptcy. Doug Newman is special because he may possibly be one of the only people that will see anything out of the proceedings. Neuman and Slatkin were partnered in other ventures, and Neuman has made an offer to the Trustees to buy Slatkin out of them at a reduced price.












[edit on 1-7-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 03:23 AM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
I knew you had to be a Scientologist, because thus far, you are the only one defending it.

Its great that it works for you, but what if you come to the point where it no longer does? Would you be able to walk away and find a different path? Or would your Church leaders or what have you pursue you to return?


I'm not sure I'm the only one defending it - others in this thread are at the very least engaged in intelligent debate rather than spouting sweeping generalities. And Duzey, who is not a Scientologist and is decidedly not "nuts", has corrected some misconceptions

I practice Scientology, but I'm not a member of the Church (haven't been since 1980), so I remain free to choose any path I desire. I was even a staff member, and still no one has ever pursused me or bothered me in any way.

To be fair, there are plenty of stories about people being harassed; at least some of them must be true. Most of that kind of stuff began after I left; the generally accepted view in the Freezone is that the Church began it's decline right around that time. When I was "in", it was a pretty cool place to be, even though I worked long hours for (literally) a few bucks a week.

If we met, you would find me perfectly normal



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
I knew you had to be a Scientologist, because thus far, you are the only one defending it.


I'm no longer involved in Scientology but I will stand up for anyone that wants to learn more about this amazing tech.

You say things like: quote: Originally posted by WissNX01
...but I figure anyone who joins Scientology is nuts.

Thanks for passing judgment on me, Someone you don't even know.

I think you should go back and read your posts to this thread and then spend a moment considering your words and what you base them on.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 05:31 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey

Originally posted by anxietydisorder
If anyone has an autopsy report or any documents that describe the cause of death, I would be interested in seeing them. I would also be interested in any toxicology results attained post mortem.


You can find gif's of the coroner and toxicology reports here:

home.earthlink.net...

They are part of a site called The Mysterious Death of L. Ron Hubbard and it is full of useful info. Definitely recommended reading.

Just to whet your appetite for this site, two facts. Traces of Vistaril were found in his body,


The links you provided answered some of the questions I've had for a long time. I do find it strange that he had Vistaril in his system, but I may get some for myself. It did say that it treats anxiety disorders.


I also want to thank Azeari of the Radiant Eye for jumping into this thread. Your input has been invaluable and has added further insight to an already interesting thread.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 06:15 AM
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You're more than welcome.


If Vistaril is good enough for L Ron, it's good enough for you.


Azeari's always been a favourite of mine. He always says such nice things.
He is an excellent example of the kind of Communication training Scientologists receive. And so are you.

Validations all around......


[edit on 1-7-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 06:23 AM
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quote:

[edit on 1-7-2005 by amb1063]



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 12:04 PM
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I will keep my opinions about Scientology, and about anyone who joins it. I dont need time to reflect, nor shall I.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
I will keep my opinions about Scientology, and about anyone who joins it. I dont need time to reflect, nor shall I.


But I will hope that you stop calling members name.

Verbal warning.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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I have mixed feelings. I'm on meds for an issue. They don't solve the problem, they just mask it, as tom cruise points out. My quality of life is better, however, so I am grateful I have the choice to take them or not.


a few questions for the scientology members/supporters. There is a lot of info out there. I was hoping you'd share your ideas on a few thoughts. My apologies if this has been covered in this thread already

1) do you consider scientolgy your religion ?

2) is the xenu stuff really a part of the church ?



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
Then the guy goes off and blows his brains out.


I don't like Scientology. However, let's get our facts straight at least... the best independently written biography of Hubbard (which, by the way, paints him in a very unfavorable yet likely accurate way) does not make this claim. Please provide a source for this information! (P.S. you can find the biography free online here: www.clambake.org... ... it's a great read, very interesting.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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I dont think I called members by name anything. Scientology is a cult, plain and simple.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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Brook Shields responded to Cruises remarks in the New York Times. She says that Cruise and Scientologists in general do not understand post-partum depression. She is correct. As far as I can tell, Cruise has never passed a child, or anything similar. He may have children, but for a man, there is more exhaustion than depression in regards to a newborn.

And telling Matt Lauer that the Tom Cruise understands this psudo-science of psychology better than anyone is really whacky. I have no doubt that he may have studied up on it, but hes not being objective about his statements. He is using his 'religious' beliefs to base a blanket statement on this issue.

This is like the whole mainstream religion against all these rights for same-sex relationships. The religious groups are wrong on this subject, but are basing this on thier narrow views of how things are 'suppose' to be.

And I can base Cruises lunatic antics on these various shows to him being kooky. That was as public as someone like him gets, and unless he was acting to broaden interest in his new movie, (which is also entirely possible) he displayed exactly how nutty he is.

Now Im not saying that all Scientologists are like this. But there has been a recent and exhaustive interest in Tom Cruise. I have no influence on this, but I suspect that major media outlets think that he is crazy as well. Not only that, these lame ass reporters and interviews are barely touching on this Scientology issue. The thing with Matt Lauer, I think NBC had him ask Cruise about this Brook Shields thing. ANd that certainly got him all worked up.

A reasonable and understanding person (as Cruise claims he is) would not continuously interupt another person to make thier point. NBC would have let him say all that he wanted for sure. But the way that interview came out is perfect for people to see how tightly wrapped this guy is. He has to back track and defend himself and Scientology, even if the 'religion' isnt meantioned.

No matter, I will base my opinions on observable facts and actions of Cruise. By the way, anyone catch those British guys squirting him in the face last week in London? That was good. A good prannk always is a riot.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest
I have mixed feelings. I'm on meds for an issue. They don't solve the problem, they just mask it, as tom cruise points out. My quality of life is better, however, so I am grateful I have the choice to take them or not.


That's a good point. I doubt that choice will be taken away any time soon! And the fact that you realize the drugs are just masking the problem puts you head & shoulders above most people.



1) do you consider scientolgy your religion ?


Well, if someone asked my my religion, I'd say Scientology. But I don't tend to think of it that way, day-to-day. More like a useful set of tools. And I feel part of a group (not the chruch, the freezone - specifically the International Freezone Association, of which I am a staff member)...I suppose this is a somewhat religious experience. (The only good part I remember about being brought up Baptist was the fellowship...)



2) is the xenu stuff really a part of the church ?


Xenu contains a mixture of truth and lies. (I realize that's not very helpful!
You'd have to be more specific with your question to attempt to find out which is which.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by WissNX01
I dont think I called members by name anything. Scientology is a cult, plain and simple.


"Nuts" is a derogatory name, and is apparently your favorite insult. And insults, rumors, and generalities have been your main "contributions" to this thread.






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