Scientology a Cult?

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posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan


sca
It seems odd for a religion to have a 'penance bootcamp.'

Is it tho? Lots of religions do get into sacrifice and mortification of the flesh and the like. Heck, apparently the scientologists strain the body, but don't flagellate it or anything like that.


[edit on 20-6-2005 by Nygdan]


I do not refer to the standard penance practices of various religions. I know several religions have various differing measures of penance for the individual, however I have never heard of a specific camp for such a purpose. The closest thing I could remember was perhaps something like Bible Camp for children, however that is not decreed to be necessary for punishment of sins or wrong-doings (even though the kids may feel that way). As was stated by anxietydisorder,


Originally posted by anxietydisorder
Sent, but not served. I've known people sent to the RPF. I don't think I would want to go through that program. I can't stand rice and beans, and I hate running and hard work.


I took this to mean, based on your (Nygdan's) question initially regarding 'discipline,' that RPF is a sort of camp where you are sent for misgivings or wrong-doings of some sort. I may have misunderstood.

My question, which was precluded by the passage from my post which you quoted, was


Can you go into some more detail on the RPF?


to which my 'penance bootcamp' statement was a simile of my understanding of the RPF idea, whether correct or not. My final question of that post further indicates my understanding of what the RPF might be.

Please tell me what it is that is wrong, and why it is wrong, rather than telling me that one single line taken out of context of my post is an invalid statement. I still do not have a clearer picture of what RPF or 'discipline' are in the context of Scientology. All I have been able to locate so far through Googling is that RPF stands for 'Rehabilitation Project Force,' however everything I find merely bashes it and the Scientology brainwashing ideas, rather than actually defining 'what' or 'why' it is used.





posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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Have a look at this website:

www.xenu.net...

For the full poo on Scientology and the church of Diuretics.


That's a little back-up for sabetwerk's claim that scientology is a cult.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by SimonColynAdrian

Can you go into some more detail on the RPF?


Please tell me what it is that is wrong, and why it is wrong, rather than telling me that one single line taken out of context of my post is an invalid statement. I still do not have a clearer picture of what RPF or 'discipline' are in the context of Scientology. All I have been able to locate so far through Googling is that RPF stands for 'Rehabilitation Project Force,' however everything I find merely bashes it and the Scientology brainwashing ideas, rather than actually defining 'what' or 'why' it is used.


It is used as punishment for any number of mundane reasons, including not meeting recruitment expectations, routinely making mistakes, not being able to memorize work, and any other reason that a superior might see fit.

It is a type of prison labor system, where the inmates must work their way back to a normal scientologist society. They are forced to do heavy manual labor, eat terrible food, sleep in terrible conditions and are routinely humiliated and abused mentally (there are also accounts of physical abuse).



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 03:29 PM
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The biography of Hubbard located here:

www.clambake.org...

is just a fascinating read and seems to be extremely well researched.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 03:34 PM
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Rehabilitation Project Force

Again, never been in one, but here's my understanding of RPF. RPF is a 'last chance' program exclusively for Sea Org members who have committed ethical infractions. When a Sea Org member commits an ethical infraction, they are given the choice to leave the SO, or go into RPF. It is voluntary.

The time in RPF is used for physical labour, study and audit. It is very demanding.

Because I just know you're going to ask, an example of an ethical infraction could be having an extramarital affair to stealing money from the church. Basically, doing something that goes against the church's teachings. Ethics in Scientology is an enormous subject.

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
Because I just know you're going to ask, an example of an ethical infraction could be having an extramarital affair to stealing money from the church. Basically, doing something that goes against the church's teachings. Ethics in Scientology is an enormous subject.


A lot of "political prisoners" in ethics, no?



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 04:27 PM
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And how does Scientology compare to evangelicals? hmmmmm , let me count the ways

Whether or not the leaders target the rich, they both seem to attract rich members.
US-evangelicals making over $40,000 make up the majority of members in a recent church membership survey
Scientology has maybe 50,000 members total worldwide- what they charge or how much $money they make - don't know

They both have some kind of camp for keeping the members in line. i.e. the 'gay camp' for evangelicals.

I would think that suppressive personalities would be drawn more to the popular Christian dogma because it is much more easier for them to follow the rightousness path than to confront their own personality quirks in the techs of Scientology -

Nobody seems to be taking Madonna down for her beliefs- or maybe they are?

Wiccan are religiously tolerant- But most 'other' religions don't tolerate other beliefs- Buddhism is the only other one I can think of offhand.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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Well, it's not too hard to break an ethic's guideline. Particularily when the executive management of the church changes them to suit their moods.


As for 'prisoners', not sure on that. From my understanding, they can leave whenever they want. They will just not be in the church anymore. If you mean 'political prisoners' in that they are sent there for questioning the church or policies, that would certainly apply.

I think a lot of people in SO would rather go to RPF than leave the church. They have invested a lot of time and money in their 'salvation', and don't know that they can practice the tech outside the church, in the freezone, for a lot less money.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 05:22 PM
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Okay so maybe Ron Hubbard did not technically die by putting a 45 to his head, but he might as well have.

whyaretheydead.net...

Why dont you look over this web page and ask your self why all these people died.

By the way I think it was actually Bob Mills, who killed himself with the 45 to the head.

LRH even told his OWN WIFE that she should commit suicide.

Yeah this is someone to look up to.

And I think very much qualifies being called a cult.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 06:24 PM
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I have never been on the RPF, so I have no personal experience, I can only relate what I have witnessed, and it is a very demanding program.
I did go through the EPF (Estates Project Force) and have done the Purification Rundown, (plus others, but those were the most physically demanding)

Two members have posted about the RPF, Duzey and sebatwerk.


Originally posted by Duzey
Rehabilitation Project Force

Again, never been in one, but here's my understanding of RPF. RPF is a 'last chance' program exclusively for Sea Org members who have committed ethical infractions. When a Sea Org member commits an ethical infraction, they are given the choice to leave the SO, or go into RPF. It is voluntary.

The time in RPF is used for physical labour, study and audit. It is very demanding.

Because I just know you're going to ask, an example of an ethical infraction could be having an extramarital affair to stealing money from the church. Basically, doing something that goes against the church's teachings. Ethics in Scientology is an enormous subject.

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Duzey]



sebatwerk: It is used as punishment for any number of mundane reasons, including not meeting recruitment expectations, routinely making mistakes, not being able to memorize work, and any other reason that a superior might see fit.

It is a type of prison labor system, where the inmates must work their way back to a normal scientologist society. They are forced to do heavy manual labor, eat terrible food, sleep in terrible conditions and are routinely humiliated and abused mentally (there are also accounts of physical abuse).


I must say that Duzey presents a much more realistic concept of the RPF than sebatwerk.

Also: SimonColynAdrian made mention of a "camp" for the RPF.

As far as I know, this is not true. RPF members worked within Orgs. and on the Bases. They were not shipped off to places unknown to serve their time.
sebatwerk has an idea that Scientology runs a gulag, and that's just not the case.


sebatwerk has been labeled an S.P. No further communication will follow.



Just kidding sebatwerk: Your questions are valid, even if you base them on websights that only attack Scientology. You might want to base your conclusions on more than hearsay and get some real world experience.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by anxietydisorder
sebatwerk has an idea that Scientology runs a gulag, and that's just not the case.

sebatwerk has been labeled an S.P. No further communication will follow.

Just kidding sebatwerk: Your questions are valid, even if you base them on websights that only attack Scientology. You might want to base your conclusions on more than hearsay and get some real world experience.


I should have clarified that yes, most of what I am posting does come from biased websites. No, I do not believe all this, I realize there are many sides to every story, and history has been rewritten by the differing accounts of parties involved. I'm a Freemason, and I deal with posts from people who are simply repeating what they read on biased websites every day of my life. Trust me, I'm not that ignorant.

That being said, I do believe that there have been (hopefully) isolated incidents of things occurring within the church that are not what one might expect from an institution which is designed to help people. From the research that I and my friend have done, I have found MANY things that I personally don't agree with, but if someone WANTS to go through something like that, I am nobody to stop them.

The only REAL problem that I have with the church is its "fair game" policy, and the fact that it [ab]uses our court system to personally destroy its enemies. I also don't agree with their position against psychology and mental health.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 06:53 PM
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I have been reading a bit about The Church of Scientology on the internet. I was just out in CA and saw their really big HQ which I thought looked a bit odd for a "church".

I have been reading this page:

en.wikipedia.org...

and this anti site to see what the haters have to sayI have been reading a bit about The Church of Scientology on the internet. I have always heard the stories about how their cult. How Ron Hubbard started it to get rich, and was once quoted by a friend as saying something along the lines of if you want to get really rich, start a religion! I have also heard about how people have problems when they try to leave. Problems as in being physically threatened and even attacked!

Well I was just out in CA and saw their really big HQ which I thought looked a bit odd for a "church". I have been reading about them and want to know what ATS users know and think about them?

I have been reading this page:

en.wikipedia.org...

This is an anti site to see what their opponents have to say

www.xenu.net


My questions are the following:

Are they are real religion or just a cult masquerading as one?

Why are so many Hollywood stars into Scientology?

Why do they seem to stop at nothing to prevent people from leaving?

Do they have any deep secrets or are they affiliated with any secret societies?

Thanks



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 07:49 PM
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I never wanted to get into a debate over this, I just wanted to give whatever I know to the people that are interested.

I spent a lot of time inside the church and was a staff member in a local Org. (Div. 6), before I joined the Sea Org.

I NO LONGER HAVE ANY CONTACT WITH THE CHURCH!
AND I AM NOT PRO/CON SCIENTOLOGY!

As a baby I was baptized Anglican, my father converted to Catholicism when I was 8. In my early teans I explored the Hare Krishna and several other eastern religions. At about 17 I started looking at Scientology.

I have to base my opinions on what I have experienced. And what I have seen inside the church.

Most of the scandles that I have seen in the media, I have no knowledge of.
I know some of the names, but was not there when the crimes were committed. And like many large groups, they have had members commit crimes.
And they have been prosecuted for those crimes.

I have no knowledge of the Freemason organization, and I will reserve comment until I have a better understanding of your organization. But I hope I can count on you when I have questions, and I hope you will give me an honest answer, without bias...........



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by anxietydisorder
I never wanted to get into a debate over this, I just wanted to give whatever I know to the people that are interested.

I spent a lot of time inside the church and was a staff member in a local Org. (Div. 6), before I joined the Sea Org.

I NO LONGER HAVE ANY CONTACT WITH THE CHURCH!
AND I AM NOT PRO/CON SCIENTOLOGY!


I am not trying to debate either! I think you have mistaken my position, and my attitude towards you. Sorry for the misunderstanding, plelase don't think I'm trying to be argumentative or anything of the sort.



I have to base my opinions on what I have experienced. And what I have seen inside the church.

Most of the scandles that I have seen in the media, I have no knowledge of.
I know some of the names, but was not there when the crimes were committed. And like many large groups, they have had members commit crimes.


I hope that your experience with the church is the same as the majority of members. Undesired incidents and bad people exist in every organization. It's inevitable. An organization should be judged by its majority, anyone who attempts to condemn an organization for the actions of a few is extremely ignorant.



I have no knowledge of the Freemason organization, and I will reserve comment until I have a better understanding of your organization. But I hope I can count on you when I have questions, and I hope you will give me an honest answer, without bias...........


You can absolutely count on me to give you all the information you seek regarding Freemasonry. Unlike many people here believe, Freemasons are not required to lie about the Craft to others, and the things we have vowed to keep private are very few indeed. Just ask and I will give you most accurate answer I can.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 08:27 PM
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While I appreciate the MANY people who have posted the site www.xenu.net... as informational, the site is also aimed completely at Bashing the Scientology movement and is therefore a one-sided argument. I will concede, through my own Googlings, that there are FAR more anti-Scientology sites than pro-Scientology sites, and this moreso, if only in public opinion, illustrates the oddities of the 'Religion.' While we have had few first-hand accounts, I look now to those who have had first-hand experiences, simply for the lack of pro-Scientologist media on the internet. If anyone can shed some more light on the positive aspects of Scientology (at least to obtain a Scientology point of view that is strongly lacking in the internet website community) it woudl be greatly appreciated.

On a lighter note, did anyone else see the scientologist Tom Cruise sprayed with water from the fake microphone by the fake reporter? Nice laugh... Although I thought he should have been a little more light-hearted about the incident, I suppose it would be rather humiliating to experience that. Anyone care to comment on his Scientology beliefs being applied in a real world, less than agreeable situation? Did he act in a 'religiously acceptable manner' by calling the guy a Jerk (4 times)? In modern day America, being what we are as people, I think the F-Bomb would have been far more effective...





posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 08:46 PM
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sebatwerk: You can absolutely count on me to give you all the information you seek regarding Freemasonry. Unlike many people here believe, Freemasons are not required to lie about the Craft to others, and the things we have vowed to keep private are very few indeed. Just ask and I will give you most accurate answer I can.


This is one of the things I like about ATS.
We can disclose information that will benifit the understanding of anyone that chooses to show an interest.
I have seen other groups demonized without foundation, and I just want to give Scientology a fair shake.

So once again, anything I know, is yours for the asking and I'll do some reading on the Freemasons.
I'm sure I'll have some questions.............

Thanks, sebatwerk



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 08:53 PM
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Here is something nice about Scientologists. The church is very active in good works. Some areas they are involved in are the environment, religious freedom, human rights and anti-drug campaigns. They also run Narconon and Criminon.

While some might say it is an evil plot, some say that about Masons too.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by SimonColynAdrian
While I appreciate the MANY people who have posted the site www.xenu.net... as informational, the site is also aimed completely at Bashing the Scientology movement and is therefore a one-sided argument. I look now to those who have had first-hand experiences, simply for the lack of pro-Scientologist media on the internet. If anyone can shed some more light on the positive aspects of Scientology (at least to obtain a Scientology point of view that is strongly lacking in the internet website community) it woudl be greatly appreciated.

On a lighter note, did anyone else see the scientologist Tom Cruise sprayed with water



It would be nice to have someone back me up on this......
In all of ATS we must have some other member that has been in Scientology.

And as far as Tom Cruise is concerned:
He confronted that feux reporter in a way that was classic Scientology. He pointed out how the reporter was wrong, and never got angry or violent.

(he had no idea of what was sprayed into his face, but he handled it in a very calm and cool manner by pointing out the mistake the person had made. He called him a "JERK" several times, nothing more........)

Don't expect a Scientologist to roll over like a subordinate dingo, that's not going to happen. Your likely going to get an alpha response.

And that's called training.


[edit on 20-6-2005 by anxietydisorder]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 09:43 PM
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I didn't see the incident so I can't really comment on it. But I think the correct approach is to confront the situation and address the offending action, without getting angry.

As for Scientologists on the boards, I will u2u one and ask him if he would like to participate, to give another perspective.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey

As for Scientologists on the boards, I will u2u one and ask him if he would like to participate, to give another perspective.


The more people that have had expeience in the church, the more productive this discussion can be.

Any member that has first hand knowledge, I encourage you to post in this thread. GOOD OR BAD!!!!!!

I have one point of view, and it's just that, "my point of view".
The compilation of other points of view could make this story complete.





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