Europe is shouting 'No!'

Hmmm ... guess the EU isn't all it's cracked up to be, eh?
'It's the Economy over there too, stupid!' Wonder if it
will hold together, or if everyone will go back to being
soverign nations .. which the EU really takes away.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

quote from the long article (good reading!)

Europeans are shouting 'no' for one reason: it's their economies, stupid
Anatole Kaletsky
Timesonline.co.uk
May 25, 2005

WHY ARE THE PEOPLE of Europe so angry? The standard answer, as the
Germans, French and Dutch all turn against their governments, is that the
European project has gone too far and that political elites have
overreached themselves, losing touch with the ordinary people. Their
resentment about the loss of national political control to the unaccountable
Eurocrats of Brussels has finally boiled over.

The French may be voting “no” to defend their country against a European
Union which they now see as a Trojan horse for ultra-liberal Anglo-Saxon
values, while the Dutch (and the Danish and British) rejectionists may be
driven by exactly the opposite motive, believing that the EU constitution is
trying to ensnare them in a centralised, over-regulated Gallic state. But far
from discrediting the anti-EU movement, this diversity of opposition
actually accounts for the power of the revolt.

What people are voting against is not just one or other particular clause of
the constitution, nor even its general tenor, whether this is too liberal or
insufficiently so. The real bugbear is the idea of any unified constitution
that attempts to impose a single system of government on the whole of
Europe and purports to harmonise away the political philosophies,
economic preferences and social traditions developed in different nations
over hundreds of years.

MORE at the site - (long but good read!)

www.timesonline.co.uk...




[edit on 5/27/2005 by FlyersFan]

[edit on 19-9-2005 by John bull 1]

Ok, to clarify the situation a bit.
EU already exists because of dozens of already signed and ratified treaties. It won't stop to exist if this particular version of constitution is voted "no" by someone.

The typical media anti-EU articles talk about "europeans" screaming no, which is very far from the truth.

EU is a union of SOVEREIGN countries, it already exists as such.

Nine countries have finished ratifying the treaty: Austria, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain.

All these europeans screamed "yes", they want it.

Considering that we are the union of sovereign states, nobody in EU ever even claimed anything else, it is perfectly normal in such democratic union for member states to have DIFFERENT opinions on certain matters. We had that before, we modified treaties and they were then voted "yes".
Normal everyday happenings in modern economic union of sovereign independent countries.

Quote:

"If Ireland votes No in the referendum, it would not be the first time. Voters rejected the Nice Treaty in 2001, then approved it in 2002.....

....Denmark rejected the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 but adopted it in a second vote, after winning opt-outs, in 1993."

So, apart from those who have already ratified the constitution, the rest of EU is still to vote on it, more detailed unbiased info can be found here:

news.bbc.co.uk...


Those interested in this topic might wanna check out a few threads on this same subject on PTS:

politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
politics.abovetopsecret.com...




[edit on 27-5-2005 by paperclip]

You European apologists are getting pretty disgusting.

The Netherlands has been hit by a body blow to the gut with the the EU. The Netherlands pays the highest per capita tax rate to the EU, and the guilder was traded in at an unfairly low value to the euro which caused high inflation within the country.

It wasn't good for them!

Originally posted by paperclip
Nine countries have finished ratifying the treaty: Austria, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain.

Austria: Parliament Ratified
Germany: Parliament Ratified
Greece: Parliament Ratified
Hungary: Parliament Ratified
Italy: Parliament Ratified
Lithuania: Parliament Ratified
Slovakia: Parliament Ratified
Slovenia: Parliament Ratified
Spain: Referendum

So only one of which you listed actually gave the people the choice, the rest had the Government decide what was best, yes some had polls that showed high public support, but we must remember that polls don't take into account the full voting population and can be made to show false public support.

[edit on 27-5-2005 by UK Wizard]

Flyers, do you know what the EU is?
Do you even know where europe is?
Or the best question is, why are you putting it down?

UK_Wizard, from what I have read here in austrian and some german newspapers, the Constitution is widely suported by people. Of course there are voices of opposition, but in cases like this, the parties vote based on the opinion on people who support them, so that they can still count on the same number of voters on next elections.
In Austria the vote was unanimous, even oposition voted yes, because people do support it, regardless of which party they support.
I think that in Germany it wasn't that unanimous, but the majority wanted it nevertheless.


djohnsto77, I refuse to accept such simplified and misleading label

A lot of europeans are very well aware of the troubles with euro, but we differ in how to solve the problem. One side wants a solution within current situation meaning keeping the euro, the other group wants to get rid of euro and solve the problem that way. Those who want euro to stay are majority.
We all agree on the fact that economic reforms are needed though.

Actually the whole discussion on this comes down to whether a more social or more conservative economic policy is needed. A few european states show that social democracy (also mislabeled as socialism by those not familiar with european democracy) is a good model, while in some other countries that model seems to have failed.
There has been a lot of changes in EU member states regarding ruling parties in the last 15 years. They shifted from conservative to social democrats to conservative again in some countries, and then back to social democracy now.
There is no simple answer to this really.

Constitution is used by political parties to sway voters in their direction by association. Example: my oponent supports constitution. He also supported certain reforms that failed, so by association everything he supports will fail. So vote no for Constitution. Something like that is happening in France and Britain.



In the end, you can say that we europeans do not deal in absolutes. Both sides are mixed with eachother and every year the balance is being somewhat shifted depending on the current state of affairs.

Originally posted by paperclip
UK_Wizard, from what I have read here in austrian and some german newspapers, the Constitution is widely suported by people. Of course there are voices of opposition, but in cases like this, the parties vote based on the opinion on people who support them, so that they can still count on the same number of voters on next elections.
In Austria the vote was unanimous, even oposition voted yes, because people do support it, regardless of which party they support.
I think that in Germany it wasn't that unanimous, but the majority wanted it nevertheless.

What I was trying to highlight was the mass of Governments who were simply going ahead with apparent public opinion without using a referenda, why is it the people aren't being given the vote, why is it the Government feel so sure that the people would back them, is it possible they fear that public opinion isn't what they think it is.
The EU constitution is going to make big changes, if it is so important for Europe why is it the people don't get a voice in its design.

hmmm

UK Wizard, I see what you are trying to say, that the support of the Constitution might just be an illusion, since the people never actually voted on it. Interesting thought.

I am thinking though, even if we didn't vote on it here, we still have the right and the oportunity to say what we think about it. If there was a wide-spread disagreement with the decision of the parliament, it would have transpired in the media, newspapers, tv shows etc, etc or in everyday conversations between people. The word gets out. So far, all comments have been positive.

Oh, on a side note, I found a nice link with a short explanation of what the Constitution actually is:

news.bbc.co.uk...

One can always count on BBC to sumarize things perfectly. Kudos.

Germany said yes to the constitution without going to the public in a referendum because they know it be a no vote too. democracy at work eh...

The EU is hitlers dream minus the bullets.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Flyers, do you know what the EU is?
Do you even know where europe is?
Or the best question is, why are you putting it down?

I'll answer those redundant questions with some questions of my own:
Do you know where Europe is?
Do you know what the EU means and implies?
Are you aware that the EU is falling apart at the seams?




seekerof

[edit on 27-5-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by rustiswordz
Germany said yes to the constitution without going to the public in a referendum because they know it be a no vote too. democracy at work eh...

The EU is hitlers dream minus the bullets.

Too bad I don't have any Way Above votes left this month, this statement is certainly worth it.

The EU is not working. Many nations with our own taxes, cultures, ideas all being lumped together under one roof. Wont happen.

They say it will prevent war. Its more chance of starting one when everyones economies collapse and everyone fed up of the select elite telling us how to run our lives. everyone will want their old nations back and if the powers that be tell them no. We run the risk of a conflict 20 odd years from now making the break up of the former yugoslavia look like a schoolyard punch up.

The EU is a dangerous, undemocratic, immoral experiment that has all the hallmarks of becoming very destructive. Both if it breaks up and socially if it suceeds turing its people into Pollitically Correct zombies.

Go my french cousens give them a NON from me.

Originally posted by Seekerof



I'll answer those redundant questions with some questions of my own:
Do you know where Europe is?
Do you know what the EU means and implies?
Are you aware that the EU is falling apart at the seams?




seekerof

[edit on 27-5-2005 by Seekerof]

I imagine he does know where Europe is, he lives in Scotland...

The Eu is all about countries with long histories and complex cultures and traditions working together.

Something the US will never have with another country.

The EU is not falling apart at the seams Seeker, I know you are an intelligent person so I am suprised by that staement.

Originally posted by Seekerof
I'll answer those redundant questions with some questions of my own:
Do you know where Europe is?

I live in it.....

Do you know what the EU means and implies?

An economical union....

Are you aware that the EU is falling apart at the seams?
[edit on 27-5-2005 by Seekerof]

Yes, but thats the way with most alliances, unions and relationships, they tend to be fragile.

Originally posted by rustiswordz


The EU is hitlers dream minus the bullets.

I cannot believe you just Godwin-ed this thread!
I mean, come on! Let it go awhile longer before refering to Hitler

Anyways, EU is nothing like Hitler's dream of a chosen race ruling over Europe.

We run the risk of a conflict 20 odd years from now making the break up of the former yugoslavia look like a schoolyard punch up.

The difference between Yugoslavia and EU is that Yugoslavia destroyed national identities, deleted history and united everyone as some hybrid equals under the motto of "Brotherhood and Unity".
EU is different. All EU members still have their national identity, language, history, presidents, parliaments... or do you know of any EU state who has lost this?

everyone fed up of the select elite telling us how to run our lives. everyone will want their old nations back

...In which another selected elite tells us how to run our lives.
Come on, there isn't a country where people actually have power, such country only exists in minds of those longing for the non-existent good old times. The whole point of democracy is to choose people who decide for you.
EU functions the same way. People get elected, if they do not fulfil their duties and do not have the means to keep themselves in power, they get replaced by another elected candidate.

The democratic process of EU is based on democratic process already existant in member countries.
Now, it is of course debatable if such system is good or bad.

Kriz_4....
So let me get this straight.
Because I or FlyerFan lives in the US, its OK for a "Scot" to question whether 'we' know where Europe is, but it is wrong for me to question a 'Scot' with the same question?! Ironic, huh?

As for my assertion that the EU is falling apart at the seams...certainly no need to be surprised. Simply consider it a prediction.





seekerof

Originally posted by rustiswordz
Germany said yes to the constitution without going to the public in a referendum because they know it be a no vote too. democracy at work eh...

The EU is hitlers dream minus the bullets.

Thats just a BIT opinionated and biased but hey treat it like a fact and see what happens.

Originally posted by Seekerof


As for my assertion that the EU is falling apart at the seams...

seekerof

Seekerof, I am curious, why exactly do you think EU is falling apart?
I mean, those are heavy words.
Certainly there are problems in EU, but considering it is new and young and only recently admitted the former eastern block countries into the Union, such problems are to be expected. Nothing indicates that it might fall apart soon though.
At least I do not see any indications.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Kriz_4....
So let me get this straight.
Because I or FlyerFan lives in the US, its OK for a "Scot" to question whether 'we' know where Europe is, but it is wrong for me to question a 'Scot' with the same question?! Ironic, huh?

As for my assertion that the EU is falling apart at the seams...certainly no need to be surprised. Simply consider it a prediction.





seekerof

No need to get defensive Seeker, I was by no means having a go at you.

I just figured since the guy lives in Europe, he would know where it is.

As for him asking if Flyer knew, well that was obviously trying to be provocative, I am more then sure most Us citizens are aware of where Europe is. I was in no way implying either of you had more right to ask the question. I did not think I suggested that, if it seemed that way it was not meant do.

Fair enough if it was a prediction rather than a factual statement.

I predict the EU will become stronger and will likely outgrow the US around the same time China and India become super powers. I also predict that the EU will likely have stronger relationships by that time.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Flyers, do you know what the EU is?
Do you even know where europe is?
Or the best question is, why are you putting it down?

Snotty snotty snotty Devilwasp, I thought better of you than this.
I make one opinion that the EU isn't what it is supposed to be and
that it takes away a nations soverignty ... and I get THIS crap from
you?

Not that it is any of your business - I honeymooned in Switzerland
for two weeks (very nice), went to Germany (it was okay), went to
France (it stunk, literally), went to Northern Italy (nice), and also
Liechtenstein (can't spell it, but it was quaint).

My husband is first-generation-American .. his father was born and
raised in Switzerland. He (we) still have many relatives there and
we are all in contact. My grandfather-in-law was the conductor of
the Swiss National Orchestra for many years.

'OTHER' countries in that general area that I have been to - Yugoslavia,
Bosnia and Croatia. I lived with a Croatian family in the mountains
for a week. They spoke no English. I spoke no Croatian. It was
interesting.

And to answer your question - I wasn't 'putting it down' I was
expressing my opinion, which I'm allowed to do, that the EU
takes away a nation's soverignty.

Now, considering the bull crap you have posted about America ....
you don't have a leg to stand on complaining about someone
not liking the EU.


[edit on 5/27/2005 by FlyersFan]