Europe is shouting 'No!'

Originally posted by spymaster
Well cheers sminkey for your very informative reply..thankyou.

- You are welcome, always up for a decent debate .

the u.k. is stable in the sense that it hasnt got civil war breaking out all over the place.

- Even Churchill recognised that until the day Britain can be uprooted and moved much further away Europe is Britain's destiny.
No point excluding European history from Britains in this regard.

reduced trading costs, sorry sminkey i personally think you are wrong there mate?

- The whole world operates with various tariffs on trade.
That is why the world's biggest single market (of approx 450million people with western level disposable incomes), which we are already part of, is of such benefit to the UK.
We have access to it at no additional costs/charges.

im just wondering is that the same with the euro?

- Well on this one time will tell, however we do get a good idea from the fact that it is already the 2nd largest currency in the world backed by many of the richest countries in the world.
In short it will be a success because it is already far to important and big for the rest of the world to let it fail.

how many more countries will need financial assistance before they are able to give back..where does its stop?

- In the EU's case it stops with the handful of countries in need of such restructuring.
No point complaining about the short-term pain when there is manifestly such long-term gain to be had.

you cant have it both ways:
you cannot in one hand say its ok to allow free movement of people under this rule., and abide by this because it suits you (i dont mean you personally sminkey)
and then on the other hand under the SAME rule say well we will only allow (on a recomendation basis) you to bring 3200 cigarettes into the uk.

- OK but you would also be well within your rights to point out which parts of what are down to whom.

You can hardly blame the EU for something the UK gov decides, right?

no mate im not saying that the particular point was ALL about the eu but in my line of business at the time it was. i know parallel trade is a worldwide thing, but it has a lot to do with the ''so-called home market'' and in turn the government, and if you want to be in the eu then the eu is your home market.

- OK, all I can say is that my understanding of this is that it reaches well beyond the EU and to trading agreements made globally.
Some of those agreements were bilateral (as in the case of the Japanese gov and the EU regarding motorcycles) and some made at WTO level with the EU.

In any event this was not something that was dictated simply on a whim coming down from the EU one day.
It was some seriously heavy-duty international stuff.

well it does in a sense beacuse:
you are either in the eu or not its that simple, you cant just flout/change the laws as and when you see fit?

- No.
This is trying to have it both ways.
You cannot blame the EU because of the national policies of the UK gov.

This situation is totally out of step with the tax or import policy of the other EU member national govs, which was decided by those national govs, not the EU..

This cannot be laid at the EU's door.

the u.k. has had a good growth standard for a long time peoples living standards seem to be ok, we could always have more and better.

- You'll find that since WW2 UK growth has been patchy to say the least; compared to EEC/EU growth over the long term we don't have too much to shout about (and focusing in on the last decade, as UK politicians love to do is hardly the entire story nor much acknowledgement of the impact of our own EU membership which might have something to do with it too, no?)

you wrote:i dont think that the body of the eu will be as 'one ' when it comes to international law

- In many many respects we already are, that can only deepen and grow.

as this has already come up against some problems, only this week with countries now being told that they MUST charge an individual or company under european law even if its not breaking the law in that particular country of residence?

- There will always be specific examples of problems from time to time.
It isn't ever going to be otherwise.
That is part of the point; even within it's own terms the EU is not some sort of monolithic dictatorship; it a collective operating by agreement, warts and all.
It isn't perfection, nor will it ever be.

the u.k. hasnt done so bad in the past on its own?

- But regardless of the past the fact is that now the only way for the UK to afford some of these things is by cooperating and cost-sharing with our partners.
Even the USA is coming up against the same constraints and looking to share costs in this way with Europe and the Japanese for example.
Partnership is inevitable if we wish to progress.

well this is where we really differ i do not see myself as british but ENGLISH, it seems to me 'anyone ' can be british, and in no way am i a royalist.

- We can all see ourselves anyway we like now but the fact remains that until very recently (the introduction of the ECHR?) you were technically speaking a subject, a piece of mere Royal property.

personal human freedom and rights IMO went out the window when we allowed anyone to complain about anything and to then get paid for it..
again this law or ruling seems to change when it suits people.

- I'm sorry I don't know what you mean here.

i dont think that eu will stop this, this problem is, was and alwyas be because of cheaper labour, cheaper shoody goods from the far east.
the fact that u.k companies are moving call centers to places like india is ridiculous, but alas cheap labour... the fact that you cant understand them or they want to talk about the weather before they ask you your mothers maiden name is stupid.
uk being part of the eu WILL NOT stop this.

- You can't 'outsource' everything and faced with competition from the cheap end of the market you do what the developed world always does, move upmarket to the expensive high skills sector that the cheap countries and bottom, cheap labour intensive, end of the market cannot compete in.

When or if they catch up with that move then we will have to adapt and move market again and so on; it will not stop, you are right about that.

Nevertheless you cannot deny that British and European living standards have done nothing but rise to new record heights since the formation of the EEC/EU and our membership of it.

.how can you have FREEDOM OF SPEECH when political correctness has to vett it?

- Sorry but I don't buy that anti-PC stuff.
To me 'PC-ism' is simply about removing the prejuducial labels and treating people with a reasonable and fair degree of respect.

In any event there never has been any such thing as completely 'free' speech.
You are free to say what you like (and still are) but your speech may have consequences.
Legal ones.
Like libel or slander.

I'm not in the least bit bothered that incitement to hatred has been added to that as I have lived at various times in a place (Northern Ireland) where such incitement has caused enormous amounts of trouble, pity we didn't have it sooner and nick and put away the Paisleys of this world a long time ago.

In any case that kind of thing has come from laws passed by the UK Parliament, not the EU.

well sminkey
i'll gladly take my hat off to you!!
you ''out-sourced'' me on this one mate, your answeres were informative again and well written and to the point, however i STILL DO NOT AGREE WITH the eu, and think that we should stay away from it, but thats IMO.
im going to have a read up and see if i can back at ya with some intelligent answeres......till then
cya .............SAY NO TO THE euro
sorry had to get that in mate

Once again you are welcome; it'd be a very boring place if we all thought and said the same thing.

Its rare that should happen.....

Someone actually taking their hat off to someone else......

You see something new and wonderful everyday....