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Europe is shouting 'No!'

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posted on May, 27 2005 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Because I or FlyerFan lives in the US, its OK for a "Scot" to question
whether 'we' know where Europe is, but it is wrong for me to question
a 'Scot' with the same question?! Ironic, huh?


Yep. He can insult our intelligence and question our basic map
reading skills. It's also okay for that Scot to slam dunk America
every chance he gets. But it's not okay for me to voice my
opinion that I feel the EU takes away a nations soverignty.
I didn't even yell it. I was rather low key with it.
Some people are soooooooooooooooo silly!




posted on May, 27 2005 @ 10:51 AM
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If you read on the US history, compromises have been made among the founding states, regarding to how much sovereignty a state could have and how to balance it with the Federal power. Somehow this doesn't seem to bother the EU bashers here.

As to what EU contries "stink" vs which don't... It's always a matter of preference. I am an American and I live in the US, and like it here, but I also lived in France for a long time and I thought it was a beautiful country with amazing scenery, great wine
, interesting food and a peculiar national spirit. Yeah, it's different from the US. But look, the Bronx is also different from the West Coast


I think that EU is a great project. It's a dificult one, too. Good luck to the EUers.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by rustiswordz
Germany said yes to the constitution without going to the public in a referendum because they know it be a no vote too. democracy at work eh...

The EU is hitlers dream minus the bullets.

Thats just a BIT opinionated and biased but hey treat it like a fact and see what happens.


Damn right that it is because its the truth.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by rustiswordz
The EU is hitlers dream minus the bullets.


- Such an absurd comment not only indicates your own lack of proportion but also demeans the reality of the horrors of Hitlers gang.

IMO it is ludicrous and exceptionally pathetic to seriously attempt to draw a parallel between the totalitarian conquest and defeat of the sovereign nations of Europe by the nazi dictatorship of Germany to the voluntary cooperation and union of today's free democratic Europe.

Hitler never dreamt of anything like todays free cosmopolitan Europe.

Wise up.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
You European apologists are getting pretty disgusting.


- What's up? The facts getting in the way? Again?


The Netherlands has been hit by a body blow to the gut with the the EU. The Netherlands pays the highest per capita tax rate to the EU


-
Once again the facts get in the way.

The EU does not set the national taxes in the Netherlands; the Dutch Parliament set their national taxes, actually.



and the guilder was traded in at an unfairly low value to the euro which caused high inflation within the country.


- You 'll find the facts are that the Guilder was a component of the ERM (the European Exchange Rate Mechanism) for several years before the Euro came along.

The rate at which the Guilder sat within the ERM was directly the responsibility of the Dutch Parliament and was (within a 2.5% band of movement) the rate at which it entered the Euro.

Once again, sorry but it is absolutely clear, you simply have no clue about what you are talking about and you are spreading sheer ignorance.


It wasn't good for them!


- The euro has seen trade rise across Europe, no doubt like all big changes it will take a while for it all to work out (as when the UK went decimal); sadly some will take advantage initially etc but nevertheless the benefits to cross European trade are clear.

Whatever you imagine about the Euro it is here to stay.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Are you aware that the EU is falling apart at the seams?


- It isn't.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Snotty snotty snotty Devilwasp, I thought better of you than this.
I make one opinion that the EU isn't what it is supposed to be and
that it takes away a nations soverignty ... and I get THIS crap from
you?


Snotty?
You make an opinion and try to present it as a fact.
Also held in any regard apart from "commie, liberal, terrorist loveing, anti american tulipwalkeer" by you?
Thats a first.
Also its not takeing away ANY soverignty.


Not that it is any of your business - I honeymooned in Switzerland
for two weeks (very nice), went to Germany (it was okay), went to
France (it stunk, literally), went to Northern Italy (nice), and also
Liechtenstein (can't spell it, but it was quaint).

My husband is first-generation-American .. his father was born and
raised in Switzerland. He (we) still have many relatives there and
we are all in contact. My grandfather-in-law was the conductor of
the Swiss National Orchestra for many years.

'OTHER' countries in that general area that I have been to - Yugoslavia,
Bosnia and Croatia. I lived with a Croatian family in the mountains
for a week. They spoke no English. I spoke no Croatian. It was
interesting.

You have just proved my theory wrong that 90% of americans dont knnow where europe is...


And to answer your question - I wasn't 'putting it down' I was
expressing my opinion, which I'm allowed to do, that the EU
takes away a nation's soverignty.

You where putting it down.
You where expressing an opinion and try to base it as a fact.



Now, considering the bull crap you have posted about America ....
you don't have a leg to stand on complaining about someone
not liking the EU.

Bull crap?
I hold america in high regard, some of its citizens I dont but the majority I respect.
I have 2 legs to stand on thank you very much.


Originally posted by rustiswordz
Damn right that it is because its the truth.
[/quote
But it isnt....


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 08:11 PM
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I think if your going to see your European dream exist then your in for a disappointment , if the French don't say no the British will in big numbers.



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

You make an opinion and try to present it as a fact.


Your response was snotty. I was rather calm and said my
opinion that the EU wasn't good for soverignty. I said it nicely
without any fanfare and without saying anything like 'those
idiots ...etc. You were snotty.


Also held in any regard apart from "commie, liberal,
terrorist loveing, anti american tulipwalkeer" by you?


Can't follow you on this one. I have no idea what you are talking
about. I don't know what an 'anti-American tulip walkeer' is and
I have never heard of this. What the heck is a 'tuplip walker'?
I haven't called anyone a commie that I'm aware of . Liberal?
Sure. But most liberals love to be called a liberal. Terrorist lover?
hmmm again I don't think I have used those words. It's possible, but
certainly not on this thread. 'Terrorism enabler' perhaps. I think you have
lumped all the people who lean to the right together and made them one
big 'rightie' in your mind.


Also its not takeing away ANY soverignty.



Okay. So that's your opinion. You are welcome to it.
I see it differently. I said just the opposite, and I said it
in the same manner. This drew the snotty response from
you.


You have just proved my theory wrong that 90%
of americans dont knnow where europe is...


Now I'll interject something personal. That's a stupid theory.
You are welcome to your opinion, but to (as you say) present
that as fact would be in great error and I would challenge it
requesting some stats to back that up.

For goodness sake devilwasp - Looks like you are just trying
to pick a fight. Your response to a very simple and polite
opinion was bizzare and over the top.

I have seen you post A GREAT DEAL of anti-american sentiments,
such as the 'opinion' that 90% of Americans don't know where
Europe is.
If you expect people to not express their opinions,
such as that the EU isn't good for soverignty, then you best not
ever express your anti-American opinions. Otherwise you are a
HYPOCRITE.



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by Bulldog 52
I think if your going to see your European dream exist then your in for a disappointment


- Er, the EU already exists and we in the UK are already a full member of it.

Like I have already said, even if the vote is "no" then the various Ministers and Prime Ministers will simply go away and revise the Treaty and then seek public approval; as has happened before in the recent past.
(see Ireland and the Nice Treaty).

It hardly signals the end of anything significant.


if the French don't say no


- The last polls this weekend show the gap is too close to call.


Latest opinion polls have provided mixed messages, one suggesting support for the "No" campaign had fallen to 52%, another that it was up to 56%

news.bbc.co.uk...

Not exactly "shouting no" afterall, hmmm?


the British will in big numbers.


- So the anti-EU mob keep telling everybody.

I'd be more than a little less definite if I were on that side of the debate; it's undeniable that the British public are well aware that they have heard the anti-EU propaganda for years and years but know they have heard little from the pro-side.

Far from the usual claims tha the British people are overwhelmingly against this there have even been recent polls in the UK showing the public evenly split on this without a campaign of support for the vote!

Jan 05 -

The referendum battle on whether Britain should sign up to the new European Union constitution is wide open, a surprising new poll suggests.

Some 39% of those surveyed for the Sunday Telegraph indicated they would vote Yes in the referendum, just two points behind the 41% who said they would vote No.

www.thisislondon.co.uk..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">
www.thisislondon.co.uk...


[edit on 28-5-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Your response was snotty. I was rather calm and said my
opinion that the EU wasn't good for soverignty. I said it nicely
without any fanfare and without saying anything like 'those
idiots ...etc. You were snotty.

I never said "those idiots" I asked an honuest question.



Can't follow you on this one. I have no idea what you are talking
about. I don't know what an 'anti-American tulip walkeer' is and
I have never heard of this. What the heck is a 'tuplip walker'?
I haven't called anyone a commie that I'm aware of . Liberal?
Sure. But most liberals love to be called a liberal. Terrorist lover?
hmmm again I don't think I have used those words. It's possible, but
certainly not on this thread. 'Terrorism enabler' perhaps. I think you have
lumped all the people who lean to the right together and made them one
big 'rightie' in your mind.

No there are no absolutes for me, this is IMO what you think of me.
If you have never heard what a "tulipwalker" is , go and ask ed...


Okay. So that's your opinion. You are welcome to it.
I see it differently. I said just the opposite, and I said it
in the same manner. This drew the snotty response from
you.

No thats a fact.


Now I'll interject something personal. That's a stupid theory.
You are welcome to your opinion, but to (as you say) present
that as fact would be in great error and I would challenge it
requesting some stats to back that up.

There was a study done not that long ago that showed most americans dont know where us brits are.
One mother thought canada had states, her children corrected her.


For goodness sake devilwasp - Looks like you are just trying
to pick a fight. Your response to a very simple and polite
opinion was bizzare and over the top.

No I am trying to present the other side of an arguement.
Polite?
Like the rest of your topics?



I have seen you post A GREAT DEAL of anti-american sentiments,
such as the 'opinion' that 90% of Americans don't know where
Europe is.

Really?
I think you will find its comments about americas faults, that you cant deny.
That is not an anti america opinion , thats just an opinion on americas education system.



If you expect people to not express their opinions,
such as that the EU isn't good for soverignty, then you best not
ever express your anti-American opinions. Otherwise you are a
HYPOCRITE.

I expect and want people to express thier opinions, but with some reasonable and justifable reason.
I express my opinions on america because its my countries ally and have been there many a time.



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by rustiswordz

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by rustiswordz
Germany said yes to the constitution without going to the public in a referendum because they know it be a no vote too. democracy at work eh...

The EU is hitlers dream minus the bullets.

Thats just a BIT opinionated and biased but hey treat it like a fact and see what happens.


Damn right that it is because its the truth.


There is no provision in the German constitution for holding referenda so even if they wanted to they couldn't have one. The reason for this is that the Nazi party abused the referendum system in Germany to push their military agenda.

German referendum dilemma



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 02:22 PM
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The dutch just said no!

63% No



posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by Chris McGee
There is no provision in the German constitution for holding referenda so even if they wanted to they couldn't have one. The reason for this is that the Nazi party abused the referendum system in Germany to push their military agenda.


The problem concerning the lack of referendum provisions in the German "fundamental law" is not the "democratic abuse" of referenda, but rather the fear of democracy by the joint Nazi/US anticommunist establishment after WW2.



posted on Sep, 18 2005 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by rustiswordz
Germany said yes to the constitution without going to the public in a referendum because they know it be a no vote too. democracy at work eh...

The EU is hitlers dream minus the bullets.

I agree with you there.

First the EU was just a business union between European nations, now it looks like the EU is taking the form of a nation. I mean, the EU has a flag, currency, all these BS (my opinion) EU directives and laws, the EU has military forces and soon the EU might even have a constitution, what's next? a president?? (Actually that has been suggested)
There is also no way out of the EU, they haven't made any procedures for resignation.

So it does take a very big piece of sovreignity from all the EU countries.

That's why I don't like the direction the EU is going, I don't support it, I think it should be reformed to a business union like it was before, and possibly renamed to 'European Business Union' (EBU) or something like that.

I'm not really what you would call a 'strong nationalist', but I would like my country back.



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by SwearBear
I agree with you there.


- Come on, trying to portray the EU as in any way similar to the nazi time is actually an insult to the suffering of those times and to be grossly ignorant of what actually happened then.

It's a grossly offensive, deeply wicked and thoroughly idiotic statement.

Think about it, huh?


First the EU was just a business union between European nations, now it looks like the EU is taking the form of a nation.


- Maybe you didn't read back through the tread but this is actually not true.

A 'trade only' organisation did exist previously (EFTA), it was a failure compared to the EEC/EU.

The EEC/EU was always meant to encourage far greater development for the peoples of Europe, way beyond mere business and narrow trade.

Quite rightly too IMO; there are most than enough trade agreements across Europe and the world, what on earth is wrong with a pan-European series of agreements that for once consider the people themselves and attempt to lift their living standards to similar levels?

Especially in view of our European history where such differences over trade and public living conditions have previously provoked such repeated horrendous wars between the countries.


I mean, the EU has a flag, currency, all these BS (my opinion) EU directives and laws, the EU has military forces and soon the EU might even have a constitution, what's next? a president?? (Actually that has been suggested)


- So?
In what way does the very limited scope of the EU's activities in these areas take over from the very nations who freely contribute to and collectively agree these activities?

The 'sovereign nation states' that comprise the EU merely choose to freely pool their limited individual sovereignty in order to exert greater actual 'sovereignty'.


There is also no way out of the EU, they haven't made any procedures for resignation.


- Well on the grounds that no-one has ever actually wanted to before I suppose it might appear there aren't any "procedures for resignation".
But what does that actually mean?

My understanding is any country is absolutely free to exit the EU anytime they choose.

Feel free to post any actual evidence you might have showing where the EU forbids resignation.


So it does take a very big piece of sovreignity from all the EU countries.


- No it doesn't.
Even in the case of directives a country can 'derogate' from the directive by amendment to the national law.


That's why I don't like the direction the EU is going, I don't support it, I think it should be reformed to a business union like it was before, and possibly renamed to 'European Business Union' (EBU) or something like that.


- You are free to hold your view of course but why do you think the EEC/EU has developed beyond a mere trading agreement it once (sort of......but even that is not quite completely accurate) was in the first place?


I'm not really what you would call a 'strong nationalist', but I would like my country back.


- No-one has taken it off of you.

No-one forced you to join and no-one is stopping you leaving should your country so choose.

Finland has been in since 1995, that's not so long ago, perhaps you might like to consider why your country's leadership (and people in a referendum) wanted to join in the first place?



posted on Sep, 19 2005 @ 10:05 PM
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To everybody out there who thinks the EU is or is soon to become the Fourth Reich you need to open your mind. Europe has a strong democratic heritage after didn't we get ours from the Brits. The EU was created first and foremost prevent the occurence of war within the continent and to assist in the reconstruction europe post WWII and has always had an eye towards an ever closer union. I don't think that a United States of Europe is in cards for the near future however as a yank I wouldn't be opposed to it. Why well a group of nations getting together after all their history and forging an institution however flawed to solve their disputes in the courts rather than the battlefield. The European Union represent the first step in realizing the common heritage of humanity. It has had it's setbacks the constitution was a dismal failure in that regard they should have taken a lesson from us Yanks that is keep it short and sweet.



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 04:11 AM
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hello forum!!
this one is mainly to sminkey (but anyone can input), sminkey i know your a very well read and intelegent person and i have crossed paths with you before and i know you are for the eu, me personally i am 100% against the eu and what it stands for.

i cant understand what benifits the u.k. would gain from going into the eu and having the euro as the currency etc, when it comes down to it , what beniefits does the average person get out of it, im not talking about the ''lord of the manor'' who can claim some 'unused eu kick-back' and fill his pockets with more hand outs to do up his mansion so in 5yrs time he can allow tourists to wander round his gardens and view his fine collections of paintings, (this never happens because there is ''always work in progress')

You know me sminkey, im 100% for the people of ENGLAND and the benefits they can gain from this, but i genuinly cannot see anything...

I admit that i havent read a great deal about it (yep i know i should have before i posted but what the heck)

Let me explain myself a bit you will probably be able to tell me where im going wrong?

In the late 90's i hade a very successfull import/export company dealing in parallel trade (for those who dont know what this is....its another thread)
the sterling has always been a strong currency to trade in ,as was the dollar and the deutch-mark, so when i was buying containers of goods if the sterling was strong i would gain out of it if it was bad i would loose, im not talking fortunes but it was an acceptable part of the proccess,
Now the euro has never really been a strong contender in that field (forgive me if im wrong).

All i hear about is when new eruo countries join ie slovkia and poland (just examples) the euro commission ie its main members states have to ''bail- them-out financially to bring their countries economic financial status to an acceptable level.

When i was in business i kept hearing the words''when it all goes through it will be 10% across the board''.
by this i mean :
IN NO MEMBER STATE SHALL THERE BE A DIFFERENCE OF MORE THAN 10 % IN DUTIES AND BUYING PRICES LEVEIED AGAINST THE CONSUMER......
to put this into straight talk what they were saying at the start was if you was a consumer in any member state you would be able to purchase any 'legal' product for your own personal use and WOULD NOT PAY MORE THAN 10% than anywhere else in the members states?

This however has become probably the biggest joke in the eu.

Look at smokers , drinkers, car buyers, taxes and duties here in the u.k they are still higher than ANY other member state...why?

The eu is meant to have an article under European Commission > DG Internal Market and Services based in brussels , that allows ''free movement of good, persons and capital''
under this agreement any person can travel freely with any member state
under this agreement any person can purchase anything within one member state and bring it to another member state without and extra duties or taxes being levied on it at its final destination.
AGAIN THIS IS A JOKE!!

People are being allowed to move freely within eu member states...
but try to bring back something (which is more or less anything) that falls into a higher tax and duty bracket to the u.k. and although you are 100% within your rights , they will make it hard as possible for you.

Sminkey i really cant think of anything that would make me want to go into the eu and be behind it? perhaps you can ellaborate on it for me
.
Dont get me wrong its not always other peoples fault on this subject i thinks its our own, mine included, im the typical ENGLISH person who moans about everything and does nothing about, i will moan about it to the wife, kids and my mates but thats it,
take the italians, french, germans, when they moan about something, they carry it on by protesting about it, and half the time getting their own way, look at the french with the beef/fish they protested moaned and got their own way, WELL DONE TO THEM!!!!!



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by spymaster
me personally i am 100% against the eu and what it stands for.


- Wow, that's some statement.
I'd just want to be sure I was spot on about what the EU actually stands for before making it!



i cant understand what benifits the u.k. would gain from going into the eu and having the euro as the currency etc, when it comes down to it , what beniefits does the average person get out of it, im not talking about the ''lord of the manor'' who can claim some 'unused eu kick-back' and fill his pockets with more hand outs to do up his mansion so in 5yrs time he can allow tourists to wander round his gardens and view his fine collections of paintings, (this never happens because there is ''always work in progress')


- Is peace stability and growth through reduced trading costs not something that benefits all?


the sterling has always been a strong currency to trade in ,as was the dollar and the deutch-mark, so when i was buying containers of goods if the sterling was strong i would gain out of it if it was bad i would loose, im not talking fortunes but it was an acceptable part of the proccess,
Now the euro has never really been a strong contender in that field (forgive me if im wrong).


- Currencies move, the £ has gone from $4/£ to $1.2/£ since the 1960's. The Euro has gone from $0.8 - $1.3 in the 4yrs since it's introduction.

The difference is that currency costs between members of the Euro (which is not all 25 EU countries) disappear, this is a 'cost' which is now no longer paid and can go to beneficial growth and, hopefully, productive economic activity.

One might consider why have a single currency in a country?
It's more or less the same writ large.


All i hear about is when new eruo countries join ie slovkia and poland (just examples) the euro commission ie its main members states have to ''bail- them-out financially to bring their countries economic financial status to an acceptable level.


- This is one of the points of the EU. This relates to a continent (for once) at peace with itself into the long term.
We all benefit when member countries that are well below the 'average' economic level rise toward the level of the better performing countries.

Just as has happened with Ireland, a country in need of funding to lift it's basic ecomonic performance and living conditions will be assisted by the 'structural fund' paid for by the others.
Again, just as with Ireland, when the performance rises to the necessary level that country will then go from being a net recipient to a net contributor of funding.
And so the process repeats with each country in need.

The rest of the community benefits in helping rebuild the country (through orders of materials, labour etc) and as the job is completed through the increased economic activity and wealth of the country.


When i was in business i kept hearing the words''when it all goes through it will be 10% across the board''.
by this i mean :
IN NO MEMBER STATE SHALL THERE BE A DIFFERENCE OF MORE THAN 10 % IN DUTIES AND BUYING PRICES LEVEIED AGAINST THE CONSUMER......
to put this into straight talk what they were saying at the start was if you was a consumer in any member state you would be able to purchase any 'legal' product for your own personal use and WOULD NOT PAY MORE THAN 10% than anywhere else in the members states?

This however has become probably the biggest joke in the eu.


- That may be but the reason for the joke is not that the EU did anything to make it so but that some of the national gov's refused to permit this free movement (the case of the UK and cigarettes is a good illustrator of this).

You mentioned the parallel import trade.
I used to be interested in this as it formed a large part of the motorcycle trade.
It was pretty much stopped in Europe IIRC because Honda threatened to go to the WTO to defend their copyright and trademark if the EU refused to act.
Google it, this is an issue that has been and is subject to huge rows across the globe, it isn't all about the EU.


Look at smokers , drinkers, car buyers, taxes and duties here in the u.k they are still higher than ANY other member state...why?

People are being allowed to move freely within eu member states...
but try to bring back something (which is more or less anything) that falls into a higher tax and duty bracket to the u.k. and although you are 100% within your rights , they will make it hard as possible for you.


- This is all about the UK exchequer trying to defend it's tax take, it has nothin to do with any EU actions.


Sminkey i really cant think of anything that would make me want to go into the eu and be behind it? perhaps you can ellaborate on it for me.


- First and foremost the longest run of peace since goodness knows when in EEC/EU Europe.

Secondly economic prosperity, growth and personal living standards unparalleled for almost all the peoples of the EEC/EU.

Thirdly influence in the world and it's international law making bodies far greater than would be possible if we were to try as single individual countries.

Forth a track record of amazing achievement together in so many areas. Space, leading edge science, electronics, computing and the aero-industry to name a few.

Fifth personal human freedoms and rights way beyond those that have ever gone before. You should appreciate that as a Briton and previously a subject (literally a piece of Royal property).

Sixth the EU genuinely acts as a counter-balance to one degree or another to inhibit a world totally and utterly dominated by the USA with international finance and trade skewed to (mainly) serve US interests alone.
(......and even with it it's bad enough already)


take the italians, french, germans, when they moan about something, they carry it on by protesting about it, and half the time getting their own way, look at the french with the beef/fish they protested moaned and got their own way, WELL DONE TO THEM!!!!!


- Everyone thinks the grass is always greener.
We just don't hear the other guys complaints, that is all (and why would we?).

Take a look around this site and see the German guys moaning about Poland, or commenting on those in their country complaining about the Euro.
Look at the French whining about (effectively) their copyright and what they see as a global infringement. Or the enormous ruin cheap wines from eastern Europe has brought their wine regions.
Or how about the Italians again complaining about their 'copyright' goods being ripped off or their financing being sent up the creek by the Euro?
How about the Greeks complaining about the impact of the new eastern European members' farm produce (no longer subject to tariffs or restrictions).

Everyone can point to problems, that's life and it's the same for all just different things come along to upset or bug us and cause varying degrees of trouble.

This would be true whether or not there even was an EU.
The thing is last time (like every time) we tried going our separate ways those kinds of problems ended up being added to and amplified and exaggerated and more and more heated until eventually with one daft spark or lunatic able to take advantage of the situation we ended up at war (once again).
Utterly ruinously.
Some think make light of that as if it is just nothing worth considering, they don't seem to know much about European (including Britain) history.

I suppose as the generations pull further and further away from it it will be forgotten more and more but I knew grandparents who went through it the full 6 years and who lost many brothers and my own uncle ruined by the war, not to mention the general effects it had on them that lived through it.

But, nevertheless, set the problems against the gains and I think it is no contest.
We are. IMO, far better off in Europe with the EU than we would be without it and on our own.

Even the idea of a European 'trade only' organisation (EFTA) was tried (and failed).
Ever since the end of WW2 & Empire the British gov has recognised the plummeting British share of world trade.
Everything was tried and the only thing that worked to stabilise the British trading position was EEC/EU membership.
Why do you think the UK spent decades(!) trying to get in?


[edit on 20-9-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Sep, 20 2005 @ 11:27 AM
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Well cheers sminkey for your very informative reply..thankyou.

BUT ...
you wrote: - Is peace stability and growth through reduced trading costs not something that benefits all?
the u.k. is stable in the sense that it hasnt got civil war breaking out all over the place..
reduced trading costs, sorry sminkey i personally think you are wrong there mate?

you wrote:Currencies move, the £ has gone from $4/£ to $1.2/£ since the 1960's. The Euro has gone from $0.8 - $1.3 in the 4yrs since it's introduction:

the sterling has always (from a trading point of veiw) been an excellent currency to deal in, there were at times in the past when you could purchase anything ,anywhere in the world with a dollar, deutch-mark or sterling..im just wondering is that the same with the euro?

you wrote:Again, just as with Ireland, when the performance rises to the necessary level that country will then go from being a net recipient to a net contributor of funding.
And so the process repeats with each country in need.

how many more countries will need financial assistance before they are able to give back..where does its stop?

you wrote: - That may be but the reason for the joke is not that the EU did anything to make it so but that some of the national gov's refused to permit this free movement (the case of the UK and cigarettes is a good illustrator of this).
thats correct but you cant have it both ways:
you cannot in one hand say its ok to allow free movement of people under this rule., and abide by this because it suits you (i dont mean you personally sminkey)
and then on the other hand under the SAME rule say well we will only allow (on a recomendation basis) you to bring 3200 cigarettes into the uk.

you wrote:You mentioned the parallel import trade.
I used to be interested in this as it formed a large part of the motorcycle trade.
It was pretty much stopped in Europe IIRC because Honda threatened to go to the WTO to defend their copyright and trademark if the EU refused to act.
Google it, this is an issue that has been and is subject to huge rows across the globe, it isn't all about the EU.
no mate im not saying that the particular point was ALL about the eu but in my line of business at the time it was. i know parallel trade is a worldwide thing, but it has a lot to do with the ''so-called home market'' and in turn the government, and if you want to be in the eu then the eu is your home market.

you wrote: - This is all about the UK exchequer trying to defend it's tax take, it has nothin to do with any EU actions.
well it does in a sense beacuse:
you are either in the eu or not its that simple, you cant just flout/change the laws as and when you see fit?

you wrote:Secondly economic prosperity, growth and personal living standards unparalleled for almost all the peoples of the EEC/EU.
the u.k. has had a good growth standard for a long time peoples living standards seem to be ok, we could always have more and better.

you wrote:Thirdly influence in the world and it's international law making bodies far greater than would be possible if we were to try as single individual countries
i dont think that the body of the eu will be as 'one ' when it comes to international law, as this has already come up against some problems, only this week with countries now being told that they MUST charge an individual or company under european law even if its not breaking the law in that particular country of residence?

you wrote:Forth a track record of amazing achievement together in so many areas. Space, leading edge science, electronics, computing and the aero-industry to name a few
the u.k. hasnt done so bad in the past on its own?

you wrote:Fifth personal human freedoms and rights way beyond those that have ever gone before. You should appreciate that as a Briton and previously a subject (literally a piece of Royal property)
well this is where we really differ i do not see myself as british but ENGLISH, it seems to me 'anyone ' can be british, and in no way am i a royalist.
personal human freedom and rights IMO went out the window when we allowed anyone to complain about anything and to then get paid for it..
again this law or ruling seems to change when it suits people.



you wrote:Ever since the end of WW2 & Empire the British gov has recognised the plummeting British share of world trade.
i dont think that eu will stop this, this problem is, was and alwyas be because of cheaper labour, cheaper shoody goods from the far east.
the fact that u.k companies are moving call centers to places like india is ridiculous, but alas cheap labour... the fact that you cant understand them or they want to talk about the weather before they ask you your mothers maiden name is stupid.
uk being part of the eu WILL NOT stop this.


.how can you have FREEDOM OF SPEECH when political correctness has to vett it?



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