Roswell: The First Witness featuring Maj. Jesse Marcel's Secret Diary

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear


There is a photograph of the Capital which has been presented as having something to do with the flap. It doesn't.

a reply to: Phage

Precisely.

But it's part of the mythology. Which was my point.

There's also the project Palladium angle.. and the possibility of it being temperature
inversions, (not necessarily over the capitol).

I'm quite underwhelmed by the 1952 incident.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: Phage

It may have been all the way back to 2014.. I was very impressed with MM's work on it..
I'm not senile (yet).

If I run across it, or MM fesses up, we can then discuss it.

There's also this related post:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I myself think the 1952 'wave' was a non-event with a prosaic explanation,
but I haven't investigated it in detail.

I'm not quite sure what you want me to "fess up" about Kev?

The 1952 UFOs over DC, whatever caused them, were real and treated seriously by the authorities. They also created international headlines and stirred up public interest in 'flying saucers'. However it is quite common to see reports that these events were witnessed by thousands of people and photos and even video footage exists. Which is not true.

There were a maybe a couple of dozen, mainly military, first hand witnesses. The majority only witnessed radar returns on screens. No genuine photos or film footage of the UFOs exists.



This photo above, and zoomed in variants of it, are often used as an illustration. But they show lens flare from the street lights below. I have also posted a letter from the architect of the Capitol Building [somewhere else on here].It confirms that the photo was definitely taken after 1963 as it shows certain structural alterations that were completed in that year.

I did speculate that the 1952 DC UFOs MAY have been something related to Project Palladium [a form of radar spoofing technology for those unfamiliar with it] was based on the quote in Ed Ruppelt's book 'The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects'.

"A few days prior to the incident, a scientist, from an agency that I can't name and I were talking about the build-up of reports along the east coast of the United States". At the end of the two hour conversation, the scientist made a prediction: ..... 'Within the next few days....they're going to blow up and you're going to have the granddaddy of all UFO sightings. The sighting will occur in Washington or New York,' he predicted, 'probably Washington.'"

The official explanation was that temperature inversions triggered false radar returns. Stars and meteors caused added confusion.

a reply to: mirageman

You just confirmed everything that I remembered, thank you.

Which is why, I personally am not 'excited' about the '1952 flap'.

Kev

As for this latest Roswell doc, I'm glad they brought up the mogul balloon theory. Though I'm always skeptical of what comes from the government, I believe it likely was a mogul balloon.

The evidence of an alien ufo and bodies IMO is not convincing. But I appreciate any honest documentary.

The only thing so far I think is dishonest or just plain out ridiculous in this one is the "expert" who is going to, after 70 years, claim he knows it wasn't a mogul balloon based on some kind of wind explanation.

Also, the two times there going to cover maybe hundreds or thousands of acres of territory with a measly metal detector handled by one guy to find 73-year old alien material is ridiculous.

If you're going to seriously do that, spend some money and do a substantial search, not one old guy wandering a few yards around a barren land and finding a couple of metal scraps and calling that a search.

The cipher thing in the diary has come up real shaky as I suspected

And the dogmatic assertions by many of the folks in the doc that "they know this was alien ufo cover-up" is to me just human nature being-- again-- sure of something they really aren't really confident of and based on second and third hand me down lore.

Maybe part three has some real surprises.

But I wouldn't bet on it.

a reply to: Willtell

Well said.

So many people go near Roswell NM, and pick up a tin can lid or something
and then feel they have 'proven Roswell'.

What I'd like to see, is what manufacturer made the shelf paper with the symbols
on it ... that would be the real deal.

originally posted by: mirageman

"A few days prior to the incident, a scientist, from an agency that I can't name and I were talking about the build-up of reports along the east coast of the United States". At the end of the two hour conversation, the scientist made a prediction: ..... 'Within the next few days....they're going to blow up and you're going to have the granddaddy of all UFO sightings. The sighting will occur in Washington or New York,' he predicted, 'probably Washington.'"

"A few days prior to the incident, a scientist, from an agency that I can't name and I were talking about the build-up of reports along the east coast of the United States". At the end of the two hour conversation, the scientist made a prediction: ..... 'Within the next few days....they're going to blow up and you're going to have the granddaddy of all UFO sightings. The sighting will occur in Washington or New York,' he predicted, 'probably Washington.'"

The official explanation was that temperature inversions triggered false radar returns. Stars and meteors caused added confusion.

Howard P Robertson?

In 1943, Robertson became the Office of Scientific Research and Development (OSRD) chief scientific liaison officer in London.[27] He became close friends with Reginald Victor Jones,[28] and Solly Zuckerman praised the work Robertson and Jones did on scrambling radar beams and beacons.[29] In 1944 Robertson also became a Technical Consultant to the Secretary of War, and the Chief of the Scientific Intelligence Advisory Section at Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force.[27] His fluency in German helped him to interrogate German scientists, including rocket scientists involved in the V-2 rocket program.[30] He was awarded the Medal for Merit for his contributions to the war effort.[10]

en.wikipedia.org...

As early as 1937, Jones had suggested that a piece of metal foil falling through the air might create radar echoes. He, together with Joan Curran, was later instrumental in the deployment of "Window": strips of metal foil, cut to a length appropriate to the radar's wavelength, and dropped in bundles from aircraft, which then appeared on enemy radar screens as "false bombers". This technology is now known as chaff and contrary to the popular belief, was also known to the Germans at the time. Both parties were reluctant to use it out of fear that their enemy would do the same: This delayed its deployment for almost two years.

Jones also served as a V-2 rocket expert on the Cabinet Defence Committee (Operations) and headed a German long range weapons targeting deception under the Double-Cross System.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I saw that in the book by Karl T. Pflock I recall has the Mogul guy identify those " alien" symbols.

a reply to: Willtell

precisely?

I've seen many pictures of similar shelf paper, but some had
like duckies on it.

Here's a new article at The Saucers That Time Forgot focusing on what Major Marcel actually said, not the myths that were spun around it. The whole credibility of Marcel was his role as intelligence officer at Roswell, that he was in a position to know what was happening. Why then, did he only see and talk about sticks and foil?

Roswell: The Major’s Testimony

They just continue on and on with this Roswell myth drawing money from the gullible. Then I feel I need to discuss the matter ad nausem. The Roswell crash was NOT Mogul flight #4. That flight would have been hundreds of feet carrying various types of equipment that were not found on the Foster ranch and that flight would have been followed and returned. What was found? Rubber strips, small balsawood members, tin-foil, heavy paper, scotch tape. You know what matches those pieces exactly? A Mogul test/service/research flight that were being launched IN CONJUNCTION with regular flights. On Wed June 4th, it is noted in Albert Crarys journal, in lieu of a Mogul flight: "Flew a regular sono buoy up in a cluster of balloons" THAT is what crashed.
End. Of. Story.
LINK

Roswell? And any other UFO incident large or small?
It seems to boil down to he said, she said, he believes, she believes, I’ve seen dead aliens, little coffins, and crashed saucers, and I’ve seen this and I’ve seen that. Or, you've seen nothing, or, what's your proof? Indeed, it all seems to be about belief underneath all of this confusion.

And just like the big belief machine: religion, it will go on and on and on until...
Well, I don’t know I guess--the end of something

Anyway…
As usual...

Time…
Willtell

...as time tells all tales
...at the end of something

FACTS set the case straight through memos, photographs, reports, etc. No need to hear tales told and believe those over actual facts. Real facts like service, research, and test flights being launched WITH Mogul flights. You never hear about this. I posted my lengthy post partly to be challenged that I'm wrong with my account and belief of what actually happened. I've never been challenged. I've never been proved wrong.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

That looks fantastic. I shall pop over there and see what you have to say about General Ramey's involvement.

Thanks for the link.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Great work, and very detailed. I was surprised when from another source got the same information and it convinced me.

Of course, they'll say it a CIA plant job. That's a lot of planting.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

You did some truly fine research!

The fact that Mogel was in an experimental stage and this:

I remember so clearly when the contractor for these targets was selected, and Jack (Peterson) thought it was the biggest joke in the world that they had to go to a toy manufacturer to make these targets. Then it was an even bigger joke when it turned out that because of wartime scarcities

Purely delightful.

Those were the two pieces of the picture of which I was not aware.

Just lovely, when 'physical reality' is so beautifully, prosaically simple.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
FACTS set the case straight through memos, photographs, reports, etc. No need to hear tales told and believe those over actual facts. Real facts like service, research, and test flights being launched WITH Mogul flights. You never hear about this. I posted my lengthy post partly to be challenged that I'm wrong with my account and belief of what actually happened. I've never been challenged. I've never been proved wrong.

A classic.

Indeed, your 2017 thread was/is one of the most impressive pieces of work I had ever read on ATS when I joined in 2018.

It helped to finally bury one of the "R" cases - in this case Roswell; it then took a little while longer to bury "Rendlesham", which has similarly been blighted by wild elaborations and fairy tales.



(PS: Happy 40th, Rendlesham! The fanboys will be commemorating Jim Penniston and John Burroughs' first trek towards a beacon at 3am Boxing Day... or, as Jim later insisted, 0000am, allowing time to circle a 'craft', make notes, etc... not realising his original USAF statement would be published in the late 90s, triggering a predictable "Oh... er... 'THEY' TAMPERED WITH MY STATEMENT!" Silly sod.)

I’m not a believer in Rendlesham which seems to be an event filled with embellishments like Roswell but at least they do have witnesses who say they saw a real type of UFO not some debris that turned into the Roswell hype.

Both eventually are dependent on folks who claim they saw weird things, particularly Roswell and the few witnesses who say they saw little coffins, dead midgets, mystery flights to Ohio with aliens, and crash material form Jupiter that one couldn’t even bend with their teeth! Also, they swear to threats were made by government agents.

In the final analysis, the evidence by Ectoplasm8 and other sources proves to me that Roswell was Project Mogul related and the believers ultimately have to believe the witnesses to the strange experiences referred to above.

Sure, it’s one time the lying-prone government is telling some truth ( since not even inveterate liars always lie)
and that is an accident of circumstances since I know the government would have no problem lying and if this were a real UFO incident, they would indeed lie….

But in terms of what one believes, it’s a standoff. Those who give credence to the witnesses and those who don’t.

So, again, we have something that we seem to neglect to emphasize: that is something or someone somewhere always wants some type of belief/disbelief conundrum to exist.

That to me, along with UFOs, is a mystery, as well.

a reply to: Willtell

It certainly appears that "Roswell" was simply a comedy of errors and a desire for collecting a reward.

But 'UFO mania' has been a useful thing for SO MANY people.. the USG at times; cult leaders at time; all sorts of people have glommed onto 'UFOs' for self-interest.

Even if there are NO nuts and bolts UFOs.

That's the real lesson in all of this.

A lesson about human nature.

One of Roswell’s claim to fame is the idea that the Army said it was a disk. So, the thinking is why would the army say it was a disk if it wasn’t.

Well, we have to understand this was all new to the world. Kenneth Arnold had only a few days previews started the UFO era with his 9 disks in the sky. For an army base to announce the finding of a crashed disk didn’t imply any aliens or UFOs from another planet simply because this was all new. We didn’t have decades of reporting of sightings of disks or abductions by little aliens at the time therefore-- in context--the story wasn’t really any big thing. So, they cavalierly announced it without realizing its implications may be what happened.

A crashed disk found had no expectations of anything extraordinary at that point since there was no background for it.

If it happened today the Army announcing finding a crashed disk, now that would be different.