Roswell: The First Witness featuring Maj. Jesse Marcel's Secret Diary

a reply to: Guest101

The headline also reads that the RAAF Captured a Flying Saucer. Nothing in fact was "captured". They had a citizen claim he had pieces from a crashed craft. Sounds like an overzealous reporter tweaking what was said to sell papers.

A typical service or test flight of balloons and radar targets launched during the time drawn by Charles Moore:


A typical weather balloon lauched by the weather service during that period:


What was found by Brazel and Marcel in the past would match the normal weather balloons. As you can see with the photograph above, weather balloons would only require a single radar target, if used. They would land intact many times also. Both Brazel and Marcel mention the size of the debris field. That would have been 3 or 4 times the size of weather balloons. That's something unusual for both of them and the fact that the debris would have been broken apart.

If this was so unusual as an alien spacecraft that traversed our galaxy or the universe and crashed on Earth, don't you think there would be ONE object found that couldn't be explained? Yet every single piece happens to describe a balloon and radar target parts? Foil, paper, small sticks, rubber. How do believers get around this? Oh there was memory metal and small beams that couldn't be bent said in 1978. Then why didn't Brazel initially mention this in 1947? Surely that's alien evidence he would have first mentioned in his newspaper interview. He physically handled the materials at least twice. He gathered pieces together and never noticed this amazing material? This is how they ignore the astronomical coincidence that it makes up OUR material.

a reply to: Guest101

Good points. And when did the dead aliens get into this?

All you hear from these guys was: I know what a weather balloon looks like and that was no weather balloon. Yeah sure... Well, then what was it? Did they know what the Mogul Weather balloon looked like?

And then there are the dead aliens or maybe even a live one...or two.
They say. Well, it was at other locations is where the dead aliens showed up later. Oh sure. Or the Feds already picked them up. Really?

All types of nonsense added to a simple story.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: Guest101
I'm not going to repeat that entire answer here, but to summarize, Brazel found what he thought was a "just a bunch of garbage", the quote provided by his daughter who says she remembers her dad saying that when he found the debris.

Now, how did it turn from "just a bunch of garbage" into a disk? The offer of a reward so large that at the time, you could buy a car with it! But the offer was not for finding "a bunch of garbage" so he couldn't call it that. To collect the reward, he had to call it a disk, so, that's what he did when he tried to collect the reward, and the rest is history. It wasn't even his original idea, it was his neighbors who suggested he might be able to collect a reward.

This doesn’t explain anything but makes it even worse…

So, a rancher approaches Major Marcel to collect a 3000 dollar reward for a flying saucer found on his ranch. Then he takes him to a field full of garbage and holds out his hand to collect the reward...

The Major was supposed to not only hand over the money, but also issue a press release that a flying disk was found..?! Doesn’t make any sense to me at all.

The FBI memo also raises a lot of question marks. A hexagonal shape suspended from a balloon is supposed to purport to be a flying disc?! Well … if I would try to mimic a flying disc I would suspend a DISC from a balloon, not a hexagonal shape.

According to this documentary, posted earlier by MM, the military did discover a disc after an aerial search of the area (the fragment starts at 10:29):

A very easy mistake to make with Roswell is to interpret the terminology used at the time as having the exact meaning today. In July 1947 the term 'flying saucer' had been coined just a few weeks earlier after Kenneth Arnold's sightings. The 'discs' or saucers were suspected to be secret weapons being developed. Not craft piloted by 'little green men' from Mars.

Here is an example document. from Aug 1947 that illustrates this

The early post war years were also tense because of the potential threat posed from the Soviet Union and its grip over Eastern Europe. There were no spy satellites or computers in those days. Intelligene gathering and deception often relied on good old fashioned spying,using open source data and the media.

For example in June 1947, around the time Brazel found the wreckage on the Foster Ranch, the New York Times published a story which obviously referred to a secret weapon dubbed the "Tsunami Bomb"



However we now know that 'Project Seal' , the official name of the project, was abandoned in early 1945.

...New Zealand and the United States conducted thousands of secret tests attempting to create a "tsunami bomb" during World War Two....

The files reportedly said initial testing was positive, however the project was ditched in early 1945. It was concluded that a single explosion would not be powerful enough to generate a tsunami,

New Zealand Herald, 2nd Jan 2013

Now why would such a story end up in the New York Times more than 2 years after plans had been abandoned?

This is where ufology tends to ignore the bigger picture. If it isn't the US government being deceptive about aliens and crashed UFOs in its possession then it doesn't concern ufologists. But the deception is, and was, often aimed to confuse adversaries, break encryption and catch out spies. Spies who often use ufology as a cover for acquiring secret documents and studying the latest military tech.

Some seventy years later in 2017 we could ask if the New York Times once again put out a false story to confuse adversaries?

a reply to: Guest101

....The FBI memo also raises a lot of question marks. A hexagonal shape suspended from a balloon is supposed to purport to be a flying disc?! Well … if I would try to mimic a flying disc I would suspend a DISC from a balloon, not a hexagonal shape.

Very true. It seems ridiculous.

But then a Boxing ring is usually square? Most times a 'round' of bread is rarely circular is it? The Red Sea is sort of a turquoise blue colour. So 'disc' may have merely been "terminology" of the time that was used to describe these unknown objects that were being reported.

Plus of course we know the US military's "highly trained observers" are often portrayed as anything but that. Recently we had a report of an object photographed by a supposed F18 Weapons officer with a smartphone. An object not shaped like a cube was supposedly reported as being shaped like a cube by 'intelligence' staff.

a reply to: mirageman

Look how Kenneth Arnolds report of crescent shaped 'craft' got mutilated into 'flying saucers'

Several years later, Arnold would state he likened their movement to saucers skipping on water, without comparing their actual shapes to saucers,[

To this day, if someone sees some blobby thing in the sky, they well might say, "I saw a flying saucer".

Seeing as though Arnold's crescent shaped craft is mentioned there was also this similarly shaped craft photographed in Phoenix the day before the Roswell story hit the newsstands, which I've always thought intriguing.

Further write up about the pics here.

a reply to: chunder

I have no problem with the concept that people see seemingly anomalous things, or actual anomalous things. But what's rather amusing, is that "Roswell" has an easy prosaic answer, and absolutely zero evidence of anything anomalous. It's kind of like the "Nimitz encounter"; it's all TRULY 'nothing to see here, move along now" but some individuals just can't move along.

originally posted by: mirageman
This is where ufology tends to ignore the bigger picture. If it isn't the US government being deceptive about aliens and crashed UFOs in its possession then it doesn't concern ufologists. But the deception is, and was, often aimed to confuse adversaries, break encryption and catch out spies. Spies who often use ufology as a cover for acquiring secret documents and studying the latest military tech.

I'm not sure how that hypothesis can be borne out by the facts. Spies perhaps have used ufology as a cover but in 1947, that's not particularly apparent. There were spies in all departments of the US government during the war, we know this from the Venona encryptions. They were also 'spy rings' involved in the Manhattan Project. These were, for the most part ideological spies, they didn't do it for money. In the period leading up to the war there were also numerous Nazi spy rings which is why Sir William Stephenson was sent over even before the US entered the war because there was a reticience amongst the US authorities to crack down on Fascists as hard as they cracked down on Communists as a consequence German spy-rings had been successfully acquiring US technology since before 1934.

The key reason for the what we now know to be false intelligence supposedly emanating from Soviet Russia during the immediate post-war period through to at least the early 50s is due to the dependence upon Nazi sources, not just via the Gehlen Organisations but also from those Nazis who had heard that the US was offering Safehaven.

Much exaggeration ensued. Some really big porkies got told. Venona decryption went on for years, those spies it revealed with few exceptions (the Cambridge Five for example) were not operational in peace time but weren't revealed as such until many years later because the decryption process was so drawn out.

What's most interesting about Venona is that Truman wasn't included. He received briefings via the FBI but he was not in on the secret. Eisenhower was even before he became President because of his role in the European war arena. That gives us some insight into how perhaps Truman could have found himself backed into a corner by false flags and overly interpreted intelligence reports but at that time the Soviets did not, in any shape or form, represent a clear and present danger to US national security or show very much interest in it at all. They very much had their own problems.

Whatever Truman was told the National Security Act of 26th July 1947 set in motion pax Americana. Whether Arnold's sighting or Roswell were involved in any way at that time is very difficult to say.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

It's certainly up for debate when and where the USG used and abused UFOlogy and occult groups for their intelligence objectives.

Now of course WWII was RIFE with deception.. Enigma broken, innocents sacrificed.. entire fake military units.. it's quite something.. but did that sort of thinking spill over IMMEDIATELY into 'Roswell' ?

I dunno.

"Roswell", IMHO was just much to-doo about nothing, and some of the fervor of Kenneth Arnold's perceived experience just washed over it, subtly affecting perceptions and choice of words used.

I don't want to get off Roswell, but one thing seems for sure if Roswell wasn’t an alien crashed disk then the MJ 12 documents crashes to the ground with that alleged disk.

One supports the other. Without Roswell’s supposed crash there wouldn’t have been any MJ 12.

No Roswell crashed disk from outer space then MJ 12 is not credible…right?

All of this happened in a small window of exactly 4 months: Arnold's 9 disks in Late June--24th...Roswell Alien Disk crash...early July...Truman's creation of MJ 12 on September 24th, 1947. Interesting.

Take out Roswell in that equation then you have to take out MJ 12.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

All is fair in love and war.

What we have are "secrets" that need to be kept. Ever greater tangles being woven to conceal those "secrets" as well as the telling of lies to deflect attention away from those secrets. The secrets are out, only the confusion of lies remain.

a reply to: Willtell

I don't want to get away from Roswell either, but here's another example I want to make;

In 324 AD, Flavius Valerius Constantinus thought he saw a glowing cross in the sky during one of his famous battles. Whether he had a mental illness, or he confused a "sun dog" with something significant, or whatever happened, as a result Christianity blossomed into a major force, when otherwise, it was likely just much to do about nothing. Just another cult.

Those UFO 'core stories' such as Roswell have had a similar effect; they helped create UFOlogy, right or wrong. Even if there NEVER was anything there at all. That's not even the point.

Something doesn't have to be real or true to have a huge effect on history.

Of course in terms of "Roswell", we know that it was a nothing incident and only because years later it was 'resurrected' into some big thing that never happened, does it have significance.

Now if Kenneth Arnold had seen witches flying on brooms, or 'fairies' flying along, perhaps UFOlogy would never have happened at all.

But characterizing things in terms of technology was a powerful wedge that was driven into the human psyche, given the horror (and horrific majesty) of the 2 atomic bombs.

That was the start of people starting to 'worship technology' in a manner of speaking.. IMHO.

Human minds were then receptive to 'technology' as a 'god' or 'devil'.

So here we are.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Your point is that minor incidents can affect major historical realities having little to do with truth or facts…. certainly.

I make it my business to notice these type of things. For instance.

The real beginning of modern ufology is not Roswell but began on a certain Holy man’s birthday, June 24th...
One of the main figures of many mystical and religious groups from freemasons to religionists in France and even some religions in Iraq.

The Arnold incident on June 24 is the birthday of John the Baptist.

Probably means nothing.

But you never know

a reply to: Willtell

Kenneth Arnold came first, yes.

But I submit that without the big hullabaloo of 'Fake Roswell',
'Mostly fake RFI', Etc., we wouldn't have this ridiculous present
world religion of UFOlogy.

Of course you know this... it can be quibbled about what first sparked off UFOlogy..

I mentioned "Roswell" and "Nimitz" in my example, because I've had
extreme threats aimed at me over those two.. people saying they
will penetrate my identity and punish my family, Etc. I've had multiple
Christians make the same threat.

Religious mania, with no foundation in reality takes many forms.

Kev

Roswell, MJ-12 and officially released documents and records pretty much all contradict each other.

Very briefly: -

1) If the US already captured something at Roswell then why did Project Blue Book make hardly any mention at all of it?

2) All of major ufologist's books before 1980 including Hynek, Keyhoe and Ruppelt say little or nothing about it either?

3) Then there's the infamous Twining memo of Sept 1947. Nathan Twining was Head of U.S. Air Materiel Command (AMC) and IIRC was flown into Roswell around the same time Brazel rolled into town with whatever it was he found. The memo details his findings on the "flying discs".

Lot's of pro-alien ufology people often quote the conclusions from it such as

...The reported phenomena are real

But what they all gloss over is that Twining also said...

Due consideration must be given the following:-
..................
The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects.......

If that was the case then nothing interesting was found at Roswell?

4) MJ-12 also changed the official "war nerves" explanation for the Battle of LA into a full blown UFO incident. The papers also detailed a UFO crash at Cape Girardeau in 1941. With mentions of a back-engineering work on the craft! Which would also appear to be contradictory with the above.


The evidence is circumstantial. But MJ-12 seems to have been a creation of persons in the Air Force Office of Special Investigations during the late 1970s into the 1980s. The people who were also made responsible for the two Official Government Roswell Reports. Hmmmmm.....

But it would require a whole load of serious research and a long thread to disseminate that story.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

About the 24th, of course, I refer mainly to our good friends the freemasons.

But off of this topic…yeah sure.

But I think the Arnold incident is the true start of Ufology. Roswell is an addendum, sure, but Arnold and his 9 disks or saucers was the spark.


Of course, the really true start of ufology no one knows.


Also, Roswell may be debunked here, but Roswell's mythology, story, or whatever will go on and on and on.

a reply to: mirageman

The evidence is circumstantial. But MJ-12 seems to have been a creation of persons in the Air Force Office of Special Investigations during the late 1970s into the 1980s. The people who were also made responsible for the two Official Government Roswell Reports. Hmmmmm.....

That’s the key question. Why then. Why in the early 80s did they start to bring back Roswell from the dead?


Then Bill Moore and his merry men Berlitz, Stanton Freidman, and Jamie Shandera all into the early and mid-to-late eighties-- first Roswell then MJ 12 mixed with the Doty/Bennewitz fiasco.

Why then?

Some ufology enthusiasts would say--trickle-down disclosure. But the fact doesn't back that up.


IMO there’s gold there for some heady researcher to find connecting these dots.


Project Beta and the Mirage Men book and doc as far as I know are the most revealing pieces on this but don't go deep enough.

Bottom line. There’s something deeper no one has penetrated or revealed yet.

a reply to: Willtell

, Roswell may be debunked here, but Roswell's mythology, story, or whatever will go on and on and on.

"Roswell" is too big to fail. A whole industry has been built on it.

If ufology allows Roswell to be explained then jobs are on the line. Schmitt, Dolan, Howe, Knapp, Cowbell....all need people to believe they are trustworthy, intrepid ufo investigators by actually being terrible ones. There would also be a fear of the domino effect. If the pillar of American ufology is allowed to fall then everything else tumbles.

a reply to: mirageman

I agree with you but...they’ll find another Roswell to take its place, believe me.