Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny...?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

but it's all in the choice of verses you might care to quote.
...
Universalism is the overall slant of the Message God is sending our way.

So you're selective. Some things are weightier than others.

Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Even in the saying of Jesus which identifies the weightier matters, there is this woe being pronounced.

You asked why I fall back to Greek myths. The answer is that no one expects me to harmonize all the myths into a coherent and non-contradictory fabric. It's just easier when it comes to the expectations of others.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Daniel 12:2 from the Young's Literal: "And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during." I looked in Biblehub.com.

Have you even considered how silly that sounds? The way you are trying to present this verse is equivalent to saying that salvation is limited in time also. You didn't think that one through very well.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

My carefully considered opinion, after looking deeply at the text, is that Damnationism is a product of bias and bad translation, Annihilationism is a product of attention to too few selected verses, but, Universalism is the overall slant of the Message God is sending our way.

Yet the verses you've tried to point to in order to support your view take everything out of context in order to accomplish it. You haven't given us one verse to really support your view on "Universalism". You've only convinced yourself that you have.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Lazarus Short

but it's all in the choice of verses you might care to quote.
...
Universalism is the overall slant of the Message God is sending our way.

So you're selective. Some things are weightier than others.

Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Even in the saying of Jesus which identifies the weightier matters, there is this woe being pronounced.

You asked why I fall back to Greek myths. The answer is that no one expects me to harmonize all the myths into a coherent and non-contradictory fabric. It's just easier when it comes to the expectations of others.

So I'm selective? I already stated on this thread that I examined every verse in the KJV. Some apply to the topic, but most don't.

Your response about the Greek myths makes no sense to me, but no matter. We are hardly on the same page...

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Daniel 12:2 from the Young's Literal: "And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during." I looked in Biblehub.com.

Have you even considered how silly that sounds? The way you are trying to present this verse is equivalent to saying that salvation is limited in time also. You didn't think that one through very well.

"Age-during" is a bit clumsy, but I think Young was striving for accuracy rather than high-church grandiosity. Whether I thought it through is irrelevant, as the verse addresses the coming age. Eternity is a long ways off...

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

My carefully considered opinion, after looking deeply at the text, is that Damnationism is a product of bias and bad translation, Annihilationism is a product of attention to too few selected verses, but, Universalism is the overall slant of the Message God is sending our way.

Yet the verses you've tried to point to in order to support your view take everything out of context in order to accomplish it. You haven't given us one verse to really support your view on "Universalism". You've only convinced yourself that you have.

To give you my full argument would require me to copy/paste my entire 240+ manuscript here. You would likely still skim and dismiss it. Anyway, I will state against your view that I took things out of context, that I put things back into their proper context, damnationist translators having twisted the text many years ago.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

You would likely still skim and dismiss it. Anyway, I will state against your view that I took things out of context, that I put things back into their proper context,

Sure, that's why you picked one translation out of 50 to try and come close to your view on the subject. Fail!

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

You would likely still skim and dismiss it. Anyway, I will state against your view that I took things out of context, that I put things back into their proper context,

Sure, that's why you picked one translation out of 50 to try and come close to your view on the subject. Fail!

The Truth is up for a vote, then?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

According to you, yes. According to me, no. The other 50 translations prevail over your "truth".

a reply to: Deetermined

You haven't given us one verse to really support your view on "Universalism".

Didn't he? 1 Corinthians 15:22,28.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Deetermined

You haven't given us one verse to really support your view on "Universalism".

Didn't he? 1 Corinthians 15:22,28.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

These verses only state that every man will be raised alive, not saved. Some will be raised to eternal life (just like we discussed in Daniel 12:2) and others will be raised to judgement and the lake of fire. While all wil "be made alive", not all will be saved to eternal life in the Kingdom of God as the Bible clearly teaches throughout.

God only become "all in all" in the Kingdom of God and for those who make it there.

Remember, Paul is specifically preaching to his Christian brothers in these passages.

a reply to: Deetermined

You must look ahead to First Corinthians 15:28, the furthest look the Bible gives us of the future:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Here, God, Who is not a God of the dead, but of the living, is All in all. Now if He is truly a God of the living, then all must both be alive and saved, otherwise He would not be All in all, but only in some.

As usual, you only answer the verses you can deal with - 22 and 23, not 28.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Here, God, Who is not a God of the dead, but of the living, is All in all.

But God only becomes all in all after everyone is judged in which some will experience the SECOND DEATH as stated in Revelation 20.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Laz this issue has been kicked around for two thousand years at least
Its not a salvation issue, its spit balling at best

I have considered all three options over a decade at least and am content with my reasoning, still could be wrong, God can and does surprise us. who knows

The minimum belief to be Christian
The salvation of all is not a salvation issue? Come again...?

When it comes to God, you should expect the unexpected.

I say salvation issue in the context of what one must believe to be considered a Christian. For example, the Nicean creed is as I understand universally accepted as the minimum belief of Christian confession.
The doctrine of hell isnt part of the creed.

As for “expect the unexpected”. No thank you, I think God has been for the most part clear and open with no sneaky, tricky or surprising changes planned. Just me not understanding the bible.

a reply to: Raggedyman

still does not make it true. It was a false doctrine then and still is.

It is not opinion it is Bible truth. I have learned that if someone has to go to an UNVERIFIED Greek Document, which is a copy not an ORIGINAL, then they are to be ignored and the KJV to be believed.

I want EVERYONE to see this, Raggy says, "Everlasting Fire is not Everlasting fire". Has anyone ever seen such distortion of the English Text which is also found in Luther's German Bible. This is like saying Blue is not Blue it is actually Black.

It is a far easier for a man, to believe the word of God where it says it, as it says it than the distortions of any MAN.

I have clear understanding but you however will rely on men, I rely on God ans his power in the preservation of his words as found in the English TR KJV (PS 12:6-7) than any distortion found only in three codex documents all from after 350AD, the Vaticanicus, the Sinaitscus and the Alexandrius.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

CJ, I don’t care what you believe
I disagree, to me the KJV is nothing but a poor copy of the Greek and Hebrew, Bang, your opinion is not mine
Everlasting fire is not everlasting life
Beieve as you wish, I don’t care, it’s your choice
I don’t fellowship at your church and I wouldn’t
Bless you, I don’t care for your understanding as you don’t for mine.
I agree to disagree, leave it.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Deetermined

You haven't given us one verse to really support your view on "Universalism".

Didn't he? 1 Corinthians 15:22,28.

Yeah but
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

“All in Christ” not all outside of Christ, those who belong to Jesus. Those “born again in Christ”
I don’t see that as universal. God can’t save against freewill, you don’t want Jesus He won’t force

a reply to: Raggedyman

it is not what I believe it is clear Bible.

What I can tell it is not about your understanding it, you have a problem with believing it, just as it is written, where it is written.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Raggedyman

it is not what I believe it is clear Bible.

What I can tell it is not about your understanding it, you have a problem with believing it, just as it is written, where it is written.

Chester John, correct me if I am wrong, but you believe in an everlasting Hell, filled with everlasting fire, which burns the lost everlastingly, yes?

You must be dead to be in Hell, yes?

Well then, let me ask you, keeping in mind Raggedyman's quote, " 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death." from First Corinthians...after death has been destroyed as the last enemy, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell?

Answer carefully - no Damnationist has yet given me a decent answer.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Here, God, Who is not a God of the dead, but of the living, is All in all.

But God only becomes all in all after everyone is judged in which some will experience the SECOND DEATH as stated in Revelation 20.

I suppose you believe the dead, if they are lost, stay dead in the SECOND DEATH. However, consider that God tells us that He is a God of the living, not the dead. Consider that if He really is ALL in all, that He may truly be, especially if death is the last enemy to be destroyed. You can't have it both ways, you can't have both death being destroyed and some dead staying dead. God is not a God of confusion...