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Does the Hell/ECT Doctrine Hold Up to Scrutiny...?

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posted on Aug, 13 2020 @ 08:06 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

Ok tell us your testimony.

When, Where and What happen that led you to salvation in Christ?

I have one it is here on ATS. I have never read yours so I am interested in hearing it.


edit on 8/13/2020 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 13 2020 @ 10:39 PM
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originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Lazarus Short

If there were lost chapters it would. But there are none.


I happen to have a copy, but you judge from not knowing. Once again, your KJV is short of perfect.


I don’t know why but talking to kjv only supporters is like talking to Jehovah Witnesses, they just seem to have a deep conviction in someone else’s opinion beyond normal.

Someone else has made their mind up for them. The kjv becomes the same as JW,orgs NWT, is the best. Be like watching two cats at each other that argument


I have a high opinion of the Bible, but the KJV has its failings. Even so, I usually quote from it. Yet, I dug into the KJV to decide between hell, annihilation and universalism. By the time I finished, I was a confirmed universalist. YMMV. Good news! If you are not a universalist, you still get saved. It's a sort of fail-safe.


I don’t think I can support universalism based on the fact God must be forcing His love on many who don’t want His love
Annihilation sits well with me, just a few things that dropped and others opinions swayed me. I don’t mind reading from a few biblical sources, but not the kjv, just not contemporary or relevant.
With the computer and the ability to multi reference, so many options.
To be honest, it’s not about words but meanings and Christianity is to be leased through the Sermon on the mount and the fruit of the Spirit in my opinion



posted on Aug, 13 2020 @ 10:40 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Another time maybe, I just don’t want to encourage any bickering

If you think I am not a Christian, that’s fine by me



posted on Aug, 14 2020 @ 11:17 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

I would be interested in hearing it. It will tell us exactly what about Jesus you believed.

I read today about a man who shared his church creed in that Jesus is God in the flesh. But that will not save anyone. It is a sad commentary when someones religious creed is shared over the Gospel of the grace of God.



posted on Aug, 14 2020 @ 11:29 AM
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I had been taught that belief in Jesus the Christ having come in the flesh was one of the essentials for salvation.



posted on Aug, 14 2020 @ 11:44 AM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Even sadder is when someone thinks you must believe their version of the bible is the only one and if you don’t agree, God doesn’t love you

Enough CJ, I am not interested in fundamentalist rubbish, you are like a JW door knocker. Legalism is a disease Jesus Himself came to end



posted on Aug, 14 2020 @ 12:44 PM
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ChesterJohn - You had previously stated that there were no lost chapters of Acts and that they would be there if they existed. Then you said they did not exist. But, check this out:

israelect.com...



posted on Aug, 14 2020 @ 04:08 PM
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a reply to: Lazarus Short


In the case of the wheat and chaff and the wheat and tares, you assume the wheat are the righteous, and the chaff/tares are the unrighteous. I came to realize that the wheat and the chaff are parts of the SAME seed, only separated when threshed. The wheat/tare contrast is less marked, but you will find the key in First Corinthians 3, where works, NOT PERSONS are burned.


Your understanding is flawed again here. "Tares" are weeds and they are NOT part of the wheat. Once again, you choose to look the other way even when the verses explain to you that they are "the children of the devil" as shown in Matthew 13. The disciples even asked Jesus to explain it to them so they would understand, and yet you still don't get the explanation.



posted on Aug, 14 2020 @ 04:22 PM
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originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short


In the case of the wheat and chaff and the wheat and tares, you assume the wheat are the righteous, and the chaff/tares are the unrighteous. I came to realize that the wheat and the chaff are parts of the SAME seed, only separated when threshed. The wheat/tare contrast is less marked, but you will find the key in First Corinthians 3, where works, NOT PERSONS are burned.


Your understanding is flawed again here. "Tares" are weeds and they are NOT part of the wheat. Once again, you choose to look the other way even when the verses explain to you that they are "the children of the devil" as shown in Matthew 13. The disciples even asked Jesus to explain it to them so they would understand, and yet you still don't get the explanation.


You got me there, and I did not read/think it through. However, I still believe those tares will be saved in the end - not in this age or even in the age to come, but in the fullness of time.



posted on Aug, 14 2020 @ 07:12 PM
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a reply to: Lazarus Short

I said there are none, if there were more verses they would be in the book of acts and not missing because God inspired the KJV and it has ALL the verses in it.

Your link is a roman catholic lie. Paul may have made it to England but he never wrote about it and Luke was not with him if he did. Acts was written by Luke.


edit on 8/14/2020 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2020 @ 10:56 AM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Two items:

1. Discussing with you is useless and pointless. You argue KJVO with the persistence of a flat-earther. I won't do it anymore, as it no longer amuses me, due to item 2.

2. I note that after you enter a thread, the original topic is lost. Distract and demonize seem to be your tactics. Expect to be ignored in future.



posted on Aug, 15 2020 @ 04:14 PM
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a reply to: Lazarus Short

It is real easy for you to prove that the KJV has all the verses in it. Just take any version and compare it side by side in your reading of it everyday. In about a year you will finish with one version. then move on to the next. I went through this and learned this for my self. I am not A KJV Only I am a preserved words of God as found in the KJV as a result of God's word he would preserve it to all generations as it says in the Bible in Psalm 12:6-7. Try at least reading Pls 12:6-7 and then compare the Bibles.

You have nothing to lose and a whole lot of bible reading to gain.



posted on Aug, 16 2020 @ 10:33 AM
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a reply to: Lazarus Short

Sorry about the hit and run posting.

I seen earlier in the thread, the idea of fire and the fiery side of God brought up.

Way back, I came across a description of a fiery place to Noah in the Book Of Enoch, and it stuck with me.It describes the punishment of the angels to Noah, before the deluge...


Chapter LXV

1 After this he showed me the angels of punishment, who were prepared to come, and to open all the mighty waters(1) under the earth:

2 That they may be for judgment, and for the destruction of all those who remain and dwell upon the earth.

3 And the Lord of spirits commanded the angels who went forth, not to take up the men and preserve them.

4 For those angels presided over all the mighty waters. Then I went out from the presence of Enoch.

(1)the power of water p.80


Chapter LXVI

1 In those days the word of God came to me(2), and said, Noah, behold, thy lot(3) has ascended up to me, a lot void of crime(4), a lot beloved(5) and upright.

2 Now then shall the angels labour at the trees; but when they proceed to this, I will put my hand upon it, and preserve it.

3 The seed of life shall arise from it(6), and a change shall take place(7), that the dry land shall not be left empty. I will establish your seed before me for ever and ever, and the seed of those who dwell with you on the surface of the earth. It shall be blessed and multiplied in the presence of the earth, in the name of the Lord.

(2)was with me (3)portion (4)fault (5)of love (6)be (7)shall enter p. 80

4 And they shall confine those angels who disclosed impiety. In that burning valley [it is, that they shall be confined], which at first my great-grandfather Enoch showed me in the west, where there were mountains of gold and silver, of iron, of fluid metal, and of tin.

5 I beheld that valley in which there was great perturbation, and where the waters were troubled.

6 And when all this was effected, from the fluid mass of fire, and the perturbation which prevailed(1) in that place, there arose a strong smell of sulphur, which became mixed with the waters; and the valley of the angels, who had been guilty of seduction, burned underneath its soil.

7 Through that valley also rivers of fire were flowing(2), to which those angels shall be condemned, who seduced the inhabitants of the earth.

8 And in those days shall these waters be to kings, to princes, to the exalted, and to the inhabitants of the earth, for the healing of the soul and body, and for the judgment of the spirit.

9 Their spirits shall be full of revelry, (3) that they may be judged in their bodies; because they have denied the Lord of spirits, and [although] they perceive their condemnation day by day, they believe not in his name.

(1)troubled them (2)went (3)sport p.81

10 And as the inflammation of their bodies shall be great, so shall their spirits undergo a change for ever.

11 For no word which is uttered before the Lord of spirits shall be in vain.

12 Judgment has come upon them, because they trusted in their carnal revelry (1), and denied the Lord of spirits.

13 In those days shall the waters of that valley(2) be changed; for when the angels shall be judged, then shall the heat of those springs of water experience an alteration.

14 And when the angels shall ascend, the water of the springs shall [again] undergo a change, and be frozen. Then I heard holy Michael answering and saying, This judgment, with which the angels shall be judged, shall bear testimony against the kings, the princes, and those who possess the earth.

15 For these waters of judgment shall be for their healing, and for the death of their bodies. But they shall not perceive and believe that the waters will be changed, and become a fire, which shall blaze for ever.

(1)sport of their bodies (2)its waters p.82

Chapter LXVII

1 After this he gave me the characteristical marks(1) of all the secret things in the book of my great-grandfather Enoch, and in the parables which had been given to him; inserting them for me among the words of the book of parables.

2 At that that time holy Michael answered and said to Raphael, The power of the spirit hurries me away, and impels me on(2). The severity of the judgment, of the secret judgment of the angels, who is capable [of beholding]–the endurance of that severe judgment which has taken place and been made permanent–without being melted at the site of it?(3) Again holy Michael answered and said to holy Raphael, Who is there whose heart is not softened by it, and whose reins are not troubled at this thing?

3 Judgment has gone forth against them by those who have thus dragged them away; and that was, when they stood in the presence of the Lord of spirits.

4 In like manner also holy Rakael said to Raphael, They shall not be before the eye of the Lord; since the Lord of spirits has been offended with them; for like Lords have they
conducted themselves. Therefore will he bring upon them a secret judgment for ever and ever.

5 For neither shall angel nor man receive a portion of it; but they alone shall receive their own judgment for ever end ever

(1)the signs (2)irritates or excites them (3)and not be melted in the presence of it p.83-84

Pages 80-84, Laurance, Richard "Chapters 65-67" The Book Of Enoch (Wizards Bookshelf,1995)


Leaves me with the impression that God's fire refines.

This book isn't cannon, though imo it provides insight into the issue at hand.I imagine historically this book would have influenced the early church's ideas about this.



posted on Aug, 17 2020 @ 12:20 PM
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a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

I have a copy of the "Book of Enoch" and have tried to read it, but I just cannot get into it. Maybe it's because we have no connection to antediluvian historical references, or their way of thinking is too alien to us, or maybe the Ethiopic was badly translated. Anyway - thanks for the quotes...they do have some bearing on the subject.







 
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