The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
My friend saint. You and I have a different aspect of what is "hell". One thinking is that one will live forever in a hot furnace for their sins.

My thinking is another way. Haven't we both been through "hell"? Yes, "hell" is what one goes through, and lives with when one can find no direction. We both have experienced it. We all have experienced it. That is the true hell that Jesus spoke of. Burns doesn't it? Hurts doesn't it?

Your compassionate take on christianity reminds me alot of buddhism.. as does Jesus' [I know Jesus wasn't actually a christian..] Hate begets hate.. if you choose what is traditionally known as a 'sin' it causes suffering. Assaulting or abusing someone.. causes the victim suffering and eventually the attacker. I have known many who have felt no remourse for being spiteful and hurting others.. yet they have still ended up suffering 'in hell' eventually because they have been left alone as no-one wants to be their victim [this is when they are most likely to develop a conscience for their past deeds and try make amense]. Heaven is realising the 'love thy neighbour' thing is good for alot more than getting a free pass into a self indulgent afterlife. I believe the philosophy behind many of Jesus' [and buddha's of course] words are about creating heaven on earth.. I think this concept of 'after life reward' was always a secondary ideal and become the main goal way after these beliefs were first established.

Ironically though.. there's a strong possibility I'll get flamed for calling Jesus a humanist.. if they consider this a bad thing they've missed the point entirely.

[edit on 13-9-2005 by riley]

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it our and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." (Matthew 18:9)

This is where we hit the interpretation button again my friend. Have you or have you not been through the "fire of hell"? That is a legitimate question.

You also spoke(I'm not good at all the cutting and pasting) of the FEAR factor vs. the LOVE factor. I FEAR nothing. Not even GOD. Why? GOD is the father. GOD is love. All the fire and brimstone speeches are what make people rebel from Christianity.

Read the above quote and others and try to understand of what I speak. I know you are confused by "who I am", but hey don't worry most are.

I know that I am loved by nature and nature loves me. I had a dog come up to me last nite while walking just barking away. Actually nudged my heel. FEAR? None at all. He then backed off and went his merry way.

One can also look at a purty woman without "lusting". One could think "wow she has nice legs". No lust-just a thought.

GOD or Christ or "The light" woke me up one eve. At no time was I told I was going to "rot in hell". I was already doing that. That is why he was there. To get me on my feet, to get me to believe in myself, to get me to take control with his help.

No book is going to completely tell the story. Especially one written by first century man. Do you actually understand what Christ meant when he said, "I am the light." I do. It resides in everything in this universe. If not we would not be typing for we would not be held together.

Scientists I have also heard ridiculed? Why? Scientists today think they are gonna extract the GOD particle. Does this mean they do not believe in a GOD? Quite the opposite. It means they have a great understanding of GOD.

Anyway, I believe as you do that Jesus died on that cross for our sins? So I am to rot in hell for looking at a beautiful woman? If so then Jesus did not die for our sins? Is that what you are saying? Oxymoron.

All I have to say then is if you're married, then brace yourself for consequence...and often one doesn't have to wait for afterlife to feel the effect . I'm speaking from experience on this one. Just a warning from a caring friend . Also consider, there's not a big chasm between thought and action as many of us think.

Ah, yes married to a wonderful wife with three great children. It depends on the individual with the chasm you speak of. I have had plenty of opportunity to "notch my belt" during the last 30 years. Even with the hell I was going thru with my wife at one time I did not and would not go there.

Even once had an opportunity with a "media star". Passed her up. Would have been a big notch. A notch that I was not going to inwardly burn in hell for.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
This is where we hit the interpretation button again my friend. Have you or have you not been through the "fire of hell"? That is a legitimate question.

No, thank God. It wasn't by much that I missed it though and have gone through "my own private hells" which are but a small taste.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
You also spoke(I'm not good at all the cutting and pasting) of the FEAR factor vs. the LOVE factor. I FEAR nothing. Not even GOD. Why? GOD is the father. GOD is love. All the fire and brimstone speeches are what make people rebel from Christianity.

If you're going to be with God at the end of this life, then I'm sure you'll still be pointing the finger at me saying "see? I told you there was no hell" and you know what, for you you're right. Congratulations. But, I have a job to do for the rest of the people who are heading the way to destruction to see what lies ahead, not to make them feel fear or for me to be judgemental of them, rather as a loving, caring friend who doesn't want to see them come to that end. The Bible makes pretty clear what hell is in many places and if you're on the right track refusing to see it, I don't see where it's a 'disqualifier' for heaven. Rejecting God and His son, according to the Book, is.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
One can also look at a purty woman without "lusting". One could think "wow she has nice legs". No lust-just a thought.

Still there is that comparison with what you have versus what you have not. Where do you draw the line? Love who you have and appreciate it wholly, all others are sisters or brothers. Proverbs has a lot of great detail to say about this topic too. I'm not calling myself perfect by any stretch of the means. As I say all the things I say, I hear it myself and am directed to apply it myself.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
GOD or Christ or "The light" woke me up one eve. At no time was I told I was going to "rot in hell". I was already doing that. That is why he was there. To get me on my feet, to get me to believe in myself, to get me to take control with his help.

Amen! And so I think it should be. Still, we shouldn't cut out parts of the picture simply because we don't like to look at them. You have a testament on how God is merciful, but he is also just and therefore must punish sin.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
No book is going to completely tell the story. Especially one written by first century man. Do you actually understand what Christ meant when he said, "I am the light." I do. It resides in everything in this universe. If not we would not be typing for we would not be held together.

Compare the Book with God. Ask God what He thinks of it.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Scientists I have also heard ridiculed? Why? Scientists today think they are gonna extract the GOD particle. Does this mean they do not believe in a GOD? Quite the opposite. It means they have a great understanding of GOD.

If I were not one myself, I probably wouldn't have found CrystalSwords statements funny. I don't know many scientists who believe they're pursuing God in their studies, except maybe a very select few. Science, research, and professorships can be very cut-throat. I was very surprised and unprepared for this. My "nobility of science" banner got shot at quite a bit.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Anyway, I believe as you do that Jesus died on that cross for our sins? So I am to rot in hell for looking at a beautiful woman? If so then Jesus did not die for our sins? Is that what you are saying? Oxymoron.

If you believe Jesus is the one and only son of God, died on the cross as payment for our sins, and was resurrected to be with the Father then according to the Book you are saved (John 3:16). If, however, this proposition is rejected, then that is when you're subjected to harsh judgement (Revelation 20:11). I can't make this stuff up, it's all in the Book as well as a direct order given to me. If everyone were going to heaven, I would not bother, waste my time, neither been told to do something about it, nor being made to overcome things I used to fear.

[edit on 14-9-2005 by saint4God]

nor being made to overcome things I used to fear.

Ah, so my friend you have lost your fear also? Great!! The only problem I have come upon due to this is that my employers don't know how to take me when I spit out honest answers and statements. Seems most are a little reluctant to accept constructive criticism!!!!

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Ah, yes married to a wonderful wife with three great children.

Woot!

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
It depends on the individual with the chasm you speak of. I have had plenty of opportunity to "notch my belt" during the last 30 years. Even with the hell I was going thru with my wife at one time I did not and would not go there.

Even once had an opportunity with a "media star". Passed her up. Would have been a big notch. A notch that I was not going to inwardly burn in hell for.

I refer back to what Christ said, "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultrery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). If his words do not mean anything to you, then there's no way possible anything I say would. It also seems that the argument is not between me and you, rather you and him, so maybe you can bring it up next time you're talking with God.

[edit on 14-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Ah, so my friend you have lost your fear also? Great!! The only problem I have come upon due to this is that my employers don't know how to take me when I spit out honest answers and statements. Seems most are a little reluctant to accept constructive criticism!!!!

I'm finding myself a bit candid as a result too. I hope people see though it's not bitterness but a reflection of what's truly present. I feel ya.

Query: if SIN is in a sense denying god... then is not God's love conditional?

If god's love is conditional... then how can it/he/she provide souls for those who are damned?

Are the souls destroyed if sin witout forgiveness is committed?

Is Forgiveness conditional upon sincerity?

If it is, then what of people who fool themselves with their own insincere words?

If a damned soul is to burn eternally in hell, then there is no further point to those souls? They are forsaken by god? if this is true... then why have a hell at all? A cesspool of useless, pointless souls existing in turmoil for no other reason than punishment.

Because God feels like it? Hmm... if God has feeling, then can god be jealous? If god can be jealous, then can it/he/she be petulant or petty?

I prefer to believe that the Creator transcends human quibbling details, beyond emotion and desire, beyond longing and sorrow. Love without fear. No rejection, no anger, no suffering, no disappointment. A god beyond human empathy.

The Human soul, when acts are committed that are unforgiveable to US, grows heavier. It is a sensation one can realize when they think of events or deeds they have committed which brought harm or pain to another being... or anything which makes ones heart feel weighty with guilt.

The Creator would have us welcome it, and be embraced by it. It is through our own belief of our own unworthiness that we cycle through myriad lives, or are punished in a loop of having to relive the guilt and suffering we put upon others. I believe that any such guilt can be washed away, regardless of how deep it runs... and that all souls return to the great union of creation. Perhaps we are still we when we return, or perhaps we are "US", losing all sense of "I". Perhaps we become that which Made, a part of the whole once more, and our independant thoughts become filed in the great stores of wisdom in the Creator's light.

This I am sure of, I am not afraid of any hell or punishment. I am not sure the Creator cares overmuch to punish any human, no matter how egregious their actions may be. I think we punish ourselves well enough.

For those of us with souls. For those damned or damaged people who are so alien to humankind as to be unrecognizable in behavior, perhaps they do not have souls. Perhaps they are a part of the ever battering entropy which rages against existence in effort to erase all creation so that it never WAS. I believe that those who willingly forsake their souls to the void become such husks... but it is an act of will, I think, more than simply dictated by action.

I realize that much of this seems like folly, or misleading from the direct light of God, but it is... peaceful. It is serine, and elegant. Far more elegant than an entire realm designed by a Creator to punish for eternity. I see this as purposeless, as it serves no more effort than to punish those who no longer matter to reality.

The trials I expect to face in my afterlife are for things I have done that I feel guilt for, things I have done that I cannot forgive myself for. Until I heal those wounds, I will be bound by my own law from the gates of Heaven... which I am not entirely certain I would like to be in. Eternal serenity doesn't sit well with me, I prefer the imperfectly flawed gem of our world, where ugliness contrasts beauty and makes humanity significant in meaning.

If offered to return, I gladly would, knowing full well what I have suffered in this life... but truly, it is the laughter I choose to remember, the good times, and the times which lifted me up and made me think "This is why Humanity was worth the Sacrifice."

Mere ramblings and musings, only of passing relevance to the conversation... Comments are always welcome though.

TheCrystalSword, I've found here Bible quotin' ain't much good so I'll give answers as best as I can and if you'd like to know how I came about them, then I'll gladly expand. Experiences too can be blamed on "being a nut" but am hoping by now you don't see me as such. If you do, s'okay because I'm just here to provide answers to these burning questions most of us have had for a long time, not impress anyone.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Query: if SIN is in a sense denying god... then is not God's love conditional?

God is merciful, he does not want to punish anyone, HOWEVER God is just, therefore must punish sin. Example. I love my daughter very much. If she messes up, I have to punish her. I don't want to, but I must because it is the right thing to do. She does not get infinite opportunities to err though. She has to learn, grow, and cease doing that wrong.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
If god's love is conditional... then how can it/he/she provide souls for those who are damned?

I believe every soul has the opportunity to succeed. Otherwise, I see no reason why Jesus would have to bother teaching and getting physically killed.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Are the souls destroyed if sin witout forgiveness is committed?

Not necessarily. They undergo a very strong judgement. Revelation 20:11. I can tell you though, if you have confessed to God those sins and accept Jesus Christ as saviour and teacher then you will be forgiven and you will have eternal life guarenteed. John 3:16. Heaven is a free gift.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Is Forgiveness conditional upon sincerity?

God knows your heart. There's no 'tricking God'.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
If it is, then what of people who fool themselves with their own insincere words?

It is certainly possible to lie to yourself. I did it way back when, but deep down I knew it was a lie and after much spiritual antagonism I confessed and got rid of it.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
If a damned soul is to burn eternally in hell, then there is no further point to those souls?

My Book stops after that point. I do not know, but it says "eternity" and "a second death" so must take it as such.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
They are forsaken by god? if this is true... then why have a hell at all? A cesspool of useless, pointless souls existing in turmoil for no other reason than punishment.

Since the beginning, mankind has had a way to turning it's back to God without acknowledging consequence. This is in place so that believers will know, see and understand there is consequence. I don't know if hell ever caused anyone to come to God, but I do know that if you come to God out of love and not fear, it's an easier relationship to have.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Because God feels like it?

You'd be surprised how much reason God has for doing things. I don't know them all, but have been given some idea (a lot through experience) as to why because I ask a lot of questions and am a skeptic at heart.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Hmm... if God has feeling, then can god be jealous?

Absolutely. He said so Himself.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
If god can be jealous, then can it/he/she be petulant or petty?

No. That's a human trait based on emotional backlashing tied to sin.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I prefer to believe that the Creator transcends human quibbling details, beyond emotion and desire, beyond longing and sorrow. Love without fear. No rejection, no anger, no suffering, no disappointment. A god beyond human empathy.

This is how it used to be. We messed that up. I believe this is how it will be again someday, but first He's got to clean house.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
The Human soul, when acts are committed that are unforgiveable to US, grows heavier. It is a sensation one can realize when they think of events or deeds they have committed which brought harm or pain to another being... or anything which makes ones heart feel weighty with guilt.

Guilt has a purpose. It tells us when we're guilty. Ignoring (instead of facing) all guilt is like taking all the warning signs down from a minefield. *BOOM!* then we wonder why on earth we're suffering. Hm....

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
This I am sure of, I am not afraid of any hell or punishment. I am not sure the Creator cares overmuch to punish any human, no matter how egregious their actions may be. I think we punish ourselves well enough.

Hehe. We don't punish ourselves nearly enough for the things we think and do that harm Him, nor could we ever. We abuse Him like an unwanted animal then wonder why we don't get any help. Still, He said He's there, ready to forgive when we're willing to say sorry, and promises eternal happiness when we accept Him and his son. How great God is for that! Once we can see our own sin, then we realize the magnitude of just how badly we're screwing things up. Putting a blindfold on just leads to stepping on more mines - *BOOM!*

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
For those of us with souls. For those damned or damaged people who are so alien to humankind as to be unrecognizable in behavior, perhaps they do not have souls. Perhaps they are a part of the ever battering entropy which rages against existence in effort to erase all creation so that it never WAS. I believe that those who willingly forsake their souls to the void become such husks... but it is an act of will, I think, more than simply dictated by action.

Why would God create an individual just to take away that individuality? This seems pointless.

Each person has a soul and if you've ever witnessed The Change, there no longer is any doubt.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I realize that much of this seems like folly, or misleading from the direct light of God, but it is... peaceful. It is serine, and elegant. Far more elegant than an entire realm designed by a Creator to punish for eternity. I see this as purposeless, as it serves no more effort than to punish those who no longer matter to reality.

That's between you and Him. I'm just a messenger.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
The trials I expect to face in my afterlife are for things I have done that I feel guilt for, things I have done that I cannot forgive myself for. Until I heal those wounds, I will be bound by my own law from the gates of Heaven...

We're not God, therefore cannot save ourselves.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
which I am not entirely certain I would like to be in. Eternal serenity doesn't sit well with me,

Why does everyone think heaven is boring? Like some kind of empty field in Iowa?

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I prefer the imperfectly flawed gem of our world, where ugliness contrasts beauty and makes humanity significant in meaning.

*sigh* Enjoy the garbage heap then and keep that blind eye on all the pain, malice, suffering, death and destruction, else you might see something quite shocking.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
If offered to return, I gladly would, knowing full well what I have suffered in this life... but truly, it is the laughter I choose to remember, the good times, and the times which lifted me up and made me think "This is why Humanity was worth the Sacrifice."

And yet heaven is devoid of laughter and good times? On the contrary, it is all there.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Mere ramblings and musings, only of passing relevance to the conversation... Comments are always welcome though.

I do tend to comment quite a bit, if it's too much just let me know . And interesting conversation I think though, without a doubt.


[edit on 15-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
HOWEVER God is just, therefore must punish sin.

Doesn't this imply that the concept of justice is more powerful than god? If he is all powerful, then there are no 'musts' that apply to him.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
HOWEVER God is just, therefore must punish sin.

Doesn't this imply that the concept of justice is more powerful than god? If he is all powerful, then there are no 'musts' that apply to him.

That's what He said He does, not me. I didn't make up the idea on my own. Ask Him why. If He changes His mind I will with it. Personally I'd rather us all make it through together (which is why I'm trying so hard) but it's His universe, I'm just a tenant.

[edit on 15-9-2005 by saint4God]

Your compassionate take on christianity reminds me alot of buddhism

I know nothing of Buddhism except he spoke of love. I just have always been a person that does not judge a book by it's cover. I have found in life that if one treats another with respect, etc. one will be treated the same way. That even is true with some who represent the "seedier" side of our society.

I have always thought that Christians were supposed to be compassionate. This is why I have so much trouble with certain ones within the "Christian" community. When the judgmentalism begins on a whole subset of our species by supposed "Christians" I take an immediate about face and head in the other direction, or hit the remote button.

Personally, I really don't like to be grouped into a "religion." I follow Christ and his words for they are a good way to lead one's life. I also recognize Christ as a son of GOD. However, also feel we are all the sons and daughters of GOD. Jesus stated that the way through salvation is to go with him. I happily would follow him for he was a compassionate person with great belief in GOD.

All the great masters have been crucified, villified, or whatever for I feel are more than belief. Just as GOD has taken care of man with different races, etc depending on the evolutionary location one is located, GOD also has spoken to each group in his own way and in a way each group should understand. That is why the majority of your major "religions" all point in the same direction.

[edit on 15-9-2005 by madmanacrosswater]

Originally posted by saint4God
That's what He said He does, not me.

You are a unique individual who thinks he has had direct communion with god. Is this what he told you directly, or is this what the Bible tells you?

Originally posted by spamandham
You are a unique individual who thinks he has had direct communion with god.

Why? Is that not what is supposed to happen? I think having a personal relationship with God is fundamental to the faith. I think you'll find I'm as unique as you may think.

Originally posted by spamandham
Is this what he told you directly, or is this what the Bible tells you?

He referred me to the Book. Any direct communication was from not being able to figure it out with the Book nor through experience. Ironically enough, it verifies with both so guess I just wasn't "getting it" before. Everything has to 'verify' for me, which is one of my shortcomings sometimes. It causes me to hesitate on things I should know are right, which can equate to missed opportunity. Not that was directly communicated, though with different words.

Yeah yeah, I'm crazy, different, weird, etc., whatever, doesn't make a difference to me and candidly I'm bored of hearing it . Don't listen to me, listen to the message, check with Him, see what He says.

[edit on 15-9-2005 by saint4God]

Everything has to 'verify' for me, which is one of my shortcomings sometimes.

That's part of that "science" thing isn't it my friend?

I don't consider it a shortcoming. However, it does take away "gut" instinct. The instinct that first thought is usually the correct one.

I've never really 'got' religion, let alone the relationship fiasco with God. Sure any christian on this forum may think themselves lucky as they share their belief with so many. Yet, it is still only 1/6 of the population of this planet. So why is the other 5/6 of the people on earth not got this 'personal relationship'?

Originally posted by saint4God
He referred me to the Book.

In that case, where does the Bible say that god must punish sin?

Originally posted by saint4God
TheCrystalSword, I've found here Bible quotin' ain't much good so I'll give answers as best as I can and if you'd like to know how I came about them, then I'll gladly expand. Experiences too can be blamed on "being a nut" but am hoping by now you don't see me as such. If you do, s'okay because I'm just here to provide answers to these burning questions most of us have had for a long time, not impress anyone.

I do not see you as a nut, just as I do not see any religious person as a nut. Perhaps misguided at times, but through no fault of their own... but then, one could say the same of me, and it boils down to a matter of perspective.

God is merciful, he does not want to punish anyone, HOWEVER God is just, therefore must punish sin.

So yes, God's love has conditions.

Example. I love my daughter very much. If she messes up, I have to punish her. I don't want to, but I must because it is the right thing to do. She does not get infinite opportunities to err though. She has to learn, grow, and cease doing that wrong.

I do seem to recall in my bible studies a passage wherein an apostle inquires of Christ how they should live their lives, and specifically asks about the limits of forgiveness. The passage essentially ends up being "Forgiveness has no limitation but what man puts upon it."

Now, one might say punishment preceded forgiveness... and that punishment alone does not exclude forgiveness. HOWEVER, if God's love is without condition, Hell CANNOT be an eternal punishment if Forgiveness is always possible. And if it is NOT possible for the soul after death, then that now puts a condition on God's love; ask forgiveness before you die. Which of course makes God's love conditional.

I believe every soul has the opportunity to succeed. Otherwise, I see no reason why Jesus would have to bother teaching and getting physically killed.

To show THE PATH. To reveal unto man that God's Love is unconditional and divine. His death does NOT represent the lifting of sins of mankind, but rather, that sin itself cannot bind us to the flesh. To tread the path of light frees us from physicality and the bonds of this world. It is Transcendental, and I have always found his LIFE having more importance than his DEATH (Mostly because the reasons assumed for his death often gall me).

Not necessarily. They undergo a very strong judgement. Revelation 20:11. I can tell you though, if you have confessed to God those sins and accept Jesus Christ as saviour and teacher then you will be forgiven and you will have eternal life guarenteed. John 3:16. Heaven is a free gift.

I have always found the confession concept to be somewhat trite, if I confess I am forgiven? As simple as that? Of course god knows the souls of the confessor, so you obviously mean if you plead forgiveness with sincerity rather than merely confess.

On the subject of my own sins, I do not choose to forgive myself because they help to remind me never to commit them again.

And, on the Subject of God knowing your heart... God would also know your reasons for committing the acts. On top of that, God is prescient, and as such, would know the choices made before you are a twinkle in your mothers eye... so prejudgment becomes reality, and with a Judgmental god, he is condemning the soul in advance by putting it on the world. If God is Omniscient (All knowing), this is a result of that Omniscience. If God himself puts souls on the earth KNOWING (As he must) that they will commit sin and burn in hell, then I would personally like to tear God down from his place in heaven, for that... in my eyes, is sadistic and cruel to all mankind.

Pardon my strong feeling on this subject, this is one of the primary reasons I believe in a Creator without Conditional Love.

It is certainly possible to lie to yourself. I did it way back when, but deep down I knew it was a lie and after much spiritual antagonism I confessed and got rid of it.

Some people lie so well that they never realize, or get the feeling, that they have lied to themselves.

My Book stops after that point. I do not know, but it says "eternity" and "a second death" so must take it as such.

You cite what sounds to me like oblivion, which the Atheists believe in... and which, if I did not believe in a Creator, would be rather comforting an idea. Ceasing to be is scary to many, though.

Since the beginning, mankind has had a way to turning it's back to God without acknowledging consequence. This is in place so that believers will know, see and understand there is consequence. I don't know if hell ever caused anyone to come to God, but I do know that if you come to God out of love and not fear, it's an easier relationship to have.

This of course relies upon the idea that hell is an eternal prison, which you or I do not know. If it is, God is a cruel and malicious god. If it isn't, there may be some elbowroom for a re-assessment on my part.

You'd be surprised how much reason God has for doing things.

Seeing as I am a Pseudo-Fatalist, no, no I wouldn't.

Absolutely. He said so Himself.

I see.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
If god can be jealous, then can it/he/she be petulant or petty?

**FIXED QUOTE** Said by Saint4God
No. That's a human trait based on emotional backlashing tied to sin.

No, because any singular human emotion is tied to the other emotions. If god can be jealous, it is safe to assume that he can be petulant or petty.

pet·ty Audio pronunciation of "petty" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pt)
adj. pet·ti·er, pet·ti·est

1. Of small importance; trivial: a petty grievance.
2. Marked by narrowness of mind, ideas, or views.
3. Marked by meanness or lack of generosity, especially in trifling matters.
4. Secondary in importance or rank; subordinate. See Synonyms at trivial.
5. Law. Variant of petit.

I believe the SECOND definition serves.

This is how it used to be. We messed that up. I believe this is how it will be again someday, but first He's got to clean house.

I would say if you are referring to the old Testament, this is not how God ever was. Concerning the New Testament, if what you say is true, then God Never was what I said. Assuming this is the truth, which I believe it not to be.

On the subject of "CLEAN HOUSE", your usage of that term means to me that God considers much of mankind to be dirty, unclean, and unwanted. This is not an unconditional love statement, no matter which way you slice it.

Guilt has a purpose. It tells us when we're guilty. Ignoring (instead of facing) all guilt is like taking all the warning signs down from a minefield. *BOOM!* then we wonder why on earth we're suffering. Hm....

I prefer an earth of suffering, because without pain there can be no understandable joy. I have a few friends who wish that they could heal all the ills in the world... I can frankly say I would kill them were they to try. Make the world a better place? Okay, that's all well and good. Heal all ills? I like the world imperfect. Perfection is an ideal never to be attained, not for want of trying. If everything was joy, it would be banal... and if somehow I was forced to enjoy this joyful universe, my true self (Which would have to be erased) would have to kill itself to not participate in such a place. Joy everywhere renders joy insincere, obsolete, and meaningless. I much rather the contrast.

On the subject of guilt, I have this to say; I believe guilt is what we face when we die, by no power of god. We are our own judge, jury, and executioner in the afterlife. If we deem ourselves worthy of that eternal
reward, so be it. If we don't, then we shall render our own hell for us.

Hehe. We don't punish ourselves nearly enough for the things we think and do that harm Him, nor could we ever.

On that, you are wrong in my case.

We abuse Him like an unwanted animal then wonder why we don't get any help. Still, He said He's there, ready to forgive when we're willing to say sorry, and promises eternal happiness when we accept Him and his son.

I don't want eternal happiness. Neither do I want eternal pain. All I need is to know of the Creators love and its desire for life to continue to carry me through.

How great God is for that! Once we can see our own sin, then we realize the magnitude of just how badly we're screwing things up. Putting a blindfold on just leads to stepping on more mines - *BOOM!*

Of course if you ignore your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them, this is what you just said, paraphrased and shortened. Everyone is cursed in such a way. Learn or do not learn, the first is conducive to personal growth. There are many who do the latter.

Why would God create an individual just to take away that individuality? This seems pointless.

Indeed, we agree on that. However, there are people who are forced into choices of sin, and there are some who don't have the faculties to be considered "FREE WILLED". Still, others, who are broken in their age of innocence to a point that they can never function like a human being again. What of these earthly damned souls?

Each person has a soul and if you've ever witnessed The Change, there no longer is any doubt.

No. Everyone doesn't have a soul. This is a sad truth. MOST do. Indeed, I would argue that there are very few who lack souls, but there are those who don't have a soul. This is a shame and a pity. I know that there are those who have forsaken their soul utterly through ritual and agreement/contract. There is NO hope for them.

I am unsure which particular change you are referring to.

That's between you and Him. I'm just a messenger.

And I am a Servant. At some point, I may explain what I mean by that. No, I didn't unintentionally capitalize it.

We're not God, therefore cannot save ourselves.

On that point, I would say you are incorrect. I would say that the ONLY one that can save you is yourself.

Why does everyone think heaven is boring? Like some kind of empty field in Iowa?

I never insinuated it was boring. I merely stated that an eternal paradise is something I personally would reject, not because of hatred of God, but because of LOVE of MANKIND in all it's flawed glory.

*sigh* Enjoy the garbage heap then and keep that blind eye on all the pain, malice, suffering, death and destruction, else you might see something quite shocking.

I see more than just the suffering. You seem to think I do not feel enjoyment, love, and peace. Vitae, that essence which I imbibe, is a bittersweet mix. I would have no other.

And yet heaven is devoid of laughter and good times? On the contrary, it is all there.

Heaven is devoid of sorrow, pain, suffering, death, loss, hatred, anger, and all the negativity we encounter on a day to day basis. Without which, there is no meaning to laughter or good times. I am sure that God could force a meaning to this one-sided coin, but then I would prefer no heaven... because it wouldn't be ME, it would be my spirit with FORCED joy on it.

I do tend to comment quite a bit, if it's too much just let me know

. And interesting conversation I think though, without a doubt.

Not at all. Yet realize, as I stated when I first posted, my beliefs and passions are nuanced... if I offend you, know that I likely offend many because I tend not to take sides, and my own views are complex.



[edit on 9/15/2005 by TheCrystalSword]

[edit on 9/15/2005 by TheCrystalSword]

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
He referred me to the Book.

In that case, where does the Bible say that god must punish sin?

Concerning this, if God is the Maker of all things, then he could have defined realities rules-sets to be quite different. Punishment isn't necessary unless God WISHES it to be necessary, and thusly, A God who desires to punish will make it necessary.

Heh.

Now then, I did mention before the Unmaker... and as a slight allusion, I don't believe God controls all things. I believe there is an eternal struggle between dualistic All-powerful entities... one of Absolute Creation, the other of Absolute Erasure. (Destruction isn't the opposite of creation, as it relies upon what is made.)

If the above is true... then God didn't make all the rules, he only oversaw creation.

Originally posted by spamandham
In that case, where does the Bible say that god must punish sin?

Exodus 34:7 - "Yet He does not leave the guilty unpunished" is one example that comes to mind. Jesus talks about a few throughout the gospels and his parables and about his sacrifice being the salvation from this punishment. A way to lift that guilt is by believing that this is what he's doing, and in that belief we can come clean. Revelation 20:11 is another. There's plenty of others from beginning to end, it's all there, but I've never seen a Bible come with a pair of free fuzzy bunny slippers because it is a cozy book. Just to clarify, the Bible is the word of God, a product to tell us about Him, not a rulebook for Him to follow.


[edit on 15-9-2005 by saint4God]