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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I do not see you as a nut, just as I do not see any religious person as a nut.


Thank you, I appreciate it.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Perhaps misguided at times, but through no fault of their own... but then, one could say the same of me, and it boils down to a matter of perspective.


I can understand how you could see me as such, as I can see the way I used to be take one look at the way I am now and think "no way".


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
So yes, God's love has conditions.


He does not love sin, that I know. So I guess he cannot love everything and in that I can see how it is conditional.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I do seem to recall in my bible studies a passage wherein an apostle inquires of Christ how they should live their lives, and specifically asks about the limits of forgiveness. The passage essentially ends up being "Forgiveness has no limitation but what man puts upon it."


She has until the end of her life to make it right. I don't know precisely how it is dealt with happens after that. Also, the assumption here is that she asks for forgiveness. If she does not ask for forgiveness, nor is sorry for any wrong doing, what's to forgive? None of this would negate my love for her though, but punishment would continue until she made it right.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Now, one might say punishment preceded forgiveness... and that punishment alone does not exclude forgiveness. HOWEVER, if God's love is without condition,


Help me out here on where this is being said. Also, help me to understand why God (or anyone) cannot love AND punish?


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Hell CANNOT be an eternal punishment if Forgiveness is always possible. And if it is NOT possible for the soul after death, then that now puts a condition on God's love; ask forgiveness before you die. Which of course makes God's love conditional.


There is still that judgement. I don't know what happens when the books are opened, but it's unnecessary to take the chance when it can be guarenteed. Also, I don't know how it looks in the books when you reject that free gift in order to cling to sin.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
To show THE PATH. To reveal unto man that God's Love is unconditional and divine. His death does NOT represent the lifting of sins of mankind, but rather, that sin itself cannot bind us to the flesh. To tread the path of light frees us from physicality and the bonds of this world.


Again, don't know what source you're getting this information.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
It is Transcendental, and I have always found his LIFE having more importance than his DEATH (Mostly because the reasons assumed for his death often gall me).


I find his resurrection the most important.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I have always found the confession concept to be somewhat trite, if I confess I am forgiven? As simple as that?


Yeah. Believe in God, invite Jesus to come into your life as His son and savoiur, confess those sins to him (with the understanding that you'll be doing your best to not repeat them). That's it. It's that easy. It's a free gift, as promised.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Of course god knows the souls of the confessor, so you obviously mean if you plead forgiveness with sincerity rather than merely confess.


Absolutely. Insincerity is useless. Nobody cares about lip-service.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
On the subject of my own sins, I do not choose to forgive myself because they help to remind me never to commit them again.


Forgive does not mean forget. I've sinned against others and they have forgiven me. They have not forgotten, but they accept the change and love me regardless of the past. Likewise for them.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
And, on the Subject of God knowing your heart... God would also know your reasons for committing the acts.


Ya. Important point you've made here.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
On top of that, God is prescient, and as such, would know the choices made before you are a twinkle in your mothers eye... so prejudgment becomes reality, and with a Judgmental god, he is condemning the soul in advance by putting it on the world. If God is Omniscient (All knowing), this is a result of that Omniscience. If God himself puts souls on the earth KNOWING (As he must) that they will commit sin and burn in hell,


My friends and I are split on this notion. I see God as a macro-manager in the fact that He intentionally doesn't pull every sting of everything we do. I believe He has given us the setting and the ability to make moment by moment choices. A great gift but one we spoiled in the beginning. Now, some friends would say we're just 'going through the motions to grow' but doesn't seem to have much point to me overall. Guess I'll find out when I get there. Not a major point of salvation really.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
then I would personally like to tear God down from his place in heaven, for that... in my eyes, is sadistic and cruel to all mankind.


You're applying your reasoning as to why God is doing things to God's reasoning to why He's doing things, which He Himself said is not the same as mankind's. I'd be more interested in hearing about where all the animosity in your statement is coming from.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Pardon my strong feeling on this subject, this is one of the primary reasons I believe in a Creator without Conditional Love.


I think it is good that you have strong feelings because it shows you care. I'd rather that than indifference. Apathy is spiritually lethal I think.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Some people lie so well that they never realize, or get the feeling, that they have lied to themselves.


It's possible to cake on denial until the original lie is no longer seen I think, yes.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
You cite what sounds to me like oblivion, which the Atheists believe in... and which, if I did not believe in a Creator, would be rather comforting an idea. Ceasing to be is scary to many, though.


I never heard of oblivion being "gnawing and gnashing of teeth" nor an "eternal fire".


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
This of course relies upon the idea that hell is an eternal prison, which you or I do not know. If it is, God is a cruel and malicious god. If it isn't, there may be some elbowroom for a re-assessment on my part.


You and He on that one. I just know what is given.



You'd be surprised how much reason God has for doing things.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Seeing as I am a Pseudo-Fatalist, no, no I wouldn't.


Help me out with that term please. I'd not heard of it before.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
No, because any singular human emotion is tied to the other emotions. If god can be jealous, it is safe to assume that he can be petulant or petty.


I don't like to assume things about God. Nor would I get into name-calling unless He Himself says to be the case.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I would say if you are referring to the old Testament, this is not how God ever was. Concerning the New Testament, if what you say is true, then God Never was what I said. Assuming this is the truth, which I believe it not to be.


Specifically was speaking on Genesis.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
On the subject of "CLEAN HOUSE", your usage of that term means to me that God considers much of mankind to be dirty, unclean, and unwanted. This is not an unconditional love statement, no matter which way you slice it.


I'll accept dirty and unclean, but did not mean to say unwanted. Who would have their one and only son sacrificed to save thousands of unwanted folks?


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I prefer an earth of suffering, because without pain there can be no understandable joy.


I've heard this philosphy before, but I'm an Absolutest, meaning I believe that good can exist without evil. It only takes knowledge of evil, not the existence of it, to understand good from the current human condition. God on the other hand is not bound by our rules I think.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I have a few friends who wish that they could heal all the ills in the world... I can frankly say I would kill them were they to try.


This would deem worthy of counseling, not because of mental stability, but because having such strong rage against the idea cannot be a healthy thing to carry around. Just so happens I know a Counselor.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Make the world a better place? Okay, that's all well and good. Heal all ills? I like the world imperfect. Perfection is an ideal never to be attained, not for want of trying. If everything was joy, it would be banal... and if somehow I was forced to enjoy this joyful universe, my true self (Which would have to be erased) would have to kill itself to not participate in such a place. Joy everywhere renders joy insincere, obsolete, and meaningless. I much rather the contrast.


Perfection isn't boredom. You'll know the pain of this earth in the afterlife, why continue it? Maybe hell is that contrast. Perhaps so that those in heaven don't lose sight of what they have. Again, a you and He conversation.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
On the subject of guilt, I have this to say; I believe guilt is what we face when we die, by no power of god. We are our own judge, jury, and executioner in the afterlife. If we deem ourselves worthy of that eternal
reward, so be it. If we don't, then we shall render our own hell for us.


Most of us can't find our car keys, and we're going to somehow have the supernatural power to provide our eternity?


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword


Hehe. We don't punish ourselves nearly enough for the things we think and do that harm Him, nor could we ever.

On that, you are wrong in my case.


Very well. I take it you punish yourself for the harm you're doing to God. My question then is, knowing this, why wouldn't you say sorry and resolve not to do it again? The guarentee is there that you'll be forgiven if you tell him that and accept that a man-part of God, his son, already died so you could be free from that guilt. Then there would be no need to punish yourself because after His forgiveness He will feel no need to punish you either, rather embrace who you are lovingly.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I don't want eternal happiness. Neither do I want eternal pain. All I need is to know of the Creators love and its desire for life to continue to carry me through.


Is that good enough? I don't know. I'm not the judge. I can say Jesus reports God as having a "it's one or the other" kind of decisioning in his parable of the shepherd and some others.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Of course if you ignore your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them, this is what you just said, paraphrased and shortened. Everyone is cursed in such a way. Learn or do not learn, the first is conducive to personal growth. There are many who do the latter.


I agree. Problem is most of us cannot even see our sins...er..mistakes. How then can you learn from them?


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Indeed, we agree on that. However, there are people who are forced into choices of sin, and there are some who don't have the faculties to be considered "FREE WILLED". Still, others, who are broken in their age of innocence to a point that they can never function like a human being again. What of these earthly damned souls?


How forced into sin? If the choice is sin or death, then death is the better choice. If physically forced to sin, then your will is not involved at all. God knows this much more so than any of us could imagine. He knows their hearts, none of us could pass that kind of judgement.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
No. Everyone doesn't have a soul. This is a sad truth. MOST do. Indeed, I would argue that there are very few who lack souls, but there are those who don't have a soul. This is a shame and a pity. I know that there are those who have forsaken their soul utterly through ritual and agreement/contract. There is NO hope for them.


I'll disagree on both. There is always hope because "nothing is impossible with God".


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I am unsure which particular change you are referring to.


The same I'm mentioning here. Accepting God, Jesus Christ as son and saviour, asking forgiveness for sins. I'm never seen anyone come away the same person and you can see their soul animate their life in such a way that in contrast, made them look dead before. It's that huge of a change.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
And I am a Servant. At some point, I may explain what I mean by that. No, I didn't unintentionally capitalize it.


Hey, me too. But I'm sure you have a different definition. I'd certainly welcome yours and respect you position. I appreciate the respect you've given to mine as well
.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
On that point, I would say you are incorrect. I would say that the ONLY one that can save you is yourself.


Alright then, we disagree.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I never insinuated it was boring. I merely stated that an eternal paradise is something I personally would reject, not because of hatred of God, but because of LOVE of MANKIND in all it's flawed glory.


Guess where the good of mankind go after this? Somewhere that's for sure. We don't get to hang around here with the other 70 + - lifespanners, that seems pretty clear. I love other people, but not the evils they do. I can love a murderer, but can not love murder.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I see more than just the suffering. You seem to think I do not feel enjoyment, love, and peace. Vitae, that essence which I imbibe, is a bittersweet mix. I would have no other.


It seems you gain enjoyment, love and peace through the negative things as well, which seems to be spiritually unhealthy.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Heaven is devoid of sorrow, pain, suffering, death, loss, hatred, anger, and all the negativity we encounter on a day to day basis.


Good definition.



Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Without which, there is no meaning to laughter or good times. I am sure that God could force a meaning to this one-sided coin, but then I would prefer no heaven... because it wouldn't be ME, it would be my spirit with FORCED joy on it.


Then the holding on to the precious you in total is what would keep you from seeing such a place. I see where you are coming from though. I didn't want to 'change for God' because I was afraid of becoming a different person. Truth be told, I wasn't really me with all the weights holding me down. Afterwards though, minus the fear, pain, frustration and anguish, I discovered there was a very happy person underneath who could boldly do the things always hoped for. I had this given power to change for the better that was unobtainable on my own. Hehe, I guess that is a "power of Christianity", looping back to the thread title. This though is small in comparison to all the things He can do.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Not at all. Yet realize, as I stated when I first posted, my beliefs and passions are nuanced... if I offend you, know that I likely offend many because I tend not to take sides, and my own views are complex.


I think we're on the same playing field then. Apologies in advance if ever I offend you, but is certainly not my intention.

[edit on 15-9-2005 by saint4God]




posted on Sep, 15 2005 @ 11:15 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Exodus 34:7 - "Yet He does not leave the guilty unpunished" is one example that comes to mind. Jesus talks about a few throughout the gospels and his parables and about his sacrifice being the salvation from this punishment.


These say that he does punish sin, they do not say that he must. Do you agree?



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 02:37 AM
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He does not love sin, that I know. So I guess he cannot love everything and in that I can see how it is conditional.


God requires acceptance of his love and desire for forgiveness. The other thing he requires is hazy because sin itself can't be agreed upon by individuals. I, personally, am likely rather sinful... at least by biblical definition. Choices I have made, and manners in which I live might be considered sinful. As such, God turns his face from those who he considers to be unworthy of his love, even should they not know they sin (Because despite however well you might feel it's easy to tell, many people can't.)



She has until the end of her life to make it right. I don't know precisely how it is dealt with happens after that. Also, the assumption here is that she asks for forgiveness. If she does not ask for forgiveness, nor is sorry for any wrong doing, what's to forgive? None of this would negate my love for her though, but punishment would continue until she made it right.


Who is "She"? There is a reference where Christ says that you forgive as much as asked. I was mentioning this in reference to people who constantly disappoint that forgiveness. According to Christ, you should always forgive.



Help me out here on where this is being said. Also, help me to understand why God (or anyone) cannot love AND punish?


In reference to parenting. Parents tend to punish then forgive, since it teaches children that there are always repurcussions for their actions.



There is still that judgement. I don't know what happens when the books are opened, but it's unnecessary to take the chance when it can be guarenteed. Also, I don't know how it looks in the books when you reject that free gift in order to cling to sin.


Fair enough. Since you don't know what happens after life, I'll just ignore hell as a topic since in and of itself it was invented by contemporary christians (Original word being Shayol in Hebrew, and a very different place).




Again, don't know what source you're getting this information.


Gnostic teachings.




I find his resurrection the most important.


I do have a question about the death thing... is not the Cross an Idol? Worship of the cross, or the fish symbol, seems idolatry to me. Worshipping a representative symbol...



Forgive does not mean forget. I've sinned against others and they have forgiven me. They have not forgotten, but they accept the change and love me regardless of the past. Likewise for them.


It is good that they did. Perhaps I am not so fortunate as to be able to be forgiven.



Ya. Important point you've made here.


Yes... but I don't think the biblical god counts meaning for actions as relevant, if it's considered a sin whatever reason for it doesn't matter.




My friends and I are split on this notion. I see God as a macro-manager in the fact that He intentionally doesn't pull every sting of everything we do. I believe He has given us the setting and the ability to make moment by moment choices. A great gift but one we spoiled in the beginning. Now, some friends would say we're just 'going through the motions to grow' but doesn't seem to have much point to me overall. Guess I'll find out when I get there. Not a major point of salvation really.


Regardless which it is, an All-Knowing being would also know every outcome and the likelihood of every outcome... and again, if he is all powerful, he doesn't have to challenge individuals with many situations... he does not have to put people into that situation, just like he did not have to put the TREE in the garden of eden. It wasn't required, and he must have known that Adam and Eve would "Sin" if we are discussing the common bible versus the Gnostic texts.



Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
then I would personally like to tear God down from his place in heaven, for that... in my eyes, is sadistic and cruel to all mankind.




I'd be more interested in hearing about where all the animosity in your statement is coming from.


Why is complex and is involved in what I'm talking about. I only display animosity if a certain premise is true. If God is all powerful, he can create a universe where FREE WILL and LACK OF SIN exist. Or, if he is all loving, he would ACCEPT ALL THINGS with compassion and love more infinite than a common "FATHERS", which is reducing God's expression to human levels.

If God made the universe knowing each soul and when they would fall/sin and if they would ask his forgiveness or not, if he MADE it that way and KNOWS the outcome, then he is a cruel and malicious god... and by that statement, not any other, I wish to personally tear god down.

Which is why I believe in an All Loving god without conditions or requirements for love, not even "LIVING A GOOD LIFE".

That being said, I do not live a horrid life and go out of my way to hurt others. I prefer to make my decisions believing that it didn't matter, that way, if I don't hurt someone when I could have it has more importance to me and me personally, not some complex system of good and evil.



I think it is good that you have strong feelings because it shows you care. I'd rather that than indifference. Apathy is spiritually lethal I think.


I care for humanity, that is my place of things.



It's possible to cake on denial until the original lie is no longer seen I think, yes.


And such people are lost in shadows, God Forsakes they that lie to themselves.



I never heard of oblivion being "gnawing and gnashing of teeth" nor an "eternal fire".


However, you have said that in the end, the 2nd and final death involves destroying hell.. which is oblivion then. Assuming Hell exists.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Seeing as I am a Pseudo-Fatalist, no, no I wouldn't.




Help me out with that term please. I'd not heard of it before.


A fatalist is one who believes that our decisions are all made ahead of time and free will is an illusion. I am a Pseudo-Fatalist, in that I have a complex fate belief which applies more to some than others.



I don't like to assume things about God. Nor would I get into name-calling unless He Himself says to be the case.


By definition of petty, and by description within the bible, God is petty in some cases.



I'll accept dirty and unclean, but did not mean to say unwanted. Who would have their one and only son sacrificed to save thousands of unwanted folks?


Dirty and Unclean, right there seems to insinuate that God has some disgust issues with the sinful. You certainly can be loving and frown on behavior or be disgusted with it. However, to be ALL LOVING is an absolute value that doesn't allow this particular negative perception. If we are all makings of God, there should never be a reason for God to consider his makings Dirty or Unclean.



I've heard this philosphy before, but I'm an Absolutest, meaning I believe that good can exist without evil. It only takes knowledge of evil, not the existence of it, to understand good from the current human condition. God on the other hand is not bound by our rules I think.


I never argued it wasn't possible to have good without evil, I only argued that reality is better than "PURE GOOD" in my eyes. Again, I am certain God can make everyone enjoy their blissful Heavenly existence, but that would be what it is for me... he would have to make me enjoy it because I value tears and such equally as much as laughter.



This would deem worthy of counseling, not because of mental stability, but because having such strong rage against the idea cannot be a healthy thing to carry around. Just so happens I know a Counselor.


So wait, making everyone blissful is OK? Making everyone enjoy their existence without any means of comparing it to anything else is BETTER? Eliminating the sick, the poor, the crippled, the meak from the earth so that the world can be a better place? Make everyone healthy and happy and whole? This is good to you?

This is bad for humanity as a whole. Total prosperity would only encourage laziness and apathy, and we would cease to move. Protecting the perseverence of mankind and its desire to grow and reach beyond our grasp is wrong and shows I need counselling?



Perfection isn't boredom. You'll know the pain of this earth in the afterlife, why continue it? Maybe hell is that contrast. Perhaps so that those in heaven don't lose sight of what they have. Again, a you and He conversation.


PERFECTION, by DEFINITION requires no further EXISTENCE. You merely EXIST once you have achieved perfection. You no longer have a reason to BE. I would prefer to have meaning than none. I would rather a destination I shall never reach than knowing the race is over and there is NOTHING MORE TO DO.



Most of us can't find our car keys, and we're going to somehow have the supernatural power to provide our eternity?


No. Our avatar does... or if you wish, our spirit. That which is essence of god that has been within us all of our life, which remembers everything you have done and can reveal it to you outside of yourself... showing you your life and mistakes from the third person. You judge yourself because after death, a part of you feels nothing and can judge and view things from a detached standpoint. It can determine right choices and wrong choices devoid of your IRL biases.



Very well. I take it you punish yourself for the harm you're doing to God.


No. To others. Not to God.



My question then is, knowing this, why wouldn't you say sorry and resolve not to do it again? The guarentee is there that you'll be forgiven if you tell him that and accept that a man-part of God, his son, already died so you could be free from that guilt.


The worst enemy of man is himself. Nobody knows everything they will do.




I agree. Problem is most of us cannot even see our sins...er..mistakes. How then can you learn from them?


A part of us does that exists within. It is important not to self-deceive or block out memories of things you've done wrong. Remembering and learning from the mistakes is very important to accepting responsibility for mistakes.



How forced into sin? If the choice is sin or death, then death is the better choice. If physically forced to sin, then your will is not involved at all. God knows this much more so than any of us could imagine. He knows their hearts, none of us could pass that kind of judgement.


"Of Mice and Men", was it wrong to kill the retarded character in the end? Did he know he sinned?


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
No. Everyone doesn't have a soul. This is a sad truth. MOST do. Indeed, I would argue that there are very few who lack souls, but there are those who don't have a soul. This is a shame and a pity. I know that there are those who have forsaken their soul utterly through ritual and agreement/contract. There is NO hope for them.




I'll disagree on both. There is always hope because "nothing is impossible with God".


There are some who have sold their souls, and as such, have no soul to redeem. Ever. Literally.



The same I'm mentioning here. Accepting God, Jesus Christ as son and saviour, asking forgiveness for sins. I'm never seen anyone come away the same person and you can see their soul animate their life in such a way that in contrast, made them look dead before. It's that huge of a change.


Ahhh... "Being Saved". Those who I have witnessed certainly seem transformed, but not in a good way. They abandon their old friends, and change personality so drastically... and not into "THEMSELVES", often they lose interest in old hobbies and practices and become similar to other "SAVED" people. As such, I can't recognize the difference between individuals who have undergone "THE CHANGE". Sadly, it is their individuality I appreciated, and more often than not, they have little of it afterwards.



Hey, me too. But I'm sure you have a different definition. I'd certainly welcome yours and respect you position. I appreciate the respect you've given to mine as well
.


I attempt to give everyone a fair shake.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
On that point, I would say you are incorrect. I would say that the ONLY one that can save you is yourself.




Alright then, we disagree.


No, we don't. If one is not to accept God's Love and Forgiveness, they are dooming themselves. Ultimately, it is yourself which makes the choice, and only you can make it. That is why we agree.

However, I meant it differently than that... which, of course, is a nuanced disagreement.



Guess where the good of mankind go after this? Somewhere that's for sure. We don't get to hang around here with the other 70 + - lifespanners, that seems pretty clear. I love other people, but not the evils they do. I can love a murderer, but can not love murder.


You look forward to a world without any of that. I don't, for reasonings already stated. Without loss, gain has no meaning. And if it did, it would be a meaningless drug-like existence.



It seems you gain enjoyment, love and peace through the negative things as well, which seems to be spiritually unhealthy.


Not so much. All negative things hurt, but it is that hurt which contrasts our lives and allows us to differentiate between emotions. Again, drug-induced paradise is what you make me think of when you make me think of Joy without sorrow. Sure, Joy without sorrow, because Joy now has no MEANING other than drooling moronic druggies.



Good definition.



That's what I was afraid of.



Then the holding on to the precious you in total is what would keep you from seeing such a place.


Good. I prefer it if that's what Heaven is.



I see where you are coming from though. I didn't want to 'change for God' because I was afraid of becoming a different person. Truth be told, I wasn't really me with all the weights holding me down.


Has nothing to do with changing for God, has everything to do with the definition I just presented of Heaven being patently unacceptable to me as a place to exist.



Afterwards though, minus the fear, pain, frustration and anguish, I discovered there was a very happy person underneath who could boldly do the things always hoped for.


That existed with everything else, just because you are MINUS that stuff doesn't mean it wasn't there before.



I had this given power to change for the better that was unobtainable on my own. Hehe, I guess that is a "power of Christianity", looping back to the thread title. This though is small in comparison to all the things He can do.


If you believe there is anything you aren't capable of without God, then we are at odds. I believe mankind himself must accomplish everything in life, otherwise God is merely a crutch for the weak and incapable.



I think we're on the same playing field then. Apologies in advance if ever I offend you, but is certainly not my intention.


I'm rather hard to offend, mostly because I tend to be adept at offending. One grows thick skin.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 05:00 AM
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so about that relationship with god, even though 1/7 of people consider themselves christian, it's still a very small number considering 6/7 of people don't have this relationship you speak of. why is this? so only 1/7 of the population go to heaven because they've accepted jesus, yet 6/7 of people will go to hell because they have not accepted jesus as their saviour... yeah that makes a whole lotta sense.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 05:47 AM
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I do have a question about the death thing... is not the Cross an Idol? Worship of the cross, or the fish symbol, seems idolatry to me. Worshipping a representative symbol...


It is not the cross that is worshipped. Rather the cross is used as a daily reminder of Christ's sacrifice for us. As you said, it is a representative symbol used as a reminder. (At least that's what I consider it.)



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 06:39 AM
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Myself i`ve been involved with two church`s in each one no one wore a cross nor was there one displayed anywhere,one of those church`s had 1500 people that would attend i never saw anyone wear a cross.My feeling on it is this, yes Christ died on the cross for us.But we are aware and know that he rose up,so why remember him dead?

If there were little Christs carrying little cross`s displayed on mantle pieces or around peoples necks i`d just assume that it was to remind us that we are to remember that we too have to carry the burden of Christs path as well but cant understand why people would need it.Besides anything thats ontop of our tv stereo cabnet i forget about in five minutes after its put there.

I dont like seeing my lord dead on a cross because he`s alive,simple for me.

A bare cross as a reminder,well i dont need it hanging around my neck to remind me because it would`nt, i`d forget it was there,now if its for the purpose others can see it and know your Christian,a cross around your or anyones neck is not an indicator of a Christian,its confessing him and wittnessing for him as your Lord and Saviour thats how i view it anyhow.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
These say that he does punish sin, they do not say that he must. Do you agree?


He said he would in the future. Are you saying He lies or does not fulfill His word? That doesn't fit the pattern of the rest of the Book which is full of promises (that he kept and we broke), truth, integrity, etc. I say 'must' because He said it was, is and will be the way he does things, not that He's mandated by any higher authority, rather because He is the authority. I don't like nor want punishment for any of us, but again not my decision.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
so about that relationship with god, even though 1/7 of people consider themselves christian, it's still a very small number considering 6/7 of people don't have this relationship you speak of. why is this? so only 1/7 of the population go to heaven because they've accepted jesus, yet 6/7 of people will go to hell because they have not accepted jesus as their saviour... yeah that makes a whole lotta sense.



10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


If those fractions are correct Shauny it will be less than 1/7 get to Heaven
not everyone who says their a Christian actually is but ultimatly thats for God to decide,it comes down to following the word and Christ`s example and being prepared before hand and as the Bible states the time is now.

What i`d like to know Shauny is out of the 7/7 how many have been told?



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
He said he would in the future. Are you saying He lies or does not fulfill His word?


There are examples in the Old Testament where god grants leniency when he had previously stated condemnation. One example is Genesis 19:18-22.

The Bible says god punishes sin, but then Jesus came along with an 'out'. The god of the Bible has already demonstrated that mercy can be granted, and in the case of Lot's request, such mercy can be obtained by a righteous individual for others who have not requested it.

You call it a lie if he tells us he punishes sin and then doesn't, yet for some reason you don't see that this is exactly what happens through Jesus.

John 3:35
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.


The father gave all people to Jesus.

John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.


Jesus will give eternal life to all that have been given him, and everyone has been given to him.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.


The father gave him everyone, and everyone will come to the Son and not be driven away.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.


It is god's will that all be saved, and Jesus was a ransom for all men.


Are these passages lies?



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:24 AM
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ok, so 1/7 today believe. do we think this is more or less than in the past? I would say more because at some point christianity was claimed be a small number of people. so when all is said and done less than 13% of all the people that ever lived (at the very most) will go to heaven and the rest will go to hell. Is Jesus supposed to lose at the end? or will he win because he takes his few followers and damns everyone else to BURN IN HELL!!!! for eternity.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
There are examples in the Old Testament where god grants leniency when he had previously stated condemnation. One example is Genesis 19:18-22.


The angels (who do God's work) told Lot to go, because anyone who remained in the city would feel wrath. Lot asked to go to a town instead of the mountains. He got it because he was not guilty, so the judgement was not meant for him. Sodom and Gomorrah, on the other hand, got blitzed as God said. God spared the nearby town from destruction (Zoar) so He did 'pull-back' I take it, from going all out to protect the innocent.

I think you may be on to something though and would be interested in some other examples if you can find them. I don't think we're going to be able to talk God out of conducting judgement in Revelation, but we can (and I do) pray for mercy in punishment.


Originally posted by spamandham
The Bible says god punishes sin, but then Jesus came along with an 'out'. The god of the Bible has already demonstrated that mercy can be granted, and in the case of Lot's request, such mercy can be obtained by a righteous individual for others who have not requested it.


Now this is an interesting point. I do see a theme where the righteous have been able to appeal for protection/healing for others who have not requested it. Perhaps another "power" of Christianity, as Christ himself performed miracles for those who believed that affected those who perhaps did not. Am I going to ask for mercy of those who are considered guilty if I can at the day of judgement? Absolutely! In fact, I've already started.


Originally posted by spamandham
You call it a lie if he tells us he punishes sin and then doesn't, yet for some reason you don't see that this is exactly what happens through Jesus.

John 3:35
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.


The father gave all people to Jesus.

John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.


Jesus will give eternal life to all that have been given him, and everyone has been given to him.


In the prior statement the father "has placed everything in his hands" is the same as "authority over all people that he might give eternal life", not that he will. The dictionary defines might as: 1.a Have the ability to 1.b Have permission to.


Originally posted by spamandham
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.


The father gave him everyone, and everyone will come to the Son and not be driven away.


"whoever comes to me". There is a very, very important distinction being made here. Everyone may have been given or called, but few will answer that call.


Originally posted by spamandham
1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.


It is god's will that all be saved, and Jesus was a ransom for all men.

Are these passages lies?


Not his will but his "want". These words are important. To change the translation is to say something different. Yes, Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all, but again, not all will come to him. It's a easier to understand reading Matthew through Revelation, where it reiterates these points and gives detailed explanation on how all this works. For now though, I'd like to add the following:

Main Entry: atone·ment
Pronunciation: &-'tOn-m&nt
Function: noun
1 obsolete : RECONCILIATION
2 : the reconciliation of God and man through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ
www.m-w.com...

If a person does not reconcile "through" the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, not accepting that covenant, then that person is still at odds with God in the same way the people we've read of in the Old Testament were.

I'm glad you've brought these quotes forward, it helped me go back, look through them, think and consider.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by gps777
What i`d like to know Shauny is out of the 7/7 how many have been told?


you mean what percentage actually have heard of jesus and/or christian-judeo god in the world? like the extremely poor people of the world who have to worry about eating and drinking enough to survive, who don't have time to worry about what religion they believe in? i'd say close to a billion of the people on this planet live like that. are they therefore going to hell because they were so poor they didn't have time to believe in religion or accept jesus as their saviour, or even know about jesus, whilst they had to pick scraps of rice off the floor.

i think what my point shows is that 1/7 believe in christianity. of which maybe even half of that accept jesus as their saviour. so that's about 500,000 going to heaven out of the 7 billion of so on this planet. so my point is that the other 6.5 billion people, whether or not they have had the chance to learn about jesus are going to hell? yeah that makes sense!



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
are they therefore going to hell because they were so poor they didn't have time to believe in religion or accept jesus as their saviour, or even know about jesus, whilst they had to pick scraps of rice off the floor.


That's not what my Book says (Revelation 20:11 again). Looks like the people who have something to worry about are those who have heard and rejected it. John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."


Originally posted by shaunybaby
so my point is that the other 6.5 billion people, whether or not they have had the chance to learn about jesus are going to hell? yeah that makes sense!


God, being God, is just. Do we trust our own judgement to be superior and more merciful?



[edit on 16-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I think you may be on to something though and would be interested in some other examples if you can find them.


There is a similar story of Moses convincing god not to carry out the wrath he said he would.

Exd 32:10
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

...

Exd 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


In Genesis, god makes a vow never again to destroy the earth as the result of the sacrific of Noah. Although this is not abrogation per se, it does demonstrate the same concept.

Genesis 8
20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.


I think there are others, but I can't recall them at the moment.


Originally posted by saint4God
I don't think we're going to be able to talk God out of conducting judgement in Revelation,


Perhaps that was the purpose of Jesus? There are groups within Christianity who view that all eventually come to salvation through Christ. I know the hell things sounds kind of fun and all, but you can't reconcile the universalist passages with eternal damnation. However, you can reconcile the judgement passages with universalism by examing the OT passages that demonstrate mercy can be given to third parties through the righteous request of one. From the universalist perspective, Jesus has requested salvation for all, and since he is perfectly righteous, he will be granted it.


Originally posted by saint4God
For now though, I'd like to add the following:

Main Entry: atone·ment
Pronunciation: &-'tOn-m&nt
Function: noun
1 obsolete : RECONCILIATION
2 : the reconciliation of God and man through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ
www.m-w.com...

If a person does not reconcile "through" the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, not accepting that covenant, then that person is still at odds with God in the same way the people we've read of in the Old Testament were.


Interestingly, the definition you provided does not imply any action whatsoever on the part of man, including acceptance of the covenant. Jesus makes it clear that faith is good, but where does he ever say it is required? That was Paulian doctrine.

Jesus does speak of the few being chosen, and the road being narrow, but does he ever say that failure to be chosen is the same as eternal damnation? Is failure to enter the Kingdom of heaven the same as damnation, or is it just not as good? Could the chosen not be the 144,000 who have a special place reserved, whereas everyone else is spared, but unglorified?



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby



you mean what percentage actually have heard of jesus and/or christian-judeo god in the world? like the extremely poor people of the world who have to worry about eating and drinking enough to survive, who don't have time to worry about what religion they believe in?


Because of poverty hunger etc and people`s struggle in life is one of the main reason`s they seek God and are more easily accepted by God ,than rich bloated ego driven etc,the heart has to be in the right place to be accepted,so saying they dont have time is totally wrong because their poor.



whether or not they have had the chance to learn about Jesus are going to hell?


All things i believe are taken into account in a persons life based on what you have heard and your response or reaction`s to it,in the end is for God to decide a person`s fate.

Although power is given to Christs followers to make judgments on Earth which is not to be taken lightly.This is an example of great responsibility to those this was spoken for have been granted.


Matt.16
[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt.18
[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

And yes the following still applies to the Christians concerning the above verses.


Matt.7
[2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

For Christians Christ makes intercession when we are to face judgment and will speak up for the individual because Christ is their Lord based on what he has achieved for God.So to say it helps a lot being a Christian on that day would be an understatement.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
That's not what my Book says (Revelation 20:11 again). Looks like the people who have something to worry about are those who have heard and rejected it. John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."


who? who should i accept as my saviour? ''jesus christ''? who's that? do you really think his surname was 'christ'? that could be almost any random individual. so i'm supposed to accept a feminine looking, white european, long haired man as my saviour? that's not even close to what the 'real' jesus would have looked or been like. so the person you accept as your saviour is someone who was created and thus idolised by the western world, hence this ''jesus christ'' character, which could not be more different than the real jesus.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 05:41 PM
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Have we forgotten the topic in this thread? Let's revisit the origins of this thread:


Originally posted by junglejake

Stop forcing your beliefs on us

We've all heard it on here and in our day to day lives. Christianity, by being in the public square, is forcing its views on people. I find the use of the word "force" very interesting.

When people are saying that Christians having the Ten Commandments in the public square or sharing their faith is forcing their beliefs upon them, they're pretty much admitting Christianity is the Truth. If being exposed to it forces you to become a Christian, it must be the most powerful message ever to have been created (in my opinion, it is).

So I guess I agree, by Christians sharing the Gospel, they are, in fact, forcing their beliefs and God's will on you.

Now for the conspiracy aspect. If this Truth is so convincing to so many people, why is there such a concerted effort to silence it? We defend people like Robert Byrd and David Duke, who spouted hate in the KKK for so many years, yet we freak out if someone spouts love in the public arena. It seems really hypocritical if we don't factor in the fact that Christianity forces you to believe there is a right and wrong, and many people like to do wrong and feel justified doing so. So if a few people, such as THE scholars, can get together and create "a new fiction", as one of these enlightened and fair scholars said. An uncle of mine said he couldn't imagine the whole Seminar was working towards a goal of removing Christianity, but the more I look into it, the more it seems to be a large conspiracy to cover up the true message of Christianity. As of now, the "true" Jesus is remarkably like a college professor. You know, like most of THE scholars are (they call themselves THE scholars because they're the only ones who are wise enough to tell us Christianity is bunk).

So cover up the truth, but to what end? This question I leave to y'all, because I'm not sure. Why start a concerted effort to remove a message of peace and love from society through law and propoganda?


If this continues a a purely theological discussion it will be moved to Faith, Theology, etc. where it belongs imo.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 08:21 PM
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i thought i remembered reading that somewhere Intrepide, 55 pages!! later, what year was it begun again?.Well 1 thing for sure i`ve had a few hair cuts since.

This is a hard topic to stay online with,because its one reason why Christians are here online
Not for disruption in our opininion clarity.

My answer to JJ`s topic is- it does`nt matter who or what people are disccusing if they believe with a passion about something it will overflow into an unrelated topic, it just so happens that Christians are so passionate about Christ that we overflow when in the spirit 100% of the time some Christians that i admire are in that state much more often than not,that annoys or offends some people.

This has happened to even you Intrepide,when ever you get the urge to tell people you worship the Sacred Pineapple even in gest or unrelated to the topic.Though of coarse your right with the topic wavering,but was to be expected from post one.

Different people for different reaction`s of coarse,some react slightly some viciously some just simply choose to over look it,one thing thats for certain no one in their right mind could say that what Christ did or said was bad or bad for them personally,they dont have to agree in becoming a Christian follower of Christ.

Some people only know or have heard of the horror`s that some Priest`s or Christian`s who were supposed to represent Christ did,Christ did`nt do it they did,so they judge all Christians by their standards refusing to hear Christ`s word or example.

Other`s may listen and get a tinny word enter their ear,but quickly shake it off as nonesense,Satan himself can make a person his chief study to hamper more truth to enter them and or have his little helper`s do it for him or people he can enter for a quick word or two to take that oppitunity away from one recieving God`s Truth.

[edit on 16-9-2005 by gps777]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby

who? who should i accept as my saviour? ''jesus christ''? who's that? do you really think his surname was 'christ'? that could be almost any random individual. so i'm supposed to accept a feminine looking, white european, long haired man as my saviour? that's not even close to what the 'real' jesus would have looked or been like. so the person you accept as your saviour is someone who was created and thus idolised by the western world, hence this ''jesus christChrist'' character, which could not be more different than the real jesusSaviour.


Christ aside for the moment these comments is what i would call racism in its purest form.People who have these type of thoughts they judge by appearance and color and not what a person is or says.

But if you want to have a image of Christ or what to look out for in the future here you go,for all the good it will do ya?


Rev.1
[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Sounds to me as though Christs been on holidays tanning in the Bahamas don`t you?

Eye`s of fire as well? if you knew why he has eye`s of fire no one would call him femine looking regardless of what ever image you have seen i assure you.


[51] And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
[52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
[53] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


Christ had the power to call 12 legions of Angels to his beck and call?did he ?yes but he never had to.The fire is that power but his choice is and was mercy for guttless little dweeb`s murder`s thief`s etc down to everyone because we have all sinned,and have all fallen from Gods glory except for Him.Dont mistake Strength Mercy Love Kindness Grace and Truth and belittle him by referring him as weak.


[edit on 16-9-2005 by gps777]



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 04:34 AM
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Originally posted by gps777
Christ aside for the moment these comments is what i would call racism in its purest form.People who have these type of thoughts they judge by appearance and color and not what a person is or says.


it's not meant to be racist. saintforgod told me you need to accept jesus as your saviour if you want to get in to heaven, and if you have learnt about jesus and do not accept him, you don't get in. all i was pointing out was 'who is jesus'. because why not just draw a stick man and have that as your saviour? does it matter? because obviously having a white european looking man doesn't. want to know the real reason why we have that as our logo for jesus? maybe it's because of the white man's past racist history towards black folk, hence we didn't want to picture the most important man in history as black, thus the white jesus was born.




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