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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Sep, 11 2005 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword


1. Did it create spacetime?

1. Absolutely Yes.


How can spacetime be created? Doesn't the word "create" imply a time when something didn't exist, followed by some action which causes it to exist? You are implicity presupposing the existence of time.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword


2. Is it limited by logic, or it it capable of actual contradiction?


2. Absolutely Not. I would love to have a conversation about this, because the human mind isn't designed for this and this is where most of the trouble with these conversations arise out of.


I'm assuming this answer means that it is capable of actual contradiction? Since you acknowledge that the human mind is not capable of comprehending an actual contradiction, how can you conclude it is capable of actual contradition?

Is it bound by existence?




posted on Sep, 11 2005 @ 09:47 PM
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How can spacetime be created? Doesn't the word "create" imply a time when something didn't exist, followed by some action which causes it to exist? You are implicity presupposing the existence of time.


No, Create is not reliant upon time or the passage thereof. In fact, time in and of itself is merely a measure of entropy. In a universe which lacks entropy, creation can take place. This means, to us within time, that everything would appear to happen at once... but really there is no means to measure since the concept of space/time doesn't exist in a static environment. Indeed, we dismiss the possibility of a static environment because it is so difficult to comprehend.

Action and movement do not have to rely upon passage through space/time... and even less so for an omniscient being.




I'm assuming this answer means that it is capable of actual contradiction? Since you acknowledge that the human mind is not capable of comprehending an actual contradiction, how can you conclude it is capable of actual contradition?


*Chuckles* I never represented the human mind as being incapable of the concept, I said it wasn't designed for it. This does not, in fact, mean that it cannot be grasped, only that it is not naturally conducive to regular human thought processes.

Am omniscient being has the capability to A) Create a rock that it cannot lift and B) Lift it in the same instant.

How is this possible? When you make the rules, you can remake them or ignore them altogether. In fact, logical fractures are exactly the point of an omniscient being, being able to violate ones own ascribed rulesets.

I do not see why it is difficult to accept that an omniscient being could contradict itself ad nauseum without ever having to deal with repurcussions thereof.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 07:19 AM
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Shauny alot of people myself included did not study the bible to find God i had not picked one up before i asked God into my life so if it amuses you to think your debunking the Bible and God have fun.


So why if seeking GOD did you pick up the Bible? The reason is that it is the majority "religion" in this country. If you were really seeking GOD you would look inside your heart, and the world around you. That is where the true answers lay. You proved Shauny's point.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 07:23 AM
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Must be our flawed logic that finding Christ caused


Found Christ? Explain his appearance to me please. This is coming from a true Christian so I do ask this question in earnestness.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I thought the preview made it look like Gladiator, one of my favourite movies. Have you seen it?


Gladiator was very good. I saw it on a saturday afternoon at the movies...and when I got out it was saturday evening!
Seriously though, good epic.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Maybe I should rephrase what I said. I would try to talk them out it of verbally, but I wouldnt physically stop them.


If someone way about to kill themselve before my eyes, would I physically try to stop them? Yes. Suicide was a very private matter for me, I didn't want anyone to know or see it until all was done. That's when it's most lethal. Announcing to the world or a friend that you're going to do it is plead for help. If that help isn't extended, then the person feels there truly is no reason to live because nobody cares.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Shouldn't it be your right to end your own life? I feel that we should be allowed to do anything as long it doesn't affect someone in a way they dont want to be affected.


Even though it seems like it would have no affect on others, the truth is it does. Suicide doubly so. How much more negative can you get than making your family and friends live with that kind of daily pain. They start to wonder why they're left alive if they couldn't even help someone in their family or their friend. You are linked to me. If you killed yourself, it would hurt me though we've never met. Imagine then what it'd do to those closer to you. There's a ripple effect that starts in the center and ripples it's way out to the far reaches of the community. Though we like to pretend we live in a "mind your own business" world, we're all linked somehow, often in ways we cannot see.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
With an open-mind admitting, I DONT KNOW what happens.


So why chance it? So many people say that killing yourself will cause bad things. Then there are the people who don't know. Who then says that killing yourself will result in something good?


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Wow, lets back up. I dont recall saying anyone whos depressed should kill themselves.


Suicide is a natural progression from depression. One can only take being down for so long until you want it over in a hurry. A person doesn't just "snap out of it" without some kind of external assistance.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Do you watch Chapelle show?


I've seen bits and pieces. I like the homeless guy and Britney Spears, that was a funny skit and the Fear Factor one. I try to keep it clean though, which often has me turning the channel. Usually at the point he says "I'm Rick James, Bi-" *click*



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Whether sinner or saint, we are all on the same path…


Im a saint and a sinner, though I do my best to prevent the latter and work hard to help others become the first if it is to their initiative.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
But then, I am only a fool, and I know nothing.


Stop that
, you've got a lot of good things to say. Perhaps the most frustrating thing for me reading the Tao Te Ching was the chapter that tells me to not bother learning, but then not listen to the author since he knows nothing anyway. We all know very little, but even that is a far cry from nothing.


[edit on 12-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Recall that Science' purpose is to "Bring understanding of causation and function to the universe". It is to explain the why-and-the-how of things. Merely because someone important wrote E=MC^2 doesn't mean that is the truth of things, only that it has been SHOWN to be how things work at this time, and nothing better has come along. That, my friend, is belief.

Science is as faith based as Christianity, and there are indeed Zealots amidst science just as there are amongst other worldly religions.


Woot! Now here is a scientific mind.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 08:27 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I assume you sleep at night and plan for the future, as such, you have faith or take it on principal the future will be here tomorrow. If even not that, I would call it hope. Science *IS* faith based, its methodology may be unique, but it none-the-less serves exactly the same purpose as Religion.


Bam! Step back y'all and think about this one.



Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Do I believe in a divine being? Yes. I can say that much. Though never for the same inane reasons as others, and I am required to give you no proof, mind you, of my belief. Regardless, I cite the law of improbabilities as evidence thereof.


Whoa, hey, hold up. You've got my interest and left me hanging. Can you elaborate on how the law of improbabilities is evidence of a divine being (Creator as previously stated)?



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
No, Create is not reliant upon time or the passage thereof.


Then you are not using it correctly and probably should come up with a new word. Creation implies that something didn't exist prior to being created. The words "didn't" and "prior" imply time.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
This means, to us within time, that everything would appear to happen at once... but really there is no means to measure since the concept of space/time doesn't exist in a static environment.


From the perspective of a static "environment", the universe exists (has, does, and will). From that perspective, the universe simply is.

From our perspective, the universe has existed for all time, and from that perspective it simply is. In neither frame of reference is the universe created.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Action and movement do not have to rely upon passage through space/time... and even less so for an omniscient being.


You're using language and concepts from spacetime. You say action and movement are not dependent on spacetime, but of course they are. You are speaking in contradictions.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
This does not, in fact, mean that it cannot be grasped, only that it is not naturally conducive to regular human thought processes.


People who 'grasp' contradictions are generally declared to be insane.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Am omniscient being has the capability to A) Create a rock that it cannot lift and B) Lift it in the same instant.


"instant"? Didn't you say god was static?


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
How is this possible? When you make the rules, you can remake them or ignore them altogether. In fact, logical fractures are exactly the point of an omniscient being, being able to violate ones own ascribed rulesets.


Can god make himself cease to exist? If so, how do you know he hasn't?



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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The Law of Improbabilities is primarily a statistical law of events transpiring. Generally speaking, there is a certain percentage of chance that any given situation may occurr or arise. Tomorrow, there may be a knock on my door, this is not improbable. However, when you have such improbable happenstances as to seem miraculous, and these occurr on a daily basis, mathematically speaking this should not happen in a random universe.

Now, sheer numbers might argue that because there are so many varying situations occuring at any given time that causation insists that even the most improbable of situations is to arise somewhere. However, This doesn't explain "Lucky" or "Unlucky" people, people who have these situations occur more frequently than anyone else. I am sure at least some of us know a "Lucky" or "Unlucky" person, unfortunate for those knowing the latter more than the former.

I suppose the more familiar term is "The Law of Probabilities", though I use Improbability because it illustrates my point better, no other reason. You see, there was a time when I watched most of my family get into a car crash right in front of me. All of them were buckled in, and they were driving an 1990 Astro van which rolled twice and ended up on its back.

It is highly improbable that all of them survived the ordeal with no broken bones, only minor scrapes, and every one of them was outside of the vehicle.

I cite this example only as a personal one, there are other encounters I have had with sheer breakdown of probabilities. Things that should not happen, numbers wise, but tend to... and frequently.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
This does not, in fact, mean that it cannot be grasped, only that it is not naturally conducive to regular human thought processes.


People who 'grasp' contradictions are generally declared to be insane.


You just called CrystalSword crazy, but oh how tactfully done. Break it down for us simple folk and just say, "yo crazy!"

S'okay CrystalSword, I don't think you're crazy.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
The Law of Improbabilities is primarily a statistical law of events transpiring. Generally speaking, there is a certain percentage of chance that any given situation may occurr or arise. Tomorrow, there may be a knock on my door, this is not improbable. However, when you have such improbable happenstances as to seem miraculous, and these occurr on a daily basis, mathematically speaking this should not happen in a random universe.

I cite this example only as a personal one, there are other encounters I have had with sheer breakdown of probabilities. Things that should not happen, numbers wise, but tend to... and frequently.


Nice shot, hit the target without even trying! You've elegantly explained something I often struggle with putting into words and you're like *taptaptap* "masterpiece!" Well done
.

Moving on then, do we live in sin?



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
You just called CrystalSword crazy, but oh how tactfully done. Break it down for us simple folk and just say, "yo crazy!"


I didn't call CrystalSword crazy, nor do I think s/he is crazy. I do not believe this individual is capable of conceptualizing an actual contradiction.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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science is a school of thought that everyone can appreciate and apply to their daily lives. religions, or the most prominent religions anyway, is also something everyone can apply to their daily lives and gain from it. most religions say the same things as far as don't steal, don't be greedy, have charity in you heart etc. the thing with science is that the un observable typically gets thrown to the wayside. Everyone pretty much believes that the earth revolves around the sun, just like everyone pretty much believes that you shouldn't kill and be mean. it's just when people start to say things like "there is a golden midget in the middle of the earth holding an invisible diamond string attached to the sun" that people begin to disagree. why not just believe that the earth revolves around the sun? I doubt that anyone here believes whole heartedly that loving your neighbor is wrong, whether or not Jesus, Allah, or Buddah said it. I'm not here to say that the jist of christianity is wrong. only here to say that saying christianity or christians in particular are the absolute power is wrong. let's stick to the subject of the thread, "the absolute power of christianity." is it's power absolute or is it just good?



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by passengername
only here to say that saying christianity or christians in particular are the absolute power is wrong. let's stick to the subject of the thread, "the absolute power of christianity." is it's power absolute or is it just good?


I think what JJ was saying in post #1 is that Christians have no power at all, and that's the beauty of it. We cannot make anyone believe anything nor would we want to, rather we are here to profess that God is the all-powerful, all-good, and all-loving one. As a "Christ"ian I'll refer back to my rabbi who said, "Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered, "No one is good - except God alone." (Luke 18:19) and "This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven..." (Matthew 6:9). Our teacher knows who has the power, that we are not the ones who are good, and when we pray, who to pray to. Because of our declaration of the good news however, we're suddenly 'forcing our beliefs on others' and are subject to attack. That's my take on it, correct me if I'm off base Jake.

"Rock, rock on!"



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 01:31 PM
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Moving on then, do we live in sin?


I'll chime in on this saint. The answer is NO. At least most don't.

The only true sin in the lack of recognition of GOD the creator. Man has placed the mantle of sin upon us.

I personally don't buy the notion that we are all "sinful". It is a concept brought in for control of the masses. Now, if one was to consider lusting in the mind for the beautiful blonde walking down the street as sinful than I am guiltier than most. However, if it was not for this natural lust placed within us by GOD than the human element of this planet would have disappeared long ago. One does realize there is a reason GOD made sex pleasurable?

We are no different than any other species on this planet in this regard.

On this line I sat and watched the Trinity Broadcasting Network this weekend. There sat 4 people of the supposed Christian faith making the ridiculous claim that Louisiana "asked for it". That when entering Louisiana it felt "different". Poppycock. It there thinking was true then GOD would create a windstorm or something dismantling their television empire. Why? Simple-it feels different than my version of Christianity.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
I'll chime in on this saint.


Sure thing madman, any responses welcomed.


Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
The answer is NO. At least most don't.


I'm gonna go with "yes" so this may prove to be an interesting discussion hopefully.


Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
The only true sin in the lack of recognition of GOD the creator. Man has placed the mantle of sin upon us.


Actually sin would be anything God does not want you to do. Is that agreeable? Simply giving God the nod is no more helpful than saying a person claiming to be a father is one because they've heard they had a kid somewhere, from my view. I don't see much of a relationship in either.


Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
I personally don't buy the notion that we are all "sinful". It is a concept brought in for control of the masses. Now, if one was to consider lusting in the mind for the beautiful blonde walking down the street as sinful than I am guiltier than most.


What if God told you not to do it if you're married? God isn't without His reasons either. A wandering eye is a violation of the intimacy with one's spouse. This hurt seems to be more prominent from the wife's perspective much moreso than the husbands, but an open discussion about it in a marriage relationship should reveal this to be the case. A wife does not want to share her husband's eye. Right or wrong, there's heavy emphasis for a woman to be physically attractive. That's why there are cheerleaders, the Sport Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, and pound for pound higher pornography sales selling to men than women (much higher). Call me wrong by majority and I'll take back my statement.

Setting up an eye-candy buffet for a husband makes the wife feel like just one of the diamonds in the jewelry store. "But honey, you're still a diamond!" doesn't cut it. From the time she only wears one diamond ring on her hand (representing her man at engagement), she needs him to be the only diamond for her, body and mind. If a man can't make that commitment, he shouldn't bother with the ring.


Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
However, if it was not for this natural lust placed within us by GOD than the human element of this planet would have disappeared long ago. One does realize there is a reason GOD made sex pleasurable?


Sure, "for this reason a man a man will leave his father and mother, and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." (Genesis 2:24)


Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
We are no different than any other species on this planet in this regard.


Ah but we are. We're given the ability to have self-discipline. This prevents us from becoming animals in this, and many other areas.


Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
On this line I sat and watched the Trinity Broadcasting Network this weekend. There sat 4 people of the supposed Christian faith making the ridiculous claim that Louisiana "asked for it". That when entering Louisiana it felt "different". Poppycock.


Agreed....and hope that tv isn't being used as a measuring stick for what Christ taught. Perhaps there's some good stuff on TV somewhere, but I haven't seen it. What right do we have to say events are God caused because of our judgement? None.


[edit on 12-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by passengername
only here to say that saying christianity or christians in particular are the absolute power is wrong. let's stick to the subject of the thread, "the absolute power of christianity." is it's power absolute or is it just good?


I think what JJ was saying in post #1 is that Christians have no power at all, and that's the beauty of it. We cannot make anyone believe anything nor would we want to, rather we are here to profess that God is the all-powerful, all-good, and all-loving one.


OK, I'll quote the original


origianl post #1

"When people are saying that Christians having the Ten Commandments in the public square or sharing their faith is forcing their beliefs upon them, they're pretty much admitting Christianity is the Truth. "


ok. so when I go erect a monument saying that Jesus was not the "only begotten son of God" and that his way was good but mine is the new better way and that from now on you must pray to whomever you pray to in My name and your children must say My special prayer in class, and all you christians get angry. (and we all know you would) then we will KNOW that my religion is the TRUTH and the one TRUE religion!..?



original post #1
"We defend people like Robert Byrd and David Duke, who spouted hate in the KKK for so many years, yet we freak out if someone spouts love in the public arena. It seems really hypocritical if we don't factor in the fact that Christianity forces you to believe there is a right and wrong, and many people like to do wrong and feel justified doing so. "


I don't exactly know who "We" is but wu-unt me homie. you think I get upset when christians try to force their way into my government and display their propaganda everywhere, you should see me when racists and seperatists and other exclusionary radicals try to tell me what to do. I'm not here to silence christians... only to tell them I don't think it's fair and "christian like" to influence our government primarily with religious beliefs held a piece of the populace while at the same time not recognizing others of us that have different beliefs or none at all. it's amazing what happens when you make a certain religion the "official" religion (see Roman Empire)


saint4god
As a "Christ"ian I'll refer back to my rabbi who said, "Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered, "No one is good - except God alone." (Luke 18:19) and "This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven..." (Matthew 6:9). Our teacher knows who has the power, that we are not the ones who are good, and when we pray, who to pray to. Because of our declaration of the good news however, we're suddenly 'forcing our beliefs on others' and are subject to attack. That's my take on it, correct me if I'm off base Jake.

"Rock, rock on!"


who was your rabbi Jesus?

"Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered, "No one is good - except God alone."

this is one of my primary arguments for christians and their profession that you must go through Jesus to know God or that Jesus IS GOD! it's not your declaration that God is good that upsets the balance, it's your declaration that Jesus is the only way that
me up! and once you start spending my tax dollars on some display or monument I'M GONNA GET PERTURBED! I am a Monotheist by christian persuasion. I believe in one God but am very bothered by the major christian caveaut that Jesus is "God in the flesh" and that Mary was a virgin and I can only know God through him, etc.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by passengername]



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 03:01 PM
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The previous quotes I'll leave to the originator, JungleJake.


Originally posted by passengername
who was your rabbi Jesus?


Ya.


Originally posted by passengername
"Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered, "No one is good - except God alone."

this is one of my primary arguments for christians and their profession that you must go through Jesus to know God or that Jesus IS GOD! it's not your declaration that God is good that upsets the balance, it's your declaration that Jesus is the only way that
me up!


Again, not my quote. Here's the originator for that one - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". (John 3:16) Need to take that one up with God.


Originally posted by passengername
and once you start spending my tax dollars on some display or monument I'M GONNA GET PRETURBED!


I can see that. I think the original idea though was to show the earliest form of law that's still in effect for the most part, not necessarily to mandate religion upon every household. Also, I think if you watched where your tax dollars go specfically, you'd be even more perturbed at the more costly ticket items.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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Dup post, sorry. Net actin' funny.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by saint4God]



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