The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by jake1997
The answer is simple.
Jesus and God are one.
If you are not sure God exists, then how can you be sure of salvation?

The disciples had doubt in god, since they had doubt in Jesus by your resoning. Since they had doubt, they did not have 100% faith, which is the threshold you set for salvation. Thus, they are frying in hell right now unless they later came to 100% faith. There's nothing in the Bible to indicate they came to 100% faith, so I think it's safe to assume they quite well roasted by now.

I can only answer this with my previous post

posted on 13-7-2005 at 22:44 Post Number: 1532458 (post id: 1554351)

No Doubts

quote: Originally posted by spamandham
quote: Originally posted by jake1997
No. The fact is..ALL christians have zero doubt about Gods existance. How can you be saved otherwise?


I'm amazed at the number of mountains not being tossed into the sea considering this revelation.

If you are a True Christian™, then you should be quite familiar with the fact that even his disciples had doubt. I guess by your standard they are doomed to the same fate as me. I can't wait to taunt them about what a great time I had in life while they wasted their lives devoted to someone who in the end abandoned them for failure to have zero doubt.

(p.s., you should only speak for yourself, not "all Christians", as many/most would probably consider your view heretical).

You just completely changed the topic.

Are we talking about the existence of God?

BTW..the apostles doubts seem to have left them when they saw the risen Jesus Christ..and or the Day of Pentecost.

Please show me where the apostles doubted Gods existence.

Please show me where the apostles doubted Gods existence, or Jesus' existence.


I will give you this verse as a starter:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


and now...you can watch doubt pushed away by the risen Lord, Jesus Christ

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


No Doubt about Gods existence tho.
There was only doubt about Jesus being alive again...and that was erased

Originally posted by jake1997
Please show me where the apostles doubted Gods existence, or Jesus' existence.

The doubt was not in the existence of Jesus. I never said that. Nor was the doubt about the existence of god. Belief in the existence of god, or the existence of Jesus will not get you saved according to Christian dogma. After all, doesn't Satan believe in the existence of god and the existence of Jesus? Doesn't he also believe that Jesus is god?

Satan is condemned not because he lacks belief, but because he rejects the authority of god (does not put his trust in god). Clearly belief of existence is a prerequisite to recogniztion of authority, but it isn't sufficient.

Here is the doubt I was referring to:
Matthew 8:26
Matthew 14:31
Matthew 16:8
Matthew 17:20
etc.

There's nothing in the passages from Mark that you presented that indicate they henceforth had 0 doubt. Even Mark 16:14, after Jesus had told them he was going to be crucified, and after having witnessed the miracles associated with Jesus death, they still had doubt.

I don't see any Biblical support for your assertion that you are unsaved unless you have 0 doubt.

Even Jesus expressed doubt in Matt. 26:39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

If Jesus had 100% faith, he would have trusted that what was going to happen was the will of the father and that the father knew best and thus would not have requested that it pass.

Anytime anyone prays for anything they are expressing doubt. If they had 100% faith, they would already know that things will work out according to god's plan, and that god's plan is all that matters. Even "thy will be done" is superfluous for someone with 100% faith unless it is simply an expression of solidarity.

is an interesting discussion. Spamandham, I like the verses you've quoted. In each one Jesus is saying to the disciples, in essence "You ain't got much faith. You need to get faith or you ain't gonna get very far." Now, here's what's interesting. The disciples were different than the apostles. Yes, they were the same people, but the disciples needed more faith, and the apostles already had the faith. What happened? What changed? Jesus' crucifixion. That forgiveness of sins. Then his resurrection and meeting "doubting Thomas". With the proof before their very eyes, they no longer had to doubt and be faithless with their walk. Now that's exactly what I'm supposed to be doing here. I'm supposed be helping people get the proof they need to have faith from that point on when they walk. They would then know God is there always helping us to endure, direct our paths, and educate.

Did the apostles doubt? There's no record nor do I know their heads and hearts, but I do know there is no reason to doubt when you've received your personal proof. That is exactly the message I was given - You do not need to doubt what you think, say and do when He is personally involved in you life. Once you accept Him as your leader, your God, He has a way of bumping you back in line when you're off-track. He's done it to me countless times. Sometimes friendly, sometimes more firm.

You're not only catching my ear recently, challenging thought and research, but also answering a lot of personal questions for me. Again, much appreciated. It's times like these I wonder who is helping who, though my hope is we're helping each other.


[edit on 15-7-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
I have NO DOUBT about the existence of GOD.

Rather than accuse you of lying, I will simply comment that you are a unique individual indeed. I've never met anyone before who did not admit to some doubt.

The line of the conversation came out of this post.

No Doubt about the existence of God.
This is likely the largest roadblock to faith.
Once one comes to the understanding that God exists, its rather foolish to be confrontational with Him when you are thinking in the proper perspective

Originally posted by jake1997

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
I have NO DOUBT about the existence of GOD.

Rather than accuse you of lying, I will simply comment that you are a unique individual indeed. I've never met anyone before who did not admit to some doubt.

The line of the conversation came out of this post.

No Doubt about the existence of God.
This is likely the largest roadblock to faith.
Once one comes to the understanding that God exists, its rather foolish to be confrontational with Him when you are thinking in the proper perspective

Agreed. This was the original line of conversation. Do you think it is typical among Christians to have 0 doubt in the existence of god? (now that we have established that is a necessary but not sufficient condition for salvation).

posted on 2-5-2005 at 08:41 AM Post Number: 1357014 (post id: 1378907)

LOL! This is another interesting thread on the evil Christian belief.

Yes, we Christians force you to believe in our God. Jake, you will be kicked out of the secret society and you will eventually commit suicide by repeatedly shooting yourself in the back of the head!

Rant, you'll be hard pressed to show me that the Founding Fathers meant anything else but for this nation to be a Christian nation. I know this to be true because I've made it a point to STUDY and read, not simply find a few quotes, taken out of context, to make my point. It would be possible to peruse my last 4 or 5 years' worth of posting here at this board and prove that I am an athiest, but I know better.

In regtard to that, Skadi, I suggest you go battle Christians in a nation that is not a Christian nation. Tehre are plenty of them, and it should be very easy to do. As far as this nation is concerened, its laws are based upon the laws of the Christian God. Might you be seeing where this is leading? Yup, you're right. If it violates the laws of the Christian God, it violates the laws of htis nation.

Thomas Crowne makes a GREAT point! In which countries (that aren't primarily and PROUDLY Christian) is Christianity NOT actively sought out and distroyed? Seems to me the Secularists (not the Atheists) and other Fundamentalists have the biggest fear of Christianity. Why? Because one seeks to make HIMSELF God, while the other simply thinks we're fatally wrong, and has the bullets to prove it.


[edit on 17-7-2005 by Toelint]

[edit on 17-7-2005 by Toelint]

toelint
lol
Glad I could be of some use as enterainment


Spam

Christians have doubts. Not about Gods existence tho.
The typical early doubts are of the 'am I really saved' variety.
The first thing satan does is come to make you doubt.
"Thats it?. I dont feel any different. How can I be saved"

The next day it turns into "That was just dumb. Im not really saved"
First doubt, then denial. Just like with Eve.
Do something wrong? More doubt. "How can God still love me. Im still screwin up?" This is when satan tries to drive a wedge between you and God.
"God dont want to hear from me now. I screwed up too bad. I suck as a christian".
Thats a lie. Its when you realize that YOU CANT do it...that God wants to hear from you. Dont believe the lie.

There are all kinds of doubts my friend. Sometimes they fly at you like they were coming from a machine gun.
It took me a long time to figure out, that all I had to do was pray.
Talk to God like I talk to anyone. Tell Him what He already knows anyway. The things that are happening.
Your faith grows.
Its amazing when everything is telling you that this aint gonna work, that this is stupid, that you shouldnt listen to what God is telling you....that is when God comes through like you wouldnt understand....unless you go through it.
That is when faith grows by leaps and bounds.

Originally posted by Toelint
Thomas Crowne makes a GREAT point!

Thomas Crowne repeatedly makes claims that America is founded as a Christian nation but never backs them up! In all the threads I have seen he merely says" Look through my previous posts because I don't have time". I even did once, but found no such proof.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy

Originally posted by Toelint
Thomas Crowne makes a GREAT point!

Thomas Crowne repeatedly makes claims that America is founded as a Christian nation but never backs them up! In all the threads I have seen he merely says" Look through my previous posts because I don't have time". I even did once, but found no such proof.

The United States was founded as a Christian nation, in only the loosest sense of the word. The majority of our founding fathers were self-professed Deists, which was a very common religious philosophy at that period in time. It's basic tenets are belief in a supreme being (God), divine creation, and a hands off policy after that point. In effect, they subscribed to a Humanist philosophy with God at it's source; they, therefore, did not recognise most "Christian" dogma, including the virgin birth, divinity, and resurrection of Jesus, intercession through prayer, biblical miracles, or the Bible as being divinely inspired. Certain individuals, at one time or another, may have evidenced some of these beliefs, but more commonly, they conformed to Deist philosophy.

Yours in Truth

Originally posted by jake1997
Christians have doubts. Not about Gods existence tho.

Again, I emplore you to speak only for yourself. You can not possibly know that anyother Christians have no doubt about the existence of god (let alone all), unless you arbitrarily make 0 doubt (in the existence of god) a requirement for your definition of "Christian".

If you truly have 0 doubt about the existence of god, you are a pretty unique individual I would think.

Originally posted by Lordling
The United States was founded as a Christian nation, in only the loosest sense of the word.

Let's see what actual founding fathers had to say about that. Hmmm. Here's what John Adams wrote in the treaty of Tripoli in 1797 (similar wording was used in a letter to Malta jointly authored by Adams and Washington)

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."

yeeees, Spam (read that as Morpheus said it to Neo in the Matrix), Adams had it right. We are not a Christian nation. We were, however, founded by Christians based on Christian ideals. Part of that involved letting people make up their own minds about religion. If you'll recall, Jesus never condemend or went all ninja on the people who called Him a liar, he let them make their own decisions, and thereby their own mistakes. That's free will for ya. So no, it wasn't founded as a Christian nation so far as I've discovered, it was just founded on Christian ideals, and those ideals were written into the Bill of Rights.

Originally posted by junglejake
yeeees, Spam (read that as Morpheus said it to Neo in the Matrix), Adams had it right. We are not a Christian nation. We were, however, founded by Christians based on Christian ideals. Part of that involved letting people make up their own minds about religion. If you'll recall, Jesus never condemend or went all ninja on the people who called Him a liar, he let them make their own decisions, and thereby their own mistakes. That's free will for ya. So no, it wasn't founded as a Christian nation so far as I've discovered, it was just founded on Christian ideals, and those ideals were written into the Bill of Rights.

The Christian religion was not the originator of those ideals (nor was the Judaic). They predate it by at least 3,000 years, and probably much more than that, if my memory of oriental history serves me correctly.

Yours in Truth

The supposed origin is irrelevant, the intentions are. The founding fathers believed they were founding this country on Christian values (as do I), so that was the intention. History that they neither knew about nor believed can't be held against them.

Originally posted by junglejake
We were, however, founded by Christians based on Christian ideals.

A good number of the founding fathers were Deists/Universalists/Unitarians. There was not a conservative Christian among the group even of those who called themselves Christians. They were secularists first. The ideals of Christianity have played a role to the extent that they overlap with Greek and Roman ideals. The US was founded on British concepts of law, which were founded on the holy Roman empire's concepts of law, which were founded on the pagan Roman empire's concepts, which were founded on the Greek, etc. Our lineage is secular, even though Christianity plays a significant role in our heritage.

That said, Christianity did play a heavy role at the state level in may states.

I found the following at WWW.airpower.maxwell,af.mil and it IS a great read!!

Document created: 21 July 03
Air University Review, July-August 1976

The Religion of George Washington
a Bicentennial report

Chaplain (Lieutenant Colonel) Edwin S. Davis

He was not Saint George--the revisionist historians have convinced us of that. Yet there is ample evidence to show that religious faith was a deeply significant force in the life of the general who became our first President.

While some may consider religion a private matter only, George Washington saw it as more. For him it was a subject of demonstrated interest and public expression. As General of the Army he showed clearly that religious faith and military command can be joined. Indeed, for him there was a vital connection between the two.

Washington recognized the need for religion in the military and demanded chaplains for his troops. Roy J. Honeywell's History of the Chaplaincy of the United States Army traces the federal chaplaincy in this country from legislation enacted by the Continental Congress on 29 July 1775 in response to Washington's request that chaplains be provided for the Continental Army.1 Then, the chaplain's corps was augmented as a result of Washington's general orders of 9 July 1776, when the Army was quartered in New York City. These orders directed that:

The Colonels or commanding officers of each regiment are directed to procure for chaplains accordingly, persons of good character and exemplary lives. To see that all inferior officers and soldiers pay them a suitable respect and attend carefully upon religions exercises. The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger. The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest rights and Liberties of his country.2

On the day these orders were issued, Washington had received from Philadelphia the resolution of the Congress declaring that "the United States of America" were "free and independent . . . and absolved from all allegiance to the British crown." So it was in the same orders which increased the chaplain's corps that Washington informed his troops of the Declaration of Independence and directed that:

The several brigades are to be drawn up this evening on their respective parades at six o'clock, when the Declaration of Congress, showing the grounds and reasons of this measure, is to be read with an audible voice. The General hopes that this important event will serve as a fresh incentive to every officer and soldier to act with fidelity and courage, as knowing that now the peace and safety of this country depends, under God, solely on the success of our arms.8

The phrase "under God," so much a part of our nation's tradition and so familiar as part of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, was used by George Washington when he learned that the United Colonies had declared themselves an independent nation.

The ninth of July--the day Washington received news of the Declaration of Independence--was significant to him for still another reason, as seen in his letter to an old comrade, Colonel Adam Stephen:

The anniversary of the 3rd and 9th of July I did not let pass without a grateful remembrance of the escape we had at the Meadows and on the banks of the Monongahela.4

So the records show that these thoughts were in the mind of Washington on the day he learned his nation had declared its independence: gratitude to Providence for having twice spared his life in battle, and the realization that now he faced even greater trials. Significantly, he noted that these events and the destiny of the new nation were "under God."

The faith in God expressed by the first great American general was that of a man who had been introduced to religion at an early age. On 3 April 1732, when George Washington was less than two months old, he was baptized in the traditional manner of the Church of England (to become known later in America as the Episcopal Church). The Washington family Bible recorded that two godfathers and one godmother stood with him.5

George Washington was reared in a religious home. His father was a vestryman in the Truro Parish Church, and his mother was staunchly religious. The young Washington's earliest known signature--written probably at the age of eight or nine-was inscribed on the title page of a book of sermons, perhaps placed in his hands by his mother.6 Because of the family's close association with the Truro Parish Church, it is more than likely that young George took catechism lessons from the Reverend Charles Green, rector of the parish.

After his marriage, George Washington, like his father before him, served for a considerable time as vestryman in Truro parish. Later he served in the same capacity in Fairfax parish. He is recorded as having served on the building committees of Falls Church and Pohick Church--the latter edifice, being built from plans which he drew,7 still stands today.

Thus, on 15 June 1775, when Colonel George Washington was elected General and Commander in Chief of the Army of the United Colonies, he had been for many years an active vestryman and respected leader in his church. However, during the turbulent days surrounding the outbreak of the Revolutionary War, there is little recorded evidence of Washington's making reference to religion other than in a letter to his wife written eight days after he became Commander in Chief in which he said, " I go trusting in that Providence which has been more bountiful to me than I deserve. . ."8

In his speech accepting the appointment of Commander in Chief of the Army, Washington made no reference to God. But soon thereafter, on 5 August 1775, the matter of prayers and church services appears in the general orders issued from Cambridge. These orders directed that "the Church be cleared tomorrow and the Revd. Mr. Doyles will perform Divine Service therein at ten o clock."9

Not only was George Washington a man of religion, he was one who respected the religion of different faith groups. His magnanimity, even toward the enemy, was manifest during the early part of the Revolutionary War when he ordered Colonel Benedict Arnold to take command of a detachment of the Continental Army and move against Catholic Quebec. The first article of the instructions reads:

You are immediately, on their march from Cambridge, to take command of the detachment of the Continental Army against Quebec and use all possible expedition as the winter season is now advancing and the success of this enterprise, under God, depends wholly upon the spirit with which it is pushed.10

And the 14th instruction reads:

As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer and soldier from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of the religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority.11

After the Colonies had won their independence, it was a matter of special pride to Washington that the American Republic guaranteed full religions liberty to all, especially to such persecuted groups as the Jews and the Quakers. In a famous letter to the Hebrew congregation at Newport, Rhode Island, in August 1790, he wrote:

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that those who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it, on all occasions, their effectual support. . . . May the Father of Mercies scatter light and not darkness on our paths, and make us all, in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.12

In similar vein he wrote to the Philadelphia Quakers:

The liberty enjoyed by the People of these States, of worshipping Almighty God agreeable to their consciences is not only among the choicest of their blessings but also of their rights. . . . I assure you very explicitly that in my opinion the conscientious scruples of all men should be treated with delicacy and tenderness.13

As Commander in Chief of the Continental Army during the fearful and uncertain days of the Revolution, Washington's firm belief in freedom of religion did not mean freedom from religion so far as his troops were concerned. In January 1777, the Army established its first permanent encampment since the siege of Boston at Morristown, New Jersey. One of the first matters Washington attended to was providing for regular Sunday worship for his men. On Saturday, 12 April 1777, he ordered that:

. . . . all the troops in Morristown except the guards, are to attend divine worship tomorrow at the second bell; the officers commanding the Corps, are to take special care to have their men clean and decent, and that they are to march in proper order to the place of worship. 14

Similarly, at Middlebrook, on 28 June 1777, Washington's orders were as follows:

. . . that all Chaplains are to perform divine services tomorrow and on every succeeding Sunday, with their respective brigades and regiments, where the situation will possibly admit of it. And the Commanding officers of corps are to see that they attend themselves with officers of all ranks setting the example. The Commander in Chief expects an exact compliance with this order, and that it be observed in the future as an invariable rule and practice. And every neglect will be considered not only as a breach of orders, but a disregard to decency, virtue and religion.15

Following the grueling campaign of 1777, when the battle-weary troops were on their march to Valley Forge, Washington issued orders for the observance of a day of thanksgiving:

Tomorrow being the day set apart by the Honorable Congress for public Thanksgiving and Praise; and duty calling us devoutly to express our grateful acknowledgment to God for the manifold blessings he has granted us, the General directs that the Army remain in its present quarters and that the Chaplains perform divine services with their several corps and brigades, and earnestly exhorts all officers and soldiers whose absence is not indispensably necessary, to amend with reverence the solemnities of the day.16

No chapter in American history is better known than that dealing with the rigorous experiences of the poorly equipped Continental Army at Valley Forge during the harsh winter of 1777-1778. And few paintings are more familiar than that of General Washington praying in the snow at Valley Forge. The incident was related by the Quaker Scotsman, Isaac Potts, at whose home Washington had stayed and who claimed to have witnessed the event. Some historians have gone to great lengths to relegate the story to the status of the cherry tree legend made famous by Parson Weems.17 For our purposes here, however, arguments over the actuality of this particular occurrence are irrelevant in light of the evidence that Washington was a man of prayer. A further example of this comes in the words written to his soldiers at Valley Forge on 2 May 1778, after the terrible winter had drawn to a close.

While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of patriot it should be our highest glory to add to the more distinguished character of Christian. The signal instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labors with complete success, demand from us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of gratitude and piety to the Supreme Author of all Good.18

On 18 April 1783, eight years to the day from the beginning of hostilities at Lexington, Washington ordered a cessation of the fighting. Along with his stipulation for the reading of the proclamation, he requested that, ". . . the chaplains with the several brigades... render thanks to Almighty God for his mercies, particularly for his over-ruling the wrath of man to his own glory and causing the rage of war to cease amongst the nations. "19

In concluding his military career with an address to the Congress upon resigning his commission on 23 December 1783, General Washington spoke in characteristic fashion by saying:

I consider it an indispensable duty to close this last solemn act of my official life, by commending the Interests of our dearest country to the protection of Almighty God, and those who have the superintendence of them to his holy keeping.20

Of course, it was not the "last solemn act" of his official life--the Presidency lay in the future. And in that high office, just as in the command he was giving up, he showed that his religious faith and his official duties could be joined.

Our first general and our first President saw this Nation as "under God." If after 200 years we were called upon to report back to him, his first question might well be: "How is that legacy faring?"

United States Air Force Academy

That's quite a work of spinmeistering. From a few references to god the author of that piece concludes he was a deeply religious Christian who thought it best to intermix church and state.

He was not anti-religion, and had some sense of spirituality, but I seriously doubt he would be considered a True Christian™ today.

In his writings, he never referred to "Jesus Christ." For some reason, Christians always presume that when people use the word "god" they are necessarily referring to the Trinity. Not so.

He attended church rarely, and did not take communion.

When trying to arrange for workmen in 1784 at Mount Vernon, Washington made clear that he would accept "Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." Washington wrote Lafayette in 1787, "Being no bigot myself, I am disposed to indulge the professors of Christianity in the church that road to heaven which to them shall seem the most direct, plainest, easiest and least liable to exception."

Even at his death, he expressed no interest in religion, did not pray, or express any hope of the afterlife.

Like all good leaders, he did what he thought best to motivate his troops, which included vague references to god that they could each interpret as their version. He certainly recognized that religion was important to others, and behaved accordingly, but that isn't the same as saying he was deeply religious himself.

In his will, Washington started off with "In the name of God amen I George Washington...". Note that he does not mention Jesus, or Christ, or Holy spirit, or YHWH or Jehovah or anything else that indicates what the name of the god is that he is referring to. Nowhere in the will are there any comments regarding religion at all other than that, even though the will is more than just a list of who gets what.

During the section of his will in which he bequeaths shares of the Potomac Company toward establishment of a university in DC (George Washington University), he has this to say:

to which the youth of fortune and talents from all parts thereof might be sent for the completion of their Education in all the branches of polite literature; in arts and Sciences, in acquiring knowledge in the principles of Politics & good Government; and (as a matter of infinite Importance in my judgment) by associating with each other, and forming friendships in Juvenile years, be enabled to free themselves in a proper degree from those local prejudices & habitual jealousies which have just been mentioned; and which, when carried to excess, are never failing sources of disquietude to the Public mind, and pregnant of mischievous consequences to this Country:

Notice that there is no mention of religion whatsoever.

If Washington was a deeply religious man who felt religion played an important role in politics, you would expect he would have made reference to god in some of his annual addresses to Congress. But he didn't.

[edit on 18-7-2005 by spamandham]

I see U.S. religious history the same way you do spamandham, but I'm not as well studied on it. Thanks for the lesson.

Originally posted by spamandham
If Washington was a deeply religious man who felt religion played an important role in politics, you would expect he would have made reference to god in some of his annual addresses to Congress. But he didn't.

Agreed. But his personal beliefs notwithstanding (meaning even if he did), the fact is as outgoing President he approved the Treaty of Tripoli, which was ratifed by Congress, signed into law by President Adams, printed in the national newspapers, and nobody even raised an eyebrow to the foundational language "[As] the government of the United States of America is not in any way founded on the Christian religion..."

Period. End game. No more discussion on that point. It's over. Unless a law has been ratified since saying the opposite (which it has not), the Dominionists claiming this nation for Christ don't have a pot to piss in.

The fact is there are two distictive historical opinions that literally debunk every claim of the Dominionists (pertaining to America's founding and legal code) in one fell swoop no matter what additional arguments they spin.

"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it." --Thomas Jefferson (on the history of the US legal foundation in common law) February 10, 1814

"[As] the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion..." begins the United States Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, as endorsed by then outgoing President George Washington, voted into US law by the Senate on June 7, 1797, and ratified by the signature of new President John Adams on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity and clarification that our legal code has no basis in same.

All the dominionists can really claim is they don't care. Jefferson was a heathen. Washington, Adams and the 1797 Senate were all liars. And they just want what they want like they always do. Subjugation of the masses with a new Dark Ages. Nothing has changed since the Roman Empire. The Roman God Jesus (aka King of the Jews) is just a tool of a new corrupting force of world conquest. Nothing more. Yes, that's "the Absolute Power of Christianity!" right there. Dominion. Control. Revision. Censorship.

No sir. I'm free. I'm an American. And I know better. Keep your bloody Roman God of conquest off me. Thank you.

[edit on 18-7-2005 by RANT]

Originally posted by RANT
The Roman God Jesus (aka King of the Jews) is just a tool of a new corrupting force of world conquest. Nothing more. Yes, that's "the Absolute Power of Christianity!" right there. Dominion. Control. Revision. Censorship.

No sir. I'm free. I'm an American. And I know better. Keep your bloody Roman God of conquest off me. Thank you.

what did Jesus ever do to you? Is there one of his messages like "love your neighbor" or "love your enemy" that offends you? I'm more interested in your history at this point.


[edit on 18-7-2005 by saint4God]