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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Let's see what actual founding fathers had to say about that. Hmmm. Here's what John Adams wrote in the treaty of Tripoli in 1797 (similar wording was used in a letter to Malta jointly authored by Adams and Washington)

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."


How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments. - Benjamin Franklin

I ... accordingly appoint Thursday, the twenty-fifth day of November next, to be observed as a day of public thanksgiving and praise throughout this Commonwealth, hereby calling upon ministers and people of every denomination to assemble on the said day and ... render to God the tribute of praise for His unmerited goodness towards us: in favoring us with so great a measure of health; in preserving us from desolating judgments; in so far smiling upon our trade, our liberty, and the works of our hands; ...[and] in continuing to us the innocent enjoyments of social life, the means of religion, the right of private judgment, and the Holy Scriptures - which are able to enlighten and make us wise to eternal salvation...
And... it is highly becoming that we present our humble and penitent supplications to the God of all grace that He would be pleased mercifully to forgive our manifold sins., and through the sanctifying influences of His Spirit, correct our heart and manners and make us a holy and happy people; that He would be pleased to preserve to us our invaluable rights and liberties, civil and religious; to prosper the administration of the government of the United
States, and of this and other States in the Union;... to smile upon our university and all seminaries of learning so that streams may issue from them to make glad the city of our God; ... to put an end to civil and religious invasions on the rights of men; and to cause the benign religion of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be known, understood, and practiced among all the inhabitants of the earth... John Hancock

You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments: rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the universe- John Adams

If men, through fear, fraud, or mistake, should in terms renounce or give up any natural right, the eternal law of reason and the grand end of society would absolutely vacate such renunciation. The right to freedom being the gift of Almighty God, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave. - Samuel Adams

The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: 'that God governs in the affairs of men.' And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?
- Benjamin Franklin

Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles. - Patrick Henry




posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
By the way, Christianity is the target of secularists in the US because it is the dominant religion that has historically overstepped the bounds of what is private and what is public, and continues to do so at every opportunity.


Some recent opportunities to 'force' Christianity upon people:

Stem Cell Research
Gay Marriage
Abortion

Cloning



And I'm not just talking about some Christians expressing their views and opinions. These people are supporting bills that affect these matters in a big way. Sometimes I wonder if Bush's desicions are affected by his faith. I can understand if their against them for legitimate reasons, but they should not let their religion cloud their judement.



Originally posted by Stormrider
Yeah, Charlie, we sure don't want people having the freedom to speak what they believe; especially on a board that epitomizes what free speech is all about. Maybe you should send a U2U to Simon.


So when a member repeatedly"speaks their mind", even when their PROVEN wrong by many people we ban them(Example: Expert999), but then if a Supermod does this its ok? Of course he has the right to speak what he believes, but knowlingly lie to other people? Come on, there two completely different things.

[edit on 20-7-2005 by Charlie Murphy]



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 06:40 PM
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Very sorry about this I thought I was editing, not quoting, no wonder it wasn't working.


[edit on 20-7-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

Mod Edit: No problem. I smited one of the extras, and turned the other one into a pillar of salt.

[edit on 20-7-2005 by RANT]



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 06:55 PM
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Oh yeah! I saw it twice opening weekend. I think I might have to see it again....


(great avatar pic. stormrider)

I have 4 reasons why everyone should go see it: Tim Burton, Johnny Depp, Danny Elfman (go Oingo Boingo go!), and Christopher Lee (see, he's more evil than a dark jedi or a wizard...HE'S A DENTIST!
). Apologies to my dentist if he's reading this, I still love ya, see you in a week. A week? I've gotta floss! *runs out, flosses and runs back*

Now what were we talking about? Oh I see it now. Charlie (Murphy, not the one in the Chocolate Factory), these 4 things you listed here are brand-spankin' new social issues. Are any of them listed in the Bible? No? Well then they are going to be contraversial and they should be. It's important to evaluate them closely, consider all angles and possibilities and discuss them....but we should do so on separate threads. No point in detonating a cluster-bomb here, we're still talking about the absloute (hey JJ, don't forget to check yer spellin'
) power of Christianity.

Wanna talk God? Wanna talk power of Christ? Yeah, let's do that.


[edit on 20-7-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 20-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Now what were we talking about? Oh I see it now. Charlie (Murphy, not the one in the Chocolate Factory), these 4 things you listed here are brand-spankin' new social issues. Are any of them listed in the Bible? No? Well then they are going to be contraversial and they should be. It's important to evaluate them closely, consider all angles and possibilities and discuss them....but we should do so on separate threads. No point in detonating a cluster-bomb here, we're still talking about the absloute (hey JJ, don't forget to check yer spellin'
) power of Christianity.

Wanna talk God? Wanna talk power of Christ? Yeah, let's do that.



Stop forcing your beliefs on us


If I remember correctly this was the first quote of this thread that JJ adressed in regards to Christianity being pushed upon non-Christians. My four examples is the exact "forcing" I thought he was talking about. These are controversial issues of course, but mostly all of them have to do with ethics and morality. I don't think it would be prejudicial to say that the main supporters against them are Chrisitians, judging by the Christians that protest these laws.

The ethics that are being suggested deals with souls, God and the playing of God. I think that this IS the reason America has the seperation of Church and State. I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect somebody else in a way they don't want to affected. I don't plan to solve these issues but I will ask, Is this not Chrisitianity being forced upon others?



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by Stormrider
How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments. - Benjamin Franklin

...


It's well known that many of the founding fathers were Deists, Unitarians, and Universalists. A Deist is not a Christian!. It really isn't so hard.



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 06:55 AM
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Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I don't plan to solve these issues but I will ask, Is this not Chrisitianity being forced upon others?


Christians are split on these issues. That's why I was suggesting separate threads. I'm sure my views of the death penalty and pre-destination are not in the majority among other Christians. The absolute power of Christianity isn't found in division, it's found in its unity with God.

Just as easily as a lot of people here say "Christianity is forcing it's beliefs on us!" I see daily where I'm being force to maintain a silence from uttering words like "God" and get strange looks because I have a Bible on my desk. How is this forcing beliefs on others? "Work is no place for God!"? Oh yeah, work talks a good game when 'respecting diversity' but if you're into God, all of the sudden you're a televangelist and need to go. If my work doesn't involve God (He who knows what is right, good and true on every decision made) then it is not a work I need to be involved with.



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 07:25 AM
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You know what bothers me the most about this entire situation? The fact that people concerned about the issue on BOTH sides overlook things in order to provide better evidence for thier views righteousness.

The constitution does not have a "Seperation of Church and State" clause. What it does have is verbage THAT FORBIDS THE GOVERNMENT TO PASS ANY LAW IN RELATION TO A RELIGION.

However, the constitution is also designed to allow us to change it.

If you want your ten commandments up, then learn about the laws and rights given to you in the constitution. Go to the voting booths. Be vocal. Be civil.

If you want them down, then learn about the laws and rights given to you in the constitution. Go to the voting booths. Be vocal. Be civil.

Hmmm......thats goofy! That is the same thing repeated!

I have a good idea. How about this. Who cares! I am conservative, yet I am in no way religious. The fact of the matter is that the majority of the people in this country are so concerned with religion, that they vote based on it entirely. I AM ATHIEST...I HATE REPUBLICANS, or I AM CHRISTIAN....DOWN WITH THE DEMOCRATS!! In the process they overlook things like the systematic destruction of our countries constitution.

Your faith or lack-there-of is going to be here tomorrow. What about your constitution?



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 09:47 AM
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I need to change my political party affiliation as it's printed here. I don't like what my polling card reads anymore because it does not accurately describe my alignment.

I just called my state's Department of Elections, they say I can write in my party. I think I'll do that.

Even though I'm serious, here's some funny ones:

American Beer Drinker's Party
Birthday Party
Cool Moose Party of Rhode Island
Democratic Nonpartisan League of North Dakota - Affiliated with Democratic Party
Feline Party
Guilty Party
Guns and Dope Party of California
Internet Party
Monster Raving Looney Party of the United States
No Political Affiliation Party of Florida
The Party Party
Planetary Engineering Party
Pushy Party
Romantic Transcendentalist Party of the United States
Thermodynamics Law Party
Utopian Anarchist Party of Maryland
Party X
Party Y

and of course the one I think takes the cake...

National Barking Spider Resurgence Party

Who what's to play politics?




posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Stormrider
How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments. - Benjamin Franklin

...


It's well known that many of the founding fathers were Deists, Unitarians, and Universalists. A Deist is not a Christian!. It really isn't so hard.


What you say may be true; however, it's fairly clear, that John Hancock, John Adams, Samuel Adams and Nathan Hale were not among their number. I can supply more quotes and samples from their writing if you still believe I am wrong.



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by Stormrider

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Stormrider
How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments. - Benjamin Franklin

...


It's well known that many of the founding fathers were Deists, Unitarians, and Universalists. A Deist is not a Christian!. It really isn't so hard.


What you say may be true; however, it's fairly clear, that John Hancock, John Adams, Samuel Adams and Nathan Hale were not among their number. I can supply more quotes and samples from their writing if you still believe I am wrong.



No, I don't need quotes, because I'm not denying that the founders included Christians, but you quoted Franklin, a known Deist, as if he were a Christian. You can not simply assume that the word 'god' as used by a given founder refered to the Christian god.



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Stormrider
How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments. - Benjamin Franklin

...


It's well known that many of the founding fathers were Deists, Unitarians, and Universalists. A Deist is not a Christian!. It really isn't so hard.


It's also apparent that whatever label you attach to their religion, these men believed in a personl, loving, caring God, who was involved in human affairs and had a place in american law and polity. You can call them Deists, or Theists, you can call them the Traveling Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants!; it doesn't change the fact that to their mind God's favor and grace were all important in the success of this nation.



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by Stormrider
It's also apparent that whatever label you attach to their religion, these men believed in a personl, loving, caring God, who was involved in human affairs and had a place in american law and polity. You can call them Deists, or Theists, you can call them the Traveling Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants!; it doesn't change the fact that to their mind God's favor and grace were all important in the success of this nation.


Some of the founding fathers were Christians, and some were not. The one's that were not can not be said to have believed in a personal, loving, caring god involved in human affairs unless you demonstrate that. Even atheists and agnostics will use expressions such as 'god willing', 'god help us', etc. simply because they are norms of society, not as expressions of faith.

But even for those that were Christian, you can not conclude from a few religious sounding statements here and there that they thought religion had a role in law. The Constitution makes clear what the consensus of these men was - no law giving preference to any religion, nor interfering with the free practice thereof. Note that freedom of religion includes the freedom to have no religion at all. Codifying into law any religious sentiment whatsoever, regardless of how vague, is an assault on the religious freedom of nonbelievers.

At the state level, it was a different story.



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 11:29 PM
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Deist belief-

God made the Clock, Wound it up, and then let the watch take care of itself.

quote-
"These men believed in a personl, loving, caring God, who was involved in human affairs and had a place in american law and polity."



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham

No, I don't need quotes, because I'm not denying that the founders included Christians, but you quoted Franklin, a known Deist, as if he were a Christian. You can not simply assume that the word 'god' as used by a given founder refered to the Christian god.


O.K., then omit Franklin's quotes; there is ample evidence between the remaining men, and more that I could add, that shows that our founding fathers believed that a personal and very interested God was a part of their world view when deciding what kind of country they were creating.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by Stormrider
O.K., then omit Franklin's quotes; there is ample evidence between the remaining men, and more that I could add, that shows that our founding fathers believed that a personal and very interested God was a part of their world view when deciding what kind of country they were creating.


Even if they did they made it very clear that America was not founded as a Christian Nation:



As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

Treaty of Tripoli

I don't think it gets any clearer than that quote.

It makes no difference what their ideals were based on, they made it very clear that they didn't want the same problems with a religion based government that Europe had. What laws were affected by their views on God?

[edit on 22-7-2005 by Charlie Murphy]



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by Stormrider
O.K., then omit Franklin's quotes; there is ample evidence between the remaining men, and more that I could add, that shows that our founding fathers believed that a personal and very interested God was a part of their world view when deciding what kind of country they were creating.


No, they didn't. Some did. But even so, they penned their concensus view into the Constitution that religion should be separate from the law. The US is defined by the Constitution to be a secular nation, and that was the intent from day 1, even by those founders who had deep religious convictions.

Those men were wiser than the current pop-Christian leaders who can't see the danger of mixing religion with law and have such little faith that they think the force of law is necessary to sustain Christianity - as if men can force it but god can not.

Take a look at Muslim theocracies and you'll understand why it's a bad idea, even if it's your own religion being promoted.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 07:14 PM
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First, you twist the intent of the FF and then give a backwards example by citing muslim theocracies.

The intent was to not let the Govt control the church and force the people to worship as was done in the UK in the 1600's

That is what you have with muslim countries.
If the muslim countries were controlled by the religion, then they would always be the same of issues instead of at odds with each other.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
First, you twist the intent of the FF and then give a backwards example by citing muslim theocracies.

The intent was to not let the Govt control the church and force the people to worship as was done in the UK in the 1600's


How about if you read it and see what it says rather than claiming I'm twisting the meaning. The meaning and original intent could not be clearer, which is why this is mostly a no-brainer in the courts. The courts also contain Christians, they are not stacked with atheists. If you have significant evidence that the original intent is different than what it plainly and clearly says, put a legal brief together and submit it to the Supreme Court. But just wishing it were so doesn't cut it.

If you study up a bit on American history, you will discover that the early Christian sects had great and warranted distrust of one another, which was the primary reason for that portion of the 1st Amendment. They had already experienced what encoding religion into law was like (some of that continued on in the states even after the Constution was penned). The intent was exactly what the Amendment says. The only expansion that has happened is a result of the 14th Amendment, which applies the rights citizens share at the national level to the states. This eliminated the last vestigas of religion intertwined with law from a Constitutional perspective.

Unlike the Bible, the words of the Constitution actually mean what they say, and do not require thousands of years of developing speculative apologetics by theologians to make it palatable.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 05:29 AM
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Unlike the Bible, the words of the Constitution actually mean what they say, and do not require thousands of years of developing speculative apologetics by theologians to make it palatable.



Proving that you are ignorant of the bible will not help this conversation along.



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