Ancient Global Civilization

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Forgive my repeated petulance , Byrd.

The official line ( I hate these definitives) on Gobekli Tepe is that we are looking at a hunter gatherer ‘culture’ at that time?

I've only cursorily read on the culture, but if I recall correctly the answer is "no, they were early village settlement."

To quote from the Wikipedia article on the culture:

The time period is characterized by tiny circular mud brick dwellings, the cultivation of crops, the hunting of wild game, and unique burial customs in which bodies were buried below the floors of dwellings.

source: en.wikipedia.org...

Regarding GT- if this was a hunter gatherer culture on the cusp of further development , why did they choose to carve the pictograms in RELIEF, a far more advanced technique requiring far more work , than simply carving it directly onto the flat face.

No idea. I'm not an expert in the area... BUT... I do know that 3-D carving was present in the area. The Wikipedia article has some examples of artifacts that are 3-D and not incised into a surface.

You know where I’m going...
It implies they had already ‘done’ , ‘learned’ ,‘got bored with’ the simpler option.
To visualise the flat stone face into 3D ‘renderings’ in relief is the Second step , not the first.

They were doing 3-D plaster and other.

Do you feel the stone work at GT is the ‘prototype’ for these later cultures that took it to the next level ?

Too early and no real link between the cultures. Besides, it's hardly a stretch to invent such things. now... if it had been (say) creating gryphons (real example) between neighboring cultures (like Egypt and Mesopotamia) then we could say that one culture borrowed from the other (that was a real example. Egypt "invented" gryphons first and other local civilizations borrowed the idea.)

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened

I assumed you understood when I said 'die off' that I was referring to the society to which the builders of Göbeklitepe belonged to, not the literal collection of people that laid the stones and carved them.

Well, yes, and it's the same thing. The culture (cultures, because there are two) didn't so much die as evolve into a more sophisticated culture and eventually into a civilization -- Pre Pottery Neolithic A and B within the Natufian culture. They didn't just suddenly vanish.

Not to overly pedantic, they are not the same; there is a distinction to be made between the builders/architects of a monument/relic and the society they belong to. Let's take the Statue of Liberty for instance. Wikipedia tells us it was opened on October 28, 1886 and that its construction is of a neoclassical style.

The planners and builders of the SoL have all been deceased since very early in the last century. That is, they have physically "died off". The society, culture, whatever you want to label it, continues to this day. The customs, codes, practices, political system to which the builders belonged have not "died off". Until there ceases to be a sovereign nation called the United States, with some semblance of the same cultural ideas as ours, then our society has not "died off".

Give it a couple thousand years, for God's sake.

You're complaining that a 10,000 year old culture didn't stay the same?

Harte

Besides, it's hardly a stretch to invent such things.

Sorry Byrd, but it’s not ‘hardly a stretch’ to both visualise 3D work and implement the technique .
It shows a development of the masons art, it shows you would have needed to sharpen/replace your tool more often , have consistent tooling , have tooling that is resistant enough for the required job.
Please don’t ‘oversimplify’ this work , there’s development over time to get to this point at GT.

They were doing 3-D plaster and other.

Which 3D plasterwork was done at this time? 10,000 yrs ago? where is it?

Understand your Gryphon link/connection entirely, and yet we see those ‘handbags’ again that appear in many other sites....


a reply to: Byrd

Give it a couple thousand years, for God's sake. You're complaining that a 10,000 year old culture didn't stay the same?

Ah, and here he is.... back with his customary rudeness to others.

Ha ha, this statement from a guy who doesn’t ‘believe ‘ AE tooling developed in 3,000 years.

In case you hadn’t noticed in your conspicuous absence, people respond to your points politely before you disappear at convenient times in the discussion, only to return like some 1950’s schoolteacher cracking heads as you march around the classroom.

Before anyone answers you again , I think we could all discuss your ‘belief system’ regarding the Inca appropriation of megalithic ruins, seeing as you refused to respond to the evidence presented to you by ‘fromtheskydown’ in
THE TRAVELS OF PEDRO DE CIEZA DE LEON. A.D. 1532-50 . First hand account from a man who MET the Inca.
You think you can simply flit in and out of the debate hoping others will forget
A) your rudeness
B) your ridicule of others beliefs even though you have your own ‘beliefs’
C) your convenient silences all the while pressuring others for answers.

What I suggest is that you shut yer cakehole for a bit until you’ve gone back in the thread and answered/respected the time others put in to answer you .

You’re not the Police here, just a pseudo-Academic, so button it unless you can be civil and respectful and use the forum as others do .
Why are YOU never reported, eh? I think there’s enough evidence on this website of your consistent rudeness and disrespect.


a reply to: Harte

originally posted by: bluesfreak

Besides, it's hardly a stretch to invent such things.

Sorry Byrd, but it’s not ‘hardly a stretch’ to both visualise 3D work and implement the technique .
It shows a development of the masons art, it shows you would have needed to sharpen/replace your tool more often , have consistent tooling , have tooling that is resistant enough for the required job.

I confess I have no idea what you're referring to.

There's no masonry at Gobekli Tepe. That's done in limestone, a very soft rock. I've carved it myself back in the day with a file and knife... you can pound and carve it with limestone itself if you're patient. If you meant at the village site, they were making masks and other 3-D art so they certainly knew how to visualize and implement 3D art. Humans have been doing that for over 30,000 years as "Lowemensch" shows.

Which 3D plasterwork was done at this time? 10,000 yrs ago? where is it?

Did you click on the link? There were a number of examples, including plastering faces for death masks.

Understand your Gryphon link/connection entirely, and yet we see those ‘handbags’ again that appear in many other sites....

Baskets, containers, and pouches with handles are hardly unique discoveries. You can see pouches (made from cactus and we know this because there are some surviving examples) on the White Shaman panel here in Texas.

It's like saying that skirts or shirts are a sign of the interconnectedness of a global civilization.

I confess I have no idea what you're referring to. There's no masonry at Gobekli Tepe. That's done in limestone, a very soft rock. I've carved it myself back in the day with a file and knife...

I was referring to the relief carving.
And you carved with steel, it seems, which would “p*ss through” (as we say in my trade) Limestone.
Steel is very , very hard. Indeed.

Ah the masks! , my apologies.

Baskets, containers, and pouches with handles are hardly unique discoveries. You can see pouches (made from cactus and we know this because there are some surviving examples) on the White Shaman panel here in Texas. It's like saying that skirts or shirts are a sign of the interconnectedness of a global civilization.

Well , shirts and skirts ARE a sign of global civilisation interconnectedness : think how many cultures now wear the ‘western look’ skirts and shirts, trousers these days . Due to travel and idea transfer . Similarly , we are aware of other cultures clothing .
Trouble is Byrd, in using your Gryphon analogy, I don’t have to tell you that this ‘Handbag of the Gods’ as they are known(!) is also present in Mesopotamia , Egypt, South America , and more.

I don’t buy it that they were simply celebrating having invented bags, and taking time to show off said bags by immortalising them in stone?!?!
There’s a cultural/spiritual significance about them, not “we’ve got bags here too” I’m afraid.
This is the kind of data that suggests culture transfer/acknowledgement transfer, or continuation of acknowledgement of the symbolism by other cultures .
Please Byrd. These carvings don’t say “We invented bags too” come on.....

a reply to: Byrd

a reply to: bluesfreak

The three "handbags" portrayed on Pillar 43 at Gobekli Tepe do bear some resemblance to the bucket and cone found in Assyrian palace reliefs (although the Gobekli Tepe examples are more crudely depicted). But containers with handles are a staple of human societies - like skirts and shirts, as Byrd says above.

The three "handbags" portrayed on Pillar 43 at Gobekli Tepe do bear some resemblance to the bucket and cone found in Assyrian palace reliefs (although the Gobekli Tepe examples are more crudely depicted). But containers with handles are a staple of human societies - like skirts and shirts, as Byrd says above.

Hi Hooke,
So you’re saying these are celebrations of having invented ,and use of ‘bags’ ?!
This image is found from GT through Mesopotamia , Egypt, South America and more.
I’m not denying cultures had ‘bags’ of different types, either, I just find it difficult to imagine a worldwide ‘celebration’ of ‘bags’ that’s all!

The GT carvings ARE cruder, agreed, but only due to the development of that culture at the time.
Ancient Egyptian carving , for example , shows far more development and refinement, I would say mastery, of skills/tooling in relief carving, AND in far harder stone, showing linear development of the carvers craft over time .

I disagree with the clothing analogy in its entirety as our modern fashions and trends and cultural appropriations of clothing only exist due to inter-connectivity , travel, distribution of images.

These are just my observations of course, I’m not claiming a unified pre-history theory , or that I know everything etc, or any kind of ‘solution’ as there isn’t one . Yet.
I remain open minded and inquisitive .

a reply to: Hooke

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Trouble is Byrd, in using your Gryphon analogy, I don’t have to tell you that this ‘Handbag of the Gods’ as they are known(!) is also present in Mesopotamia , Egypt, South America , and more.

I'm reasonably familiar with Egypt and I don't recall any of them there. Mesopotamia... well, that's where Gobekli Tepe is. And can you give me a written (no video, please) link that discusses where they're found in South America? I see a few in context with Central America but they're from a fairly late time period (1000 AD).

I don’t buy it that they were simply celebrating having invented bags, and taking time to show off said bags by immortalising them in stone?!?!
There’s a cultural/spiritual significance about them, not “we’ve got bags here too” I’m afraid.
This is the kind of data that suggests culture transfer/acknowledgement transfer, or continuation of acknowledgement of the symbolism by other cultures .

That only works if they're near each other (as I mentioned in the gryphon example) and if they acquire the image at the same time (gryphon example.) Saying that an object was influenced by a tiny cultural group that was 5,000 miles away and 8,000 years prior is not very logical. An argument MIGHT be made for Mesopotamia since it was part of Mesopotamia... the link would be shown if these "handbags" show up in art between the time of Gobekli Tepe and whatever Assyrian art you're talking about. Stronger argument would be if actual artifacts of these handbags show up. Strongest still would be written evidence (written below the image, as they usually did) explaining what the god is carrying and what it's for.

originally posted by: bluesfreak

Give it a couple thousand years, for God's sake. You're complaining that a 10,000 year old culture didn't stay the same?

Ah, and here he is.... back with his customary rudeness to others.

Ha ha, this statement from a guy who doesn’t ‘believe ‘ AE tooling developed in 3,000 years.

In case you hadn’t noticed in your conspicuous absence, people respond to your points politely before you disappear at convenient times in the discussion, only to return like some 1950’s schoolteacher cracking heads as you march around the classroom.

Before anyone answers you again , I think we could all discuss your ‘belief system’ regarding the Inca appropriation of megalithic ruins, seeing as you refused to respond to the evidence presented to you by ‘fromtheskydown’ in
THE TRAVELS OF PEDRO DE CIEZA DE LEON. A.D. 1532-50 . First hand account from a man who MET the Inca.
You think you can simply flit in and out of the debate hoping others will forget
A) your rudeness
B) your ridicule of others beliefs even though you have your own ‘beliefs’
C) your convenient silences all the while pressuring others for answers.

What I suggest is that you shut yer cakehole for a bit until you’ve gone back in the thread and answered/respected the time others put in to answer you .

You’re not the Police here, just a pseudo-Academic, so button it unless you can be civil and respectful and use the forum as others do .
Why are YOU never reported, eh? I think there’s enough evidence on this website of your consistent rudeness and disrespect.


a reply to: Harte

If you've ever had anything of note to say, you haven't posted it here.
It would appear that you are desperate to argue against specific things that nobody will provide for you, so you invent them yourself and attribute them to other posters. Otherwise, you got nothing.
Nothing.

So, please provide us with examples of specific cultures that never changed over a 10,000 year period.
Or, you could stop the ignorance.


Harte

If you've ever had anything of note to say, you haven't posted it here. It would appear that you are desperate to argue against specific things that nobody will provide for you, so you invent them yourself and attribute them to other posters. Otherwise, you got nothing. Nothing. So, please provide us with examples of specific cultures that never changed over a 10,000 year period. Or, you could stop the ignorance.

Great tactic as usual . Try answering questions posed to you first . Don’t attribute other people’s assumptions on these cultures to me.
I’m just joining in the thread, you should try it sometime.
Plenty of stuff in this thread you haven’t responded to, so no need to respond to your baiting nonsense.
I’m not that bothered in ‘deciding ‘ about GT, nobody knows what it’s for yet, even you , believe it or not .

I think if you look back on the thread you’ll find I’ve been quite reasonable in what’s been presented.

You’re the guy who in a previous thread debate with me wouldn’t consider that tooling/ methods of fabrication could change in 3,000 years in AE.

So , button it , join in the debate or just carry on being a rude pr*ck, I care not which.
And most of the time , by just recanting standard textbook answers to everything that don’t take into account recent research, you got nothing either.
And you got nothing compared to REAL academics you pretender .

What you really need to do Harte , is stop being an information fascist regarding others questions.
Who on here cares that you don’t like people’s questions ? Not me. Bugger off if you don’t like it, this isn’t your job.
a reply to: Harte

I’m not denying cultures had ‘bags’ of different types, either, I just find it difficult to imagine a worldwide ‘celebration’ of ‘bags’ that’s all!

Not like todays world wide culture of celebrating Mobile Phones...People back then did travel,although a lot slower than today..

Hi Byrd,
Well, it is interesting, and you seem to be right, I have READ extensively about these handbags , and probably over 90% of articles put ‘ancient Egypt ‘ on the list with these bags, yet I can’t find any actual pictures of AE carvings with the bags in. (!)
The ANKH is carried in a similar way , but is blatantly not a ‘bag’!
I have read a tenuous link where a writer links these ‘bags’ to a ‘seh’ -a pre dynastic ‘portable shrine’ and then phonetically to ‘sah ‘ in the Budge book meaning “shrine or sanctuary in which a god was housed’” but I’m no expert .
Have also read a link that these bags relate to a ‘home of the gods’ hieroglyph , a ‘hetep’ basket symbol?? But can’t find that either, and can’t really find an AE definitive of where the ‘gods’ home was ?!
Only find ‘hetep’ as being related to Hotep and that’s not ‘bags’.

There’s a link here with pics of these bags:
Handbag Pictures Collection

Not sure about all the info in the article, but it contains a fair collection of pictures , showing this image in Ecuador, through to Mesopotamia .
Have also had a look at many actual standalone objects that are carved as these ‘bags’ with suggestions they are ‘weights’ - not sure what for though .

Ps- I’m not really one for getting info from thieving ‘bright insight’ YouTube vids, prefer to read articles and papers myself.
a reply to: Byrd

... but I’m no expert on ancient world cultures, I only joined the thread as Harte and his little igor Hanslune were spouting their usual ignorant generalisations about Atlantis, and I’ve read A LOT about the mechanisms at work under the Azores , and disagree with them. That’s what this forum is for .

The last time I got involved in a thread to the same degree was (again) Harte’s sweeping ignorant generalisations on AE tooling capabilities.
I am a machinist that makes tools, works on lathes and milling machines, and next time he talks crap about my area of expertise , I’ll be back again .

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Hi Byrd,
Well, it is interesting, and you seem to be right, I have READ extensively about these handbags , and probably over 90% of articles put ‘ancient Egypt ‘ on the list with these bags, yet I can’t find any actual pictures of AE carvings with the bags in. (!)
The ANKH is carried in a similar way , but is blatantly not a ‘bag’!
I have read a tenuous link where a writer links these ‘bags’ to a ‘seh’ -a pre dynastic ‘portable shrine’ and then phonetically to ‘sah ‘ in the Budge book meaning “shrine or sanctuary in which a god was housed’” but I’m no expert .
Have also read a link that these bags relate to a ‘home of the gods’ hieroglyph , a ‘hetep’ basket symbol?? But can’t find that either, and can’t really find an AE definitive of where the ‘gods’ home was ?!
Only find ‘hetep’ as being related to Hotep and that’s not ‘bags’.

The shrines are well-known and we even have a lot of examples of them. In general, they're blocks of stone or wood and are not very portable. They are fitted with doors and a statue of the deity is hidden inside it. Deities carry the ankh and one of several staffs, indicating that they give life (ankh) and that they have power (staves)

"hetep" is not the name for "basket".

There’s a link here with pics of these bags:
Handbag Pictures Collection

Not sure about all the info in the article, but it contains a fair collection of pictures , showing this image in Ecuador, through to Mesopotamia .
Have also had a look at many actual standalone objects that are carved as these ‘bags’ with suggestions they are ‘weights’ - not sure what for though .

They could be a lot of things, including censers for incense. The writing below the pictures will usually say what they are. If someone's showing you a picture and not commenting on the writing on the picture (translating hieroglyphs or cuneiform) then it's a good bet they might not know what they're talking about and that you'd best take a look at something that's got the translation.

I do know that the page you linked has several misidentifications (the "ecuador" picture isn't from Ecuador. It's Sumeria.) They link an Olmec statue of Quetzalcoatl (or what they say is an Olmec statue) ... but the statue is from after 1000 BC (7-8000 years after Gobekli Tepe) and there's no continual thread of these objects in the culture (in other words, we don't see cultures that early in Central America making monuments that have "handbags" and there's no record of them having any great significance as the Olmec traditions become combined with other traditions as the people were absorbed in other cultures.

We do have records of the Sumerian ones, however. Some have been found in archaeological context and according to papers that I find, they're "weights"... they're solid stone and nothing could have been carried in them

The source that everyone cites on this is a rather exhaustive catalog by Winkelmann (Winkelmann, S. "Gedanken zur Herkunft und Verbreitung iranischer und mittelasiatischer'Gewichte'." Mitteilungen der Deutschen Orient-Gesellschaft zu Berlin 129 (1997): 187-224.) ... but your German has to be a lot better than mine to read it (I can make out the title, but after that it's heavy slogging with a dictionary.) He does compare them to other objects found in archaeological contexts and in a certain time frame.

Which brings the interesting question: what if the things at Gobekli Tepe are NOT containers... what if they're representations of caves, for instance, or ovens (and (totally made up by me, I assure you) link a legend of the great sky gods "baking" clay into the shapes of all living things))?

Ps- I’m not really one for getting info from thieving ‘bright insight’ YouTube vids, prefer to read articles and papers myself.

Agreed. It's very difficult to stop and fact check a video.

Thanks Byrd, interesting stuff indeed! I’ll keep reading......! a reply to: Byrd

Ahhhh.
THE TRAVELS OF PEDRO DE CIEZA DE LEON. A.D. 1532-50
Such a great and interesting read, wouldn’t you agree, Harte?
Nothing like verbatim descriptions from eye witnesses and people who met the Inca first hand .
Fascinating.
And so intrinsic to this thread , wouldn’t you agree, Harte?

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened
As I was reading up on Göbeklitepe, two questions sprang to mind:

- there is speculation that parts of the symbology in Göbeklitepe refer to a cataclysmic event, a comet or comet swarm, that devastated the human populations at that time.

That's been disproven.

Is it possible there might be other explanations for a die off for the builders of Göbeklitepe?

They didn't die off. They're dead because they lived 11,000 years ago and nobody lives that long.

- the other interesting thing I read was that several thousand years after it was built, archeologists believed that Göbeklitepe was buried, rocks and earth and other detritus were believed to have been poured on top of the temple by someone, neolithic man possibly unrelated to the temple builders. What do we make of this? Just housekeeping, accidental, or was this an attempt to deliberately conceal the temple?

The scientific papers may be inaccessible but you could read the blog of the dig....
Blog of the dig of Gobekli Tepe

I assumed you understood when I said 'die off' that I was referring to the society to which the builders of Göbeklitepe belonged to, not the literal collection of people that laid the stones and carved them.

Well, yes, and it's the same thing. The culture (cultures, because there are two) didn't so much die as evolve into a more sophisticated culture and eventually into a civilization -- Pre Pottery Neolithic A and B within the Natufian culture. They didn't just suddenly vanish.

If the new culture were more sophisticated, then why did the old one build more impressive stuff?

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: bluesfreak

So a science writer (Shermer) is convinced by a writer (Hancock) about a Younger Dryas impact event. I would like to see some actual paleontologists and archaeologists weigh in

Shirmer’s decision on this is based on the science of the impact proxies, where they were found , and under what circumstances.

I don't doubt that. What I doubt is the depths of his knowledge.

Forgive me, as I don’t intend to be rude by any means, but what could an archaeologist add to these results apart from confirming the layers in which they were found?

Knowledge of what the signs are for civilizations (and cultures) for one thing. Information about local existing cultures in the area, cultures previously in the area (because I don't believe there were civilizations (i.e. cities with farms and trades and shops and long-distance trade) in the area.)

Why do you always insist that "farms" must be part of an advanced culture?

Basically every documentary I ever watch, or internet article I ever read, that is discussing findings from the point where people were transitioning from gathering/herding to agriculture, uninimously states the religions and institutions were concerned with convincing the people to "accept a more difficult way of life".

Farming was a step down. Not up.

The Natufian people who merely gathered, but didn't plant, grains, maintained their tools a lot better than their own later descendants who were both planting, and harvesting. It was mind dulling work, and their tools looked like dung after they were finished with them.

Problems with overpopulation came about after that, because people started having large families so the children would be usable as laborers. Which.... inevitably lead to having too many families and not enough farms, and then then they would have to figure out who to kill or starve.

Society become stratified. Cooperation becomes more of a "sword pointed at your head" sort of thing, instead of a "let's all work together" kind of thing.

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
Mathematicians have calculated that to make the 3 Giza pyramids in the lifetimes of the Pharaohs they were supposedly made as tombs for would mean

1 block every 2 minutes for 80 years.

Did not happen.

The Pyramids were already there.

I think it's more likely that the core structures were already there, perhaps towers that looked more like step pyramids, but the Egyptians decided to convert them into true pyramids.

If you look at the pyramid of Meidum you can see what I'm talking about. The core structure is some kind of multiple stage fortress or tower. But then pyramid walls were built over it.

This pyramid is usually cited as being the earliest example of the type of architecture that was later used on the Great Pyramid.

The builders were idiots, and didn't even dig down to bedrock before they added the pyramid walls, which caused them to collapse in antiquity. But the core structure was excellently constructed, and survived this collapse, and most of it still stands today.

There is simply no plausible scenario wherein the same people who built that impressive core could possibly have then gone on to build such a sloppy outer stonework. It would be an insult to their pharoah, wouldn't it?

There is this huge assumption in Egyptology that the pharoahs thought their own ancestors were duffuses or something, and didn't want anything to do with their own ancestors.

Otherwise, it would be quite natural for a pharoah to choose a site for his tomb which had been important in previous generations, perhaps as an area of worship or something.

So then he could connect himself to his ancestors in death? But egyptologists insist that oh no! He just chose the building site at random!!! Just got out a map and threw a dart at it!

Right?

Amazonian Farming 10,000 years ago
BBC News Amazonian Farming 10,000 years ago