Ancient Global Civilization

The first known pyramid made by man was made because the Giza pyramids already existed as templates.

Each Pharaoh that had one built had their names associated with each (less impressive) new one made. When Khufu became Pharaoh he - of the 3 inch statue - decided not to build a new pyramid but instead claimed the existing Great Pyramid as his own. His son Khafre claimed the pyramid next to it and his grandson Menkaure claimed the last one.

After that the next Pharaohs had to go back to building their own, less impressive pyramids.

If you think I am whacked now, wait until you try this next one on for size:

Not only were the Giza Pyramid locations made as representative of the Belt of Osiris, in the constellation we today call Orion, but I will bet you a pound of spirit right now that THE SIZE OF THE PYRAMIDS ARE BASED ON THE SIZE OF THE STARS THAT MAKE UP THE BELT.

Meaning the size of the Great Pyramid corresponds to the size of the star Alnitak. Khafre’s pyramid corresponds to the size of the star Alnilam. And the Menkaure pyramid corresponds to the size of the star Mintaka.

And if you are still not convinced I am whacked I will double the bet by stating this:

The 3 so called Queens Pyramids next to the Menkaure Pyramid are actually representative of 3 planets that orbit Mintaka.

And the 3 so called Queens Pyramids next to the Great Pyramid are actually representative of 3 planets that orbit Alnitak.

a reply to: spiritualarchitect

spiritualarchitect: Not only were the Giza Pyramid locations made as representative of the Belt of Osiris...

SC: Indeed. Tho Belt of ORION. There is no doubt at all in my mind that this is the case.

spiritualarchitect: The 3 so called Queens Pyramids next to the Menkaure Pyramid are actually representative of 3 planets that orbit Mintaka.

And the 3 so called Queens Pyramids next to the Great Pyramid are actually representative of 3 planets that orbit Alnitak.

SC: I take a different view. It's my opinion that the 2 sets of so-called 'Queen's Pyramids' are also representative of the Belt Stars but at key moments (i.e. their 'solstice' points or 'culmination' points) in their precessional cycle. See here:



SC: These two small pyramid triads work together to create a 'precession timeline' of 25,920 years (i.e. 12,960 years with the Belt stars moving towards maximum culmination and another 12,960 as the Belt stars return to minimum culmination). It's a bit like the sun moving between its maximum height in the sky (summer solstice) and then moving back to its minimum height in the sky (winter solstice). But our 'sun clock' is only good for marking dates in 1 calendar year. If you want to mark a date thousands of years into the past and/or the future, then you need to use a 'star-clock'. And that is what, imo, we have presented to us here at Giza--a star-clock indicating a future date.

If we know that minimum culmination occurred ca.10,460 BCE and maximum culmination will occur in ca.2,500 AD, then by placing a marker on the precession timeline (the theoretical (Lehner line) that connects the two sets of culmination markers), we can mark a specific date on this theoretic 'Lehner line'. And the theoretical line has been 'marked' and a future date has been given.

SC

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: kloejen

The Earth was hit by a fragmented comet around 13,000 years ago at the end of the Pleistocene Era and scientists are now starting to agree.

A new research paper has been published in Scientific Reports regarding an ancient civilisation in what is modern-day Syria that was wiped out by the cataclysm, as academics finally come round to the idea that yes this event did happen.

Even the sceptic Michael Shermer, who famously debated Graham Hancock on the Joe Rogan podcast has tweeted Graham saying:

“Ok Graham, I shall adjust my priors in light of more research like this, and modify my credence about your theory.”

Full Article

So a science writer (Shermer) is convinced by a writer (Hancock) about a Younger Dryas impact event. I would like to see some actual paleontologists and archaeologists weigh in.

Linked source is an open source journal.
Hancock's proposal of an ancient civilization being wiped out remains completely unsupported.
The headline from one of the other sources:

Scientists Agree: Younger Dryas Impact Event Wiped Out Ancient Civilization

is obviously wrong. That is, even if this was an impact at Abu Hureyra, the people living there in that era were hunter-gatherers and certainly not a "Civilization."
We've seen this type of mistake made before by journalists, but in this case I believe it is purposely misstated and the writer knows full well he's misleading readers. I say this because of Graham Hancock being associated with the story.
Lastly, from another of the linked sources - legitimate source (Nature):

...we infer that Abu Hureyra involved the airburst of a small comet or asteroid, accompanied by likely surface impacts by small fragments of the aerial detonation.

My emphasis

This shows it could have been an isolated event. Still no support for Firestone's theory, though it does lend credence to the idea. But, as I've shown, other evidence takes credence away from Firestone's hypothesis.

So, no change.

Harte

still waiting for your response regarding

THE TRAVELS OF PEDRO DE CIEZA DE LEON. A.D. 1532-50

Harte doing his usual trick of dodging out of points raised by others that might make him look a bit stupid .
a reply to: Harte

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
The first known pyramid made by man was made because the Giza pyramids already existed as templates.

So.... the grandfather (Djoser) and father of Khufu (Sneferu, who built 3 true pyramids) managed to build pyramids after they were dead?

Interesting.

Well I’m still shocked that ALL the foundational principles we believe archaeologists about regarding the construction of the GP are based on a ‘tale’ from an Ancient Greek ‘writer’.
No actual facts .

Still would like to know if you ascribe to the mathematics implied regarding the 25 yr construction ‘truth’ , although I don’t wish to derail the thread towards AE alone.
The blocks per minute calculations for the timeframe I now know academics ‘believe’ it took to build the GP are simply outrageous and unworkable it now seems ridiculous to me that academia could think this type of thing was workable back then .

Academia ‘believes’ the 25 year ‘tale’ and ‘believes’ the ensuing calculations that come with it.
Are you not embarrassed by this ‘belief’ that has no basis in real ‘fact’?
Because there are no AE records on construction timeframe , you’re happy to ‘go with‘ Herodotus .
I want to laugh, but I can’t .
...and the blatant hypocrisy in this thread regarding ‘Atlantis’ ,’belief’, ‘allegory’ ‘stories’ ‘evidence’ ‘data’ is now laid bare .

I am also shocked at how academia ‘picks and chooses’ which Ancient Greek stories are credible, and which are for the ridicule bin.
ESPECIALLY regarding data from the Azores plateau.

I’m having a hard time with academic credibility here.
a reply to: Byrd

As I was reading up on Göbeklitepe, two questions sprang to mind:

- there is speculation that parts of the symbology in Göbeklitepe refer to a cataclysmic event, a comet or comet swarm, that devastated the human populations at that time. From what I have learned, (could be wrong) there doesn't seem to be definitive proof yet found of an impact crater, sediment layers containing dust/rock with signature of an impact event, or an otherwise geological "smoking gun" to corroborate the interpretations of the symbols at the temple. I had read that using computer modeling of the solar system 12k years ago, they do see a scenario where comets could be positioned to strike earth, but again, they haven't found evidence anywhere on Earth for a huge comet strike during that time. Am I out of date with my info? Have they found any likely culprits for where/what actually collided with Earth? Is it possible there might be other explanations for a die off for the builders of Göbeklitepe?

- the other interesting thing I read was that several thousand years after it was built, archeologists believed that Göbeklitepe was buried, rocks and earth and other detritus were believed to have been poured on top of the temple by someone, neolithic man possibly unrelated to the temple builders. What do we make of this? Just housekeeping, accidental, or was this an attempt to deliberately conceal the temple?

Mate, start reading this thread from the beginning. You’ll get the drift .. a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened
As I was reading up on Göbeklitepe, two questions sprang to mind:

- there is speculation that parts of the symbology in Göbeklitepe refer to a cataclysmic event, a comet or comet swarm, that devastated the human populations at that time.

That's been disproven.

Is it possible there might be other explanations for a die off for the builders of Göbeklitepe?

They didn't die off. They're dead because they lived 11,000 years ago and nobody lives that long.

- the other interesting thing I read was that several thousand years after it was built, archeologists believed that Göbeklitepe was buried, rocks and earth and other detritus were believed to have been poured on top of the temple by someone, neolithic man possibly unrelated to the temple builders. What do we make of this? Just housekeeping, accidental, or was this an attempt to deliberately conceal the temple?

The scientific papers may be inaccessible but you could read the blog of the dig....
Blog of the dig of Gobekli Tepe

a reply to: Byrd

They didn't die off. They're dead because they lived 11,000 years ago and nobody lives that long.

Still the most hypocritical thread on the entire site though now, regarding ‘evidence’ and ‘credulity’ .
With everything that’s been presented hitherto,
“Deny Ignorance “ never looked so shallow .

Let’s ridicule one Ancient Greek story that we believe is too fantastical to be true,
But believe a perhaps more fantasy laden Greek story regarding the GP that has EVEN LESS evidence going for it than Atlantis !

Now that’s worth a giggling emoji in my book.
a reply to: Spider879

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened
As I was reading up on Göbeklitepe, two questions sprang to mind:

- there is speculation that parts of the symbology in Göbeklitepe refer to a cataclysmic event, a comet or comet swarm, that devastated the human populations at that time.

That's been disproven.

Is it possible there might be other explanations for a die off for the builders of Göbeklitepe?

They didn't die off. They're dead because they lived 11,000 years ago and nobody lives that long.

- the other interesting thing I read was that several thousand years after it was built, archeologists believed that Göbeklitepe was buried, rocks and earth and other detritus were believed to have been poured on top of the temple by someone, neolithic man possibly unrelated to the temple builders. What do we make of this? Just housekeeping, accidental, or was this an attempt to deliberately conceal the temple?

The scientific papers may be inaccessible but you could read the blog of the dig....
Blog of the dig of Gobekli Tepe

I assumed you understood when I said 'die off' that I was referring to the society to which the builders of Göbeklitepe belonged to, not the literal collection of people that laid the stones and carved them.

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened
As I was reading up on Göbeklitepe, two questions sprang to mind:

- there is speculation that parts of the symbology in Göbeklitepe refer to a cataclysmic event, a comet or comet swarm, that devastated the human populations at that time.

That's been disproven.

Is it possible there might be other explanations for a die off for the builders of Göbeklitepe?

They didn't die off. They're dead because they lived 11,000 years ago and nobody lives that long.

- the other interesting thing I read was that several thousand years after it was built, archeologists believed that Göbeklitepe was buried, rocks and earth and other detritus were believed to have been poured on top of the temple by someone, neolithic man possibly unrelated to the temple builders. What do we make of this? Just housekeeping, accidental, or was this an attempt to deliberately conceal the temple?

The scientific papers may be inaccessible but you could read the blog of the dig....
Blog of the dig of Gobekli Tepe

I assumed you understood when I said 'die off' that I was referring to the society to which the builders of Göbeklitepe belonged to, not the literal collection of people that laid the stones and carved them.

Well, yes, and it's the same thing. The culture (cultures, because there are two) didn't so much die as evolve into a more sophisticated culture and eventually into a civilization -- Pre Pottery Neolithic A and B within the Natufian culture. They didn't just suddenly vanish.

Well I’m still shocked that ALL the foundational principles we believe archaeologists about regarding the construction of the GP are based on a ‘tale’ from an Ancient Greek ‘writer’. No actual facts . Still would like to know if you ascribe to the mathematics implied regarding the 25 yr construction ‘truth’ , although I don’t wish to derail the thread towards AE alone. The blocks per minute calculations for the timeframe I now know academics ‘believe’ it took to build the GP are simply outrageous and unworkable it now seems ridiculous to me that academia could think this type of thing was workable back then . Academia ‘believes’ the 25 year ‘tale’ and ‘believes’ the ensuing calculations that come with it. Are you not embarrassed by this ‘belief’ that has no basis in real ‘fact’? Because there are no AE records on construction timeframe , you’re happy to ‘go with‘ Herodotus . I want to laugh, but I can’t . ...and the blatant hypocrisy in this thread regarding ‘Atlantis’ ,’belief’, ‘allegory’ ‘stories’ ‘evidence’ ‘data’ is now laid bare . I am also shocked at how academia ‘picks and chooses’ which Ancient Greek stories are credible, and which are for the ridicule bin. ESPECIALLY regarding data from the Azores plateau. I’m having a hard time with academic credibility here.

So no reply to this then?
About the Greek story academia ‘believes’ to be true?

I’ve been looking since your revelation , Byrd , and I truly can’t find ANY form of proof or evidence of Herodotus’ 25 yr construction claim, it just looks like you ‘believe’ it to be true .

And I find no AE construction pictures showing the ‘short plank ‘ system Herodotus describes.

So Harte and Hanslune come on here and berate the Atlantis ‘myth’ - “you WANT to believe Atlantis “ etc, and you allow it , all the while KNOWING. academia ascribes to a ‘tale ‘ with just as many ‘fantastic’ implications as Atlantis throws up ?
Seems to me like the anti-Plato brigade need to take a cold long look in the mirror, or they’ll continue to look like clowns .

You said to me in a previous post that the paper I referred you to was good enough scientifically , yet lacked an archaeologist , palaeontologist with their expertise to add to/question elements of the paper , which I agree with , a fair point , and yet where in Egyptology do we find fabricators/builders/architects/machinists/toolmakers allowed in to the ‘inner sanctum ‘ of Egyptology to help you with the ludicrous implications of ‘one block every 5 mins , 24 hrs a day for 25 years ‘ that academia ‘believes’ in.

You don’t seriously believe that 24hrs a day thing , do you , Byrd?


Just as an aside , you should have seen how difficult it was to move a 550kg Milling Machine into my personal workshop at home, using 60degree prying bars and large wooden round fence posts as rollers . The wooden rollers (5” round) were crushed and split afterwards.
Admittedly , there were only two of us, strong blokes, but we didn’t even have to get the machine up to a different floor, just ground level.



a reply to: Byrd

originally posted by: bluesfreak

Well I’m still shocked that ALL the foundational principles we believe archaeologists about regarding the construction of the GP are based on a ‘tale’ from an Ancient Greek ‘writer’. No actual facts . Still would like to know if you ascribe to the mathematics implied regarding the 25 yr construction ‘truth’ , although I don’t wish to derail the thread towards AE alone. The blocks per minute calculations for the timeframe I now know academics ‘believe’ it took to build the GP are simply outrageous and unworkable it now seems ridiculous to me that academia could think this type of thing was workable back then . Academia ‘believes’ the 25 year ‘tale’ and ‘believes’ the ensuing calculations that come with it. Are you not embarrassed by this ‘belief’ that has no basis in real ‘fact’? Because there are no AE records on construction timeframe , you’re happy to ‘go with‘ Herodotus . I want to laugh, but I can’t . ...and the blatant hypocrisy in this thread regarding ‘Atlantis’ ,’belief’, ‘allegory’ ‘stories’ ‘evidence’ ‘data’ is now laid bare . I am also shocked at how academia ‘picks and chooses’ which Ancient Greek stories are credible, and which are for the ridicule bin. ESPECIALLY regarding data from the Azores plateau. I’m having a hard time with academic credibility here.

So no reply to this then?
About the Greek story academia ‘believes’ to be true?

I’ve been looking since your revelation , Byrd , and I truly can’t find ANY form of proof or evidence of Herodotus’ 25 yr construction claim, it just looks like you ‘believe’ it to be true .

Oh. Sorry. Didn't realize you meant that for me. The current proposed timeline is 20 -30 years for construction and that's based on the length of Khufu's reign, on information from grave inscriptions and on the remains found in the kitchens and so forth. I don't know the details since I'm more interested in the Middle Kingdom.

Smith has a book you might find interesting (Smith, Craig B. How the great pyramid was built. Smithsonian Institution, 2018.) - you can read a good deal of it for free on Google Books.

And I find no AE construction pictures showing the ‘short plank ‘ system Herodotus describes.

I believe he's referring to the construction shadouf (not the water-lifting one) like the ones used to move cargo onto boats of that period. Herodotus didn't speak Egyptian and undoubtedly things got garbled in the translation.

You said to me in a previous post that the paper I referred you to was good enough scientifically , yet lacked an archaeologist , palaeontologist with their expertise to add to/question elements of the paper , which I agree with , a fair point , and yet where in Egyptology do we find fabricators/builders/architects/machinists/toolmakers allowed in to the ‘inner sanctum ‘ of Egyptology to help you with the ludicrous implications of ‘one block every 5 mins , 24 hrs a day for 25 years ‘ that academia ‘believes’ in.

They're active in Egyptology. But they don't have ideas that appeal to alternative history buffs. Smith, who I listed above, is an engineer. In fact, I attended at least two lectures by engineers at the ARCE (Egyptology annual conference) a few years ago.

Also, the engineers, builders, fabricators aren't monolithically fixated on the Great Pyramid. The one I listened to talked about the temple of Ramesses at Abu Simbel and how it was moved.

Just as an aside , you should have seen how difficult it was to move a 550kg Milling Machine into my personal workshop at home, using 60degree prying bars and large wooden round fence posts as rollers . The wooden rollers (5” round) were crushed and split afterwards.
Admittedly , there were only two of us, strong blokes, but we didn’t even have to get the machine up to a different floor, just ground level.

I've been involved with helping move rocks containing dinosaur bones (vertebra of a sauropod) of close to that size. Takes a lot of effort, particularly when you have to move it someplace that the forklift can't reach.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened

I assumed you understood when I said 'die off' that I was referring to the society to which the builders of Göbeklitepe belonged to, not the literal collection of people that laid the stones and carved them.

Well, yes, and it's the same thing. The culture (cultures, because there are two) didn't so much die as evolve into a more sophisticated culture and eventually into a civilization -- Pre Pottery Neolithic A and B within the Natufian culture. They didn't just suddenly vanish.

Not to overly pedantic, they are not the same; there is a distinction to be made between the builders/architects of a monument/relic and the society they belong to. Let's take the Statue of Liberty for instance. Wikipedia tells us it was opened on October 28, 1886 and that its construction is of a neoclassical style.

The planners and builders of the SoL have all been deceased since very early in the last century. That is, they have physically "died off". The society, culture, whatever you want to label it, continues to this day. The customs, codes, practices, political system to which the builders belonged have not "died off". Until there ceases to be a sovereign nation called the United States, with some semblance of the same cultural ideas as ours, then our society has not "died off".

When you said "They didn't die off. They're dead because they lived 11,000 years ago and nobody lives that long." I think you were deliberately conflating the two ideas. What I conveyed is that the /society/ that the builders of Gobekli Tepe belonged to no longer exists. How long that society existed after the temple was built, how/when it morphed or was subsumed by other cultures, doesn't have anything to do with how long ago the temple builders lived or the duration of the human lifespan.

I only know the small amount of info I've recently read about the temple, its age, location, etc. but the stories I've read do posit that the temple builders' society met with a rapid decline, due to some abrupt change in climate or living conditions.

Ancient Carvings Show Evidence of a Comet

Ancient Stone Tablet Found; Reveals Comet Strike

Admittedly these articles were published within the past 2-3 years, and maybe archaeological theories and thinking have changed since then. If you have sources for different explanations, please share.

ETA
Ah, I see the blog post link you wrote at the very end of your original reply. I'll read up on that, thanks.

Read the research blog you linked. The FAQ had some interesting items, including suggestion that the reason for the temple's burial may been planned from the beginning.

it is highly probable that the enclosures were destined for burial from the very beginning, their ritual filling an integral part of their concept.

But I thought the filling/burial of the site had occurred after a long time had gone by from the original construction, maybe even hundreds of years. Would the original builders have planned to wait that long to bury the site for symbolic purposes? Seems like a stretch, but sure it's a possibility.

I read nothing in the blog concerning connection, support or erosion of the theory of human extinction in the Younger Dryas, though I didn't exhaustively search the blog.

An interesting blog for sure; the comments in the blog posts were also informative.

GT is still only 10% unearthed. No one knows what’s on the T slabs still underground, we won’t know what it all means for a long time.
This thread has shown that even after a century or more of uncovering, archaeologists are still estimating things about the GP.
Admittedly GT is a culturally significant event being so much older than the perceived timeline for Ancient Egypt, but we can’t decipher its purpose from one enclosure alone.
The deliberate burial is, in my opinion, to preserve it for the future- an ancient message in a bottle .
a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

Hi Byrd,

The current proposed timeline is 20 -30 years for construction and that's based on the length of Khufu's reign, on information from grave inscriptions and on the remains found in the kitchens and so forth. I don't know the details since I'm more interested in the Middle Kingdom.

I do understand about construction time relating to Khufu’s reign , but the mathematics and logistics it throws up are quite ridiculous, but yet ‘accepted’ .
Im not saying the AE couldn’t get organised, they sure could, however this project is something else.
How did they work 24 hrs a day?
Do the other two pyramids on the Plateau correspond to the reign timelines of their Pharoahs?

Smith has a book you might find interesting (Smith, Craig B. How the great pyramid was built. Smithsonian Institution, 2018.) - you can read a good deal of it for free on Google Books.

I actually bought the Smith, Hawass, lehrner book (over a hundred quid at the time, had some spare cash , thought ‘why not’) and yet it has many brushed over areas, also a bit of ‘made up stuff’ relating to Khufu’s visier , who is proposed as the project manager, and how he perceived the project.
It’s an interesting read , for sure, and will satiate those with no engineering knowledge, but they still remain steadfast in the ‘ramp’ theory which I personally have trouble with over certain heights.
However, if you do have engineering knowledge , it still leaves the same questions open that are frequently asked here .
It’s not a definitive ‘answer’ on how the GP was made , but a lot of supposition too.
I bought it because I wanted to know how these 3 approached it.
If only Egyptology said “ We don’t know “ a bit more..

They're active in Egyptology. But they don't have ideas that appeal to alternative history buffs. Smith, who I listed above, is an engineer. In fact, I attended at least two lectures by engineers at the ARCE (Egyptology annual conference) a few years ago.

Also, they don’t like to answer other engineers questions regarding things like 700 circular striations indicating a 35 ft saw blade moving at 1mm per revolution on a piece of granite at Abu sir.

That’s MY language , as a machinist, and yet, Egyptology’s engineer friends don’t appear to want to listen.

Also, the engineers, builders, fabricators aren't monolithically fixated on the Great Pyramid. The one I listened to talked about the temple of Ramesses at Abu Simbel and how it was moved.

Of course they’re not, way too many unanswerable questions and incredible logistical problems to explain away.

I've been involved with helping move rocks containing dinosaur bones (vertebra of a sauropod) of close to that size. Takes a lot of effort, particularly when you have to move it someplace that the forklift can't reach.

Indeed it is difficult to move any object over a couple of hundred kilos . Especially to put it ‘exactly’ in place where you want it.
The difficult thing we found moving my milling machine was the initial ‘inertia’ needed to even start it on the rollers. If it was twice the weight , I doubt we could have pushed it, even on the rollers .
The AE would have killed for a fork lift truck btw.
a reply to: Byrd

Forgive my repeated petulance , Byrd.

The official line ( I hate these definitives) on Gobekli Tepe is that we are looking at a hunter gatherer ‘culture’ at that time?
A culture perhaps on the cusp of a next stage in development .
Im not interested in debating GT purpose until we know what/why , what does the rest look like etc

Being a fabricator I am always interested in the work that goes into these ancient marvels.

Regarding GT- if this was a hunter gatherer culture on the cusp of further development , why did they choose to carve the pictograms in RELIEF, a far more advanced technique requiring far more work , than simply carving it directly onto the flat face.
You know where I’m going...
It implies they had already ‘done’ , ‘learned’ ,‘got bored with’ the simpler option.
To visualise the flat stone face into 3D ‘renderings’ in relief is the Second step , not the first.

Of course , Sumerian , Egyptian cultures perfected this technique creating literally stunning works in Relief in various stones.

Do you feel the stone work at GT is the ‘prototype’ for these later cultures that took it to the next level ?
To me, it’s a cultural concept of how to carve , something taught and passed on, not a ‘first go’ by primitive hunter gatherers.

... and those Handbags that pop up all over the place , popped up buried here too?
At what point do ‘coincidences’ turn into ‘links’?
a reply to: Byrd