OP/ED: Bushkrieg: Shock and Awe in America

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Sooner or later you're going to find out that compassion is the most important thing there is in life.

Bandit that one line post in there just thouched my hart, you are great.

Sorry I am to emotional today, I am afraid of what Mr. President is going to said to day to the American people at 10:00 AM

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by mwm1331

When in the past was there ever a financial incentve for the rich to care for the poor?

1775 - The American Revolution

1789 - The French Revolution

1917 - The Russian Revolution


There's more, but you get my drift.


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exactly my point soficrow. In every single nstance ther was n ncentive for the rich to give, as a result they didn't and revolutions happen.
Now if we gve everyone a 1 for 1 tax break whther they give 1 dollar or 100 million dollars, do you think people would give more?

Originally posted by mwm1331

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by mwm1331

When in the past was there ever a financial incentve for the rich to care for the poor?

1775 - The American Revolution
1789 - The French Revolution
1917 - The Russian Revolution

There's more, but you get my drift.

exactly my point soficrow. In every single nstance ther was n ncentive for the rich to give, as a result they didn't and revolutions happen.
Now if we gve everyone a 1 for 1 tax break whther they give 1 dollar or 100 million dollars, do you think people would give more?

So now you're saying it's incumbent upon the poor to protect the rich from their own follies and greed?

ROFLMAO

Do what you will mwm - and deal with the consequences.


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Uhh no.
I have no idea where you got that soficrow.

What I am saying is that it is the reponsibility of the government to enact laws which, without infringing on anyones rights, harness human nature for the good of society.

I am saying that rather than instituting an discriminatory tax system, and using the proceeds of such to fund social programs which the government can not run effectivly it would be smarter to create a system wherby individuals are influenced by thier own self interest to contribute to the good of society.

I mean its not a revolutionary concept or anything just the basis of the entire capitalist system.
What I am saying is extend this concept into areas which would beneft society as a whole.
Why force someone to give, when with a lttle common sense you can get them to do so voluntarily?

Originally posted by mwm1331

When in the past was there ever a financial incentve for the rich to care for the poor?

Why does it have to be a financial incentive at all? Why cant you just do it out of compassion for your fellow countrymen? What ever happened to loving thy neighbor? Is that value out the door? As long as people such as you hold this "its not my problem' mentality, there will always be a problem. What you fail to realize is the top 3% are the only ones who have the power to help now. I will agree that there are many who abuse the system, but there are also many who really have a legitimate need for it. Then there are those like myself that are not using the system, but that could change at any moment depending on what these tax reforms do.

The people in my position are the ones who really are going to be affected by this. If his tax reforms go through, there are millions out there in the same position that I am in, that will be forced to turn to the government for assistance. You think the financial load is heavy now? Wait untill 2/3 of the population is on welfare because all our money goes to taxes. So what it comes down to is you either help now with a little more, or you help later with a lot more, or you move to Switzerland and marry a skibunny.

Originally posted by mwm1331

What I am saying is that it is the reponsibility of the government to enact laws which, without infringing on anyones rights, harness human nature for the good of society.

Stop right there. That's an aristocratic elitist position if I ever heard one.

In a democracy - people direct government. Government is for the people, by the people. None of this "harnessing" bull puckey.

I mean its not a revolutionary concept or anything just the basis of the entire capitalist system.

Uh huh. And the corporate ruling class treats human beings like cattle to be herded, bred and managed - just like the ruling monarchies did before them.

Why force someone to give, when with a lttle common sense you can get them to do so voluntarily?

I'm not looking for "gifts," thank you very much. Voluntary or not, I respectfully suggest that any putative givers take such "gifts" and shove 'em where the sun don't shine.

I will have my rights.



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Like I said earlier kid, many (myself included) will give because its the right thing to do, others wont. By giving them a finacial incentive to give, we insure both groups will do so.
Thsoe that do it becuase ts right will do so no matter what, give those to whom morals are not a primary factor a good reason to, and they will as well.

Originally posted by soficrow


Stop right there. That's an aristocratic elitist position if I ever heard one.

In a democracy - people direct government. Government is for the people, by the people. None of this "harnessing" bull puckey.

No really, and what do you think the gvernment of the people by the peole does every single time it passes a law?
It harnesses human nature, specifically its desire not to be punished, to better society.
It called the criminal justice system.

Uh huh. And the corporate ruling class treats human beings like cattle to be herded, bred and managed - just like the ruling monarchies did before them.

Uhh OK go take your meds sofi.
Next poverty drive to the slaughterhouse move them doggies out!

I'm not looking for "gifts," thank you very much. Voluntary or not, I respectfully suggest that any putative givers take such "gifts" and shove 'em where the sun don't shine.

I will have my rights.



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Who the hell mentioned anything about your rights? What are you talking about? Has that way above award warped your brain?

Be nice people!!!

Originally posted by mwm1331
Bout you talk about top down class warfare, I see it as bottom up warfare.
I see the poor drivng around in new corrola's, watching color TV's, eating at resturants 3-4 tmes a week, drinking thier life away, then having the gall to want the money I have sacrificed those same exact things for?!? For what? So they can keep thier parastic lifestyle?
I see every single politician railing against and demonising "corporate america" and the "elite" despite the fact that every single technological advancement, every single thing that has made America what it is today, was either built, funded, or made possible by those self same people. I see democrats pushing a death tax to keep me from passing on the fruits of my labor to my kids so they can pay for a woman with no education and 5 kids by 5 dfferent fathers to stay at home and eat government cheese, while her children run around with no structure and grow up to burglarise my home or car jack me in traffic. I see employees who want to get paid for work they don't do, want pensions that I have to pay into becuse they aren't willing to, and want healthcare they don't have to pay for. I see union employess who's benefit packages are so ridicoulsly good, they end up working half the hours they are paid for. You want to talk about class warfare? How about the fact that amercans today would rather sue someone than work for a living?
The only consolation I have is that as bad as it is in America its far far worse in europe.

You believe the foot soildier a general!?!?

The worst abuses are not the norm, they are the exception, from either camp. I wonder exactly where you've seen poor people driving new cars or eating out regularly? The drunken thing I'll agree on; America has a chemical addiction problem, and the biggest offender is alcohol .....in poor neighborhoods/reservations, it's epidemic. But then you'll see no shortage of billboards offering up the "fortified" swill; I don't think I'll see any billboards in affluent areas for "fortified" Merlot or "Malt Liqour" any time soon.
I am a big advocate of "tough love", but I'm also realist enough to know that the sentiment can mask Darwinism of an economic/class scale. If we only had a continuation of Clinton's "workfare not welfare"......but Bu#es need the strawman.
I have "fond" memories of eating liverwurst for two meals a day, because it was on sale for $.50/lb, a loaf of rye was $1.25.......I'll never eat it again, but damned if I wasn't proud of myself for getting 15 meals in for under $5!!!! Thankfully it was also winter, and I could keep it on the fireescape, since I had no fridge!
I see innovation being stifled by government, due to cronyism & corporate welfare ( bailouts). That is one place that Darwinism should be the norm; but there it goes by the "Invisible Hand".
There's more money in built in obsolescence than innovation, and the government enables that to the detriment of the consumer.
The overwhelming data of corporations reaping record profits in parrallel to raises in the amout of people living below the poverty line/worker benefit decreases/spiraling costs........that clearly picks who is waging the class war & who is winning.

Bout I agree ther is much which needs to be clened up in the realm of corporate ethics. My problem is that worldwide sloth is a pandemic.
In a recent survey only 60% of americans wanted to own thier own business.
Only 60%!?!?!?!
Granted that number is 50% higher than in europe but still, since when did we become a nation of workers?
America has always been at its core, about self determination.
I see that changing.
I see a generaton of people who have been convinced, to paraphrase the simpsons, that the way to be happy is "to let somebody else do it"
Why work when you can sue? Why start a business when you can join a union and be an employee?
Why go to college or even graduate high school when you can eat governemnt cheese?
Why innovate?
The problems you see and the problems I see from our very different perspective are IMNSHO, two symptoms of the same disease.

That disease is the lack of persoanl responsiblity.
It first took root when we began giving people a reason not to take responsibilty.
Why should you its always someone else fault.
Got fat? its McDonalds fault, Got shot cleaning your gun? its the guns fault, dont make enough money at your job? its your employers fault, got cancer? its the tobacco companies fault. Cant work? Go to the governemnt, got fired? sue your employer. Dropped out of school and now your working at a dead end job? Its the mans fault.

nothing is ever our resonsibility anymore, nothing, its the government or the corporations, or the blacks or the whites or the liberals or the neo-cons.........
enough

Im sick of it. Im sick of hearing how everyone's problems are someone else fault. I am sick of the blame game. I am sick of the excuses.I am sick of it all.
Its worse in Europe but that aint much consolation.

Originally posted by mwm1331

Im sick of it.

Then its time for you to move to Switzerland and marry a skibunny. At least there, you will be able to hoard without one single cent going to anything but feeding your materialistic needs. This is Americans telling you how we feel. This is the 97% who have had it with the 3% eliteist who are willing to forgo the country that paved their success. This is the voice of the people that bring out your anger and frustration. It is the will of the people that you fear. 97% cant be all wrong...................

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This author calls Bush-America "Murka." The article is a good read.


"Murka is the land of profit over people, revenues over integrity, corporations over citizens, pollution over environment, the bottom line over universal principles of humanity, injustice and inequality over justice and equality, greed over reason, and the addiction to wealth over the virtue of moderation."

America: Where the Few Prosper and the Many Serve


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Originally posted by mwm1331
Uhhuh, so in other words you dont feel an employer has the right to decide how much that work is worth to them, OK got it.
So what you are saying is that you advocate facism, ie government control of Industry. Good to know.

where is the word "government" in my statement....
I'm talking about moral obligations....
ya know, the ones you think are so highly valued here it will promt the rich men in the country to do that which is practicallly bankrupting many of the county governments to do, namely feed the hungry, provide housing for the homeless, and take care of the sick...

they are seeming to refuse to take care of thier own employees.....I don't think the moral integrity is there for them to extend out to those they have never known, and don't profit from in any way.


[edit on 8-3-2005 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by brimstone735
.............
Demoralizing poor people might seem proper and parent-like, but you're really just shooting yourself in the foot. To remove all social programs, to remove all social spending, would result in nothing short of a new American Revolution and the birth of a new wave of a Communism, a war between the haves and the have nots, with you and me under the guillotine, pal.

I say, spend a little so we can retain a lot.

What in the world does it make people believe that communism is the anwser?.... Every communist country in the world has become a dictatorship, and have oppressed the poor and in fact made everyone even poorer, and please don't start with that crap that there are no true communist countries and that's why it has to be tried....i am not telling this specifically to you brimstone, but to those who have made this excuse before...

What was it that allowed China's economic boom? ..... Capitalism....although the communists are just using this system in my opinion, just to be the new economic and military power in the world. I can see them going back to their old regime tactics once this has been achieved.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by Muaddib]

okay, maybe what he is trying to say is that if you pull the safety net, your capitalistic system will collaspe......weather you veiw the aftermath as a communist plot or whatever is totally up to you.

hungry, desparate people will do stupid things......and after that, well, their is no actual plan or plot, just chaos until they are less hungry and desparate.

Originally posted by soficrow
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This author calls Bush-America "Murka." The article is a good read.


"Murka is the land of profit over people, revenues over integrity, corporations over citizens, pollution over environment, the bottom line over universal principles of humanity, injustice and inequality over justice and equality, greed over reason, and the addiction to wealth over the virtue of moderation."

America: Where the Few Prosper and the Many Serve

Soficrow....do you even know that most people in the world are 100 times in a worse situation than you are in here, or most Americans?.... Do you know there are third world countries that have more pollution, there is more injustice, etc etc?....

Most Americans have no idea what they take for granted and what they are willing to throw away for the "old communist promise".... and yes it is the old communist promise, the same one that the left has so willingly embraced in the US.....

[edit on 8-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by dawnstar
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hungry, desparate people will do stupid things......and after that, well, their is no actual plan or plot, just chaos until they are less hungry and desparate.

Hungry?....how many people in these forums are going hungry?....

Poverty is a problem all over the world....it is not just a "Capitalist problem".....

There are desperate people all over the world... tell me of a country where there is no poverty, and where there are no social problems....

And if you want to know about poverty and oppresion, give me a tell I will help you out in staying with some of my family in Cuba. Then you will see what oppression and poverty really is.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Soficrow....do you even know that most people in the world are 100 times in a worse situation than you are in here, or most Americans?.... Do you know there are third world countries that have more pollution, there is more injustice, etc etc?....

That's also because of capitalism. Those are the countries that are the riches in resources, yet they are the poorest in income. Who supports their governments most of the time? Corporations.

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Originally posted by Muaddib

Soficrow....do you even know that most people in the world are 100 times in a worse situation than you are in here, or most Americans?.... Do you know there are third world countries that have more pollution, there is more injustice, etc etc?....

That's also because of capitalism. Those are the countries that are the riches in resources, yet they are the poorest in income. Who supports their governments most of the time? Corporations.

Not really....there is no capitalism in Cuba...there is no Capitalism in Vietnam...there was no Capitalism in China until recently.... the poorest countries in income have always been communist countries, or were there has been some form of dictatorship, such as in countries in Africa. Yes, it is true that Capitalist countries also have problems, but the solution is not the "worker's revolution"......most of the time the "worker's revolution" has made the workers and everyone else poorer, and brought even more problems.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by Muaddib]