OP/ED: Bushkrieg: Shock and Awe in America

Originally posted by dawnstar
or hey better yet, admit that $6-$7 dollars an hours isn't a fair wage, and rise the minimum to something that will at least keep them alive?

That right there is a huge problem. IMO, Minimum wage ought to be set at $9.75 hr. USD. Any less than that and you start to choose between Milk for the baby or toilet paper for the family.

Kid have you ever considered that if you have a family and are working for minimum wage it might be your own fault?
I dont know anyone from my neighborhood (a very very poor area) who was still mking minimum wage by 20-21.

Well good Dr. At least her sources are reliable and she doesn’t get them from the moony newspaper, he,he, not offense.

Well let see more on the Bankruptcy reform, in the old bankruptcy law, debtors used to meet some requirements either they didn’t have to pay for any of their insecure debt called Chapter 7 or they were forced to pay part of their bills, chapter 13, and I thing that was fair and square.

www.bankruptcyaction.com...

I always believe that if you can pay then you should pay.

Now the bankruptcy reforms that is on the table was rejected back in 1973 and 1997, because even then the reform commissions new that it would force people with families that just lost a job to lose everything just to pay for the debt.

Also another group that will definitely will become tangles with this reform and social security reforms will be the seniors, when comes to the time in which you have to choose into paying for a bill and feed your children the government will force you into paying the bill first over letting your children eat.

Now how can this be good for the impoverished hard-working American that just lost a job? I see as a punishment.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Kid have you ever considered that if you have a family and are working for minimum wage it might be your own fault?
I dont know anyone from my neighborhood (a very very poor area) who was still mking minimum wage by 20-21.

As I said, why punish the poor for being poor? Isnt being poor punishment enough? My wife and I were VERY poor when we first got married. I made $9.00 an hour as a carpenter forman and she made $2.15 and hardly any tips as a waitress. She got an education in the beauty industry, and I am now attending college myself. You know what? We are still poor. I attend college full time, and Homeschool my daughter in the afternoons. My wife works at an upscale Spa/Salon and she makes less than $30000 a year at it, even after going to school. I stand to get a job making anywhere between 15 and 25 dollars an hour when I am out of school. You know what? Things will still be tight because by that time, I will have school loans to pay off, House payments, Car payments, Insurance, ect ect. Life aint cheap, but we are doing it on our own. If the government were to increase our taxes, we would be forced to start eating up your tax dollars using medicade and foodstamps.



[edit on 3/7/05 by Kidfinger]

Kid I'm not talking about increasing your taxes, I am however talking about changing the tax laws so that I pay exactly what you do.
Currently the minimum tax rate is what 10% 15%?
Whatever it is simply enforce it across the board.
Why should I pay 25% of my income when you only pay 10-15% of yours?
Isn't that discrimination?

As for your payments, have you ever cnsidered that maybe you would be better off wthout all those payments?
No offense ut you chose to buy that house, that car, why should I feel bad that it s creatng a burden for you?
Why should I have to pay an extra 15% or so more than you do?

Originally posted by Kidfinger
You know what? Things will still be tight because by that time, I will have school loans to pay off, House payments, Car payments, Insurance, ect ect. Life aint cheap, but we are doing it on our own. If the government were to increase our taxes, we would be forced to start eating up your tax dollars using medicade and foodstamps.

Yes, kid I know how exactly it will be, you will have to start thinking about your daughters college, and children as they get older they get expensive, then you will have to worry about your own finances and how to save or invest for your retirement.

Let not forget medical insurance, dental and other expenses that will come alone the way.

And on top of that because of your higher tax bracket you will be paying higher taxes.

I know exactly what you are going trough and how it seems that even with education things will get better with more pay but you have to plan for "eventualities" so it takes the fun away from what you work so hard.

Also if god forbid the bankruptcy reform pass and you and you wife hit a low time, you will have to think on paying the bills first "per obligation" or lose everything and let your daughter starve.

for the middle class hard working American it seems that is only punishment what awaits us for wanting to be better.

[edit on 7-3-2005 by marg6043]

If he doesn't pay a mortgage, then he has to pay rent. What's the difference?? And if he doesn't have a car, he has to use public transportation, which he still has to pay for.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
If he doesn't pay a mortgage, then he has to pay rent. What's the difference?? And if he doesn't have a car, he has to use public transportation, which he still has to pay for.

The difference is ...................................


What he can afford

Let's hear it from him first. We don't have any idea of his situation.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Kid I'm not talking about increasing your taxes, I am however talking about changing the tax laws so that I pay exactly what you do.
Currently the minimum tax rate is what 10% 15%?
Whatever it is simply enforce it across the board.
Why should I pay 25% of my income when you only pay 10-15% of yours?
Isn't that discrimination?

I dont know whare you get your figures from, but my taxes have always been at least 23% or more of my check. I think there should be a flat 25% tax accross the board. I dont think that would be a bad Idea at all.

As for your payments, have you ever cnsidered that maybe you would be better off wthout all those payments?

Well, some payments are necessities. Rent, insurance, gas, electric, phone, food, you know.

No offense ut you chose to buy that house, that car, why should I feel bad that it s creatng a burden for you?

If the taxes are not raised, it is a burden I can handle, and I am not asking for your sympathy. I havent taken on all those payments yet because if I did, I would be relying on the Government for assistance, and I refuse to do that. I still rent an apartment, drive a 95 Geo Metro, My wife drives a Kia Rio. WE live as cheaply as we possibly can.

Why should I have to pay an extra 15% or so more than you do?

Because you can afford it? Are you that greedy? How much is enough? I dont desire to make millions. I desire to live a good life with my family and be happy with what I can provide. My family is important to me, not the money. If I WAS a millionair like Gates or Forbes, I would be walking down the street throwing money at people and living in a modest house driving a toyota prius.(Although I would still have the suped up Chrysler Crossfire sitting in the Garage. My dream car) I am not sure what this obsession people have with needing the biggest and the best and be damned to those under me.

BTW kdfinger I am honestly not trying to insult you.
have been poor, hell I've been homeless, and I know it aint easy.
But why should I have to pay a higher tax rate than you do?
Yes make more so I accept my gross dollar contribtion will be higher, but why should I be forced to pay a higher percentage?

well, let's see, in our case the house payment was cheaper than anything we could rent...ummm....you do agree that people do need homes to live in don't you? Wouldn't a perspective employer expect his employee to have a home, not to mention a phone line connecting it to the outside world? And, don't they also expect you to have a reliable car, which legally, you need insurance to use it on the road? And, well, it's the Bush administration and the Rebublican party pushing higher education as the great hope for our economy.....get used to the loss of spending power due to people having to pay back their student loans. matter of fact, you just might have to get used to higher school taxes, since the cost of those student loans, plus the cost of living is quickly approaching the point where the salaries of teachers don't pay that much, so, well, there a problem getting people to want to teach.

There are plenty of people such as teenagers who work at or near minimum wage and don't need to support a family or even themselves.

Any raising of the minimum wage will simply result in inflation that will cancel out the higher wages. It's an economic law.

Because you can afford it? Are you that greedy? How much is enough? I dont desire to make millions. I desire to live a good life with my family and be happy with what I can provide. My family is important to me, not the money. If I WAS a millionair like Gates or Forbes, I would be walking down the street throwing money at people and living in a modest house driving a toyota prius.(Although I would still have the suped up Chrysler Crossfire sitting in the Garage. My dream car) I am not sure what this obsession people have with needing the biggest and the best and be damned to those under me.

See right there is my problem. The reason I can afford to is becuase of my own work. Its not about greed it about being fair. And who are you to decide for me "how much is enough?"
I am sick of hearing about the top 3% and how they make thier money on the backs of the poor. I am one of the top 3%. You know how I make my money? I get europeans, specifically rich europeans, to invest money in Amercan startup companies.
In other words I create jobs.
So why then am I penalised for my success. I'm not talking about charitble gving either, am talking about taxes. The one has nothing to do with the other.

Yes I make more, however do you honestly believe that means its OK to take more of what I work for than what you work for?




[edit on 7-3-2005 by mwm1331]

well, we could drop the safety nets, and take bets as to weather those wages that need to be raised rise before the choas begins...

at the moment, the $9/hr seems to be a pretty good wage for some family men, who once made $16 or more an hours.

read the classifeds....ya, they want 10 years of experience....$8.50/hr.....
to me, it's kind of a given that if they want 10 years experience, they want someone who is probably responsible for a family.

It all really comes down to high wage earners and corporations having more power than low wage earners. If a government is taxing a corporation too much they will just change their location to another country that has lower taxes, same with high wage earners since they can emigrate more easily because most countries want highly skilled workers. Low wage earners don't really even have the choice of emigration because there is no lack of immigrants that aren't highly skilled. It's all about keeping people who could leave quite easily in the country, as well as the fact that politicians get a lot of campaign money from the uber rich.

Originally posted by mwm1331


Yes I make more, however do you honestly believe that means its OK to take more of what I work for than what you work for?

In my opinion, Yes. Simply because I would be willing to give alot more if I had alot more. I like to think I care about my fellow countrymen and though I dont have much more to offerthan that of debatable opinions and a couch to sleep on, you, or anyone else is welcome to come and partake of my house if you are in need.

[edit on 3/7/05 by Kidfinger]

Kidfinger again, its not about how much I give or how much you would give.
Giving is voluntary Taxes aren't.
What you are telling me is that you don't believe in equality, instead you believe in beneficial discrimination.
You believe its OK to penalise the rich for being rich, OK then why do you object to the rich having more political power?
If we are to be penalised more on a percentage basis than the poor its only fair that we get a stronger political voice in return.
Or do you believe that only the wealthy should be discriminated against?

Originally posted by mwm1331
So why then am I penalised for my success. I'm not talking about charitble gving either, am talking about taxes. The one has nothing to do with the other.

Yes I make more, however do you honestly believe that means its OK to take more of what I work for than what you work for?

[edit on 7-3-2005 by mwm1331]

You may have money but you are not part of the wealthy elite, because you still have to work.

Now body is penalizing people that work in jobs that help the economy with jobs, as you do.

The problem is the how the administration policies and "reforms" seems to punish the hard working American, and it seems that it's only punishing them from trying to get better.

And when they hit a "low time" because our economy is not very reliable and jobs neither, then they will be penalized the most.

I am very happy that you have a job that seems to help others, and for that I praise you.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Kidfinger again, its not about how much I give or how much you would give.
Giving is voluntary Taxes aren't.
What you are telling me is that you don't believe in equality, instead you believe in beneficial discrimination.

No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am simply saying that if I had more I would give more. If other Americans held this philosophy, we wouldnt be in the mess we are in. I believe in compassion for my fellow citizens. I believe in the direct helping of other needy people. I believe in loving thy neighbor and supporting my friends. It is not so evil as you make it sound. I have compasion for my fellow Americans that I believe is lost to the top 3% of the economic elite. For them, it is about the amassing of wealth and the gratification of material substance.