Trying to resolve 9/11

a reply to: kwakakev

Might read this...

www.metabunk.org/ethiopian-airlines-flight-302-and-9-11s-united-flight-93.t10552/

www.metabunk.org...

It is sad that it took another tragedy to bring focus to the spaciousness of the 9/11 Truthers' arguments. And sadly another tragedy, the crash of Ethiopian Flight 302, may fill the same role this year in the arguments surrounding the fourth plane on 9/11: United Flight 93

Flight 93 crashed into a field on 9/11 after some of the passengers attempted to regain control. Inverted and at high speed, it buried itself in the dirt, leaving only a roughly plane-shaped crater and some scattered debris. The Truther refrain is "where's the plane", with the argument being that when planes crash you can see the plane.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: kwakakev

Might read this...

www.metabunk.org/ethiopian-airlines-flight-302-and-9-11s-united-flight-93.t10552/

www.metabunk.org...

It is sad that it took another tragedy to bring focus to the spaciousness of the 9/11 Truthers' arguments. And sadly another tragedy, the crash of Ethiopian Flight 302, may fill the same role this year in the arguments surrounding the fourth plane on 9/11: United Flight 93

Flight 93 crashed into a field on 9/11 after some of the passengers attempted to regain control. Inverted and at high speed, it buried itself in the dirt, leaving only a roughly plane-shaped crater and some scattered debris. The Truther refrain is "where's the plane", with the argument being that when planes crash you can see the plane.

This is exactly the sort of thing that Kev should have been looking for before he decided what an aircraft should look like after a crash

Instead he fell back on the standard argument from incredulity type fallacy that is behind the majority of Truther claims

"I don't believe it could have happened like that therefore it didn't!"

Operation clean sweep in Shanksville took place about 3 weeks after the event and took about 300 people a weekend to double check the involved area for anything previously missed, link. If someone can find out the size of the area that was searched, then this is roughly the size of the debris field.

One investigation to the matter puts the area of the debris field at 8 miles, here

Can you show me a plane crash where wreckage has been spread that far? There are many examples of this occurring when the plane breaks apart in the sky.

originally posted by: kwakakev
Operation clean sweep in Shanksville took place about 3 weeks after the event and took about 300 people a weekend to double check the involved area for anything previously missed, link. If someone can find out the size of the area that was searched, then this is roughly the size of the debris field.

One investigation to the matter puts the area of the debris field at 8 miles, here

Can you show me a plane crash where wreckage has been spread that far? There are many examples of this occurring when the plane breaks apart in the sky.

So you've just given up on trying to support your claim

" This does not happen when a fully intact airplane hits the ground. "

and you've gone for shifting the burden instead. Quelle surprise

originally posted by: mrthumpy
Far more plausible than the hijack story. I mean that's just too ridiculous to contemplate

Yup. Hundreds of people 'disappearing' at some secret military base with not a peep about what happened is so much more plausible than hijackings.

a reply to: mrthumpy

I am not sure what you expect from me. All the answers on a silver platter? All the evidence? The whole big case wrapped up with a little red ribbon?

I do provide references to the claims and allegations made so I am not sure what you mean by not supporting my claims?

By 'this does not happen when a fully intact airplane hits the ground', I am referring to the size of the debris field

By shifting the burden I am trying to get you stand up and take some responsibility for your own knowledge on the matter. Like you do for me, sharing is caring.

a reply to: kwakakev

You do understand at the flight 93 crash site the recovery crews excavated an area 70 feet by 70 feet, and 40 feet down to recovery the bulk of the aircraft?

Comparing truth movement websites, vs “debunking” sites, vs the documented facts might be a good start. Knowing all sides of the argument would be a good start.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: mrthumpy

I am not sure what you expect from me. All the answers on a silver platter? All the evidence? The whole big case wrapped up with a little red ribbon?

Not in the slightest. Just an example of an aircraft crash for you to base this claim on

" This does not happen when a fully intact airplane hits the ground. "

As it stands all you've got is "because I say so"

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: mrthumpy
Far more plausible than the hijack story. I mean that's just too ridiculous to contemplate

Yup. Hundreds of people 'disappearing' at some secret military base with not a peep about what happened is so much more plausible than hijackings.

Only topped by space laser dustification

a reply to: neutronflux

Yes, I did come across some of the excavation work involved in the clean up operation. I have not seen a complete list and map of what was found where. This kind of information I imagine will help alleviate the questions you have on this matter.

As for how one would go about getting this information, I am not exactly sure. Does anyone know anyone who lives around Shanksville and was involved in the clean up operation? Have the FBI released anything related yet? They had control of the sight for the first 13 days? The Somerset County Coroner then took command of the area, maybe give them a call.

a reply to: kwakakev

How about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17? This is another commercial passenger plane that was also shot down out of the sky. The resulting debris field was also spread over a very large area.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: kwakakev

How about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17? This is another commercial passenger plane that was also shot down out of the sky. The resulting debris field was also spread over a very large area.

Where did they have to dig up a bulk of the jet to get to the wreckage. You can find pictures of identifiable passports from the crash by the way. Along with books and other documents from peoples personal belongings.

Ethiopian Flight 302 crash site is a closer match.

a reply to: neutronflux

I am not sure what you are trying to indicate by some wreckage getting buried. It happens, in the flight 93 hole a lot of soil did get moved around on impact, of course some of it will be buried with the other parts that landed there. As for finding the whole plane in that one hole, the FBI photos referenced earlier in this thread prove that was not the case.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: kwakakev

How about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17? This is another commercial passenger plane that was also shot down out of the sky. The resulting debris field was also spread over a very large area.

Is that comparable to the crash of Flight 93? Nope, try again

a reply to: kwakakev

I didn’t post all of flight 93 was in the excavated area. I said the bulk of flight 93 was in the excavated area. Now you are playing the conspiracist’s game of misquotes and information out of context.

It is hard to say just how much damage the plane sustained when it got shot. Most of the plane may well of still been intact at the crater site. Enough of the plane was damaged while in flight to be uncontrollable. With parts of the plane found up to 8 miles away, it is a clear indication that initial damage occurred at altitude.

a reply to: mrthumpy

How do you want it to be comparable? While elements are important to you. Every crash is different with its own circumstances so it will not be exactly the same.

originally posted by: kwakakev
It is hard to say just how much damage the plane sustained when it got shot. Most of the plane may well of still been intact at the crater site. Enough of the plane was damaged while in flight to be uncontrollable. With parts of the plane found up to 8 miles away, it is a clear indication that initial damage occurred at altitude.

You are avoiding answering the question. Was the crash site of flight 93 more like the Malaysia flight crash site, or the Ethiopian flight crash site?

a reply to: neutronflux

From what I currently know about the Ethiopian flight, automated systems, fault sensor, cockpit complexity, took over the system causing the plane to repeatedly pitch up then dive. the approach and impact this accident would of made is similar to the narrative of the passengers fight for control of the plane. With part of the plane disabled you would expect the yaw to increase from the unbalanced aerodynamics, so it would land upside down on its head, like we have with flight 93.

The Malaysia flight got hit hard, ripped apart in the air with different chunks here and there.

What ever was found 8 miles away is a good clue to where it all started.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: mrthumpy

How do you want it to be comparable? While elements are important to you. Every crash is different with its own circumstances so it will not be exactly the same.

I'd like it to be an aircraft that crashed in a similar way to the way that you say Flight 93 didn't crash. So that you have some sort of basis for claiming " This does not happen when a fully intact airplane hits the ground. " other than just because you say so.

I understand that this kind of critical thinking is completely alien to you but try and keep up