Why being civil is both morally and strategically the right way to have political discourse

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: DBCowboy

Well we all have discussions for our own reasons I guess.

I would rather get more people to agree with me when discussing politics, but if you think that is unattainable and just want to haave fun thats perfectly fine as well.

However, that is exactly what the trolls think, and we hardly need more of them in my opinion.

*shakes head*

I will never change someone's mind.

I can't.

No one can.

What we can do is help them change their own minds.

You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

a reply to: Grambler

Of course you're right , but Boy oh Boy, it's gets harder everyday to turn the other cheek. Dealing with this insanity is like dealing with a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum. We either give in for a peaceful moment or tow the line and teach that child that they won't get their way through emotional blackmail.

a reply to: Grambler

The giant gorilla in the room is that what is happening mirrors the behavior we see from candidates in our elections. Society is simply mimicking our leaders behavior.

The only way it will ever change is if we change who our leaders are, but that will never happen as long as both parties have so many partisans in their hip pockets. Neither sides leaders want civility, they want us at each others throats.

The last thing our leaders want is intelligent debate and civility. That would mean the focus would be on them, who they are, how they act and who they really are.

It also keeps the people we need in office out of the elections. All the division and hate keeps the sane rational people as far away from running for office as they can get, insuring the current crop of losers maintain their power.

Both sides have drank the Kool-Aid and just keep guzzling it and treating politics like a sporting event. As long as we remain at each others throats, the bad guys win and the bad guys know it.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Thanks for your opinion on me not needing to have a video at the end of my threads.

I know I dont have to, I chose to.

Again, I think we need to be the example for what we want to see. thats why I criticize myself as screwing up all the time.

But lets not kid ourselves, you have been one of the worst offenders of having threads basically trolling Trump supporters.

Yes, I know that often times one sentence insulting posts get far more attention than a point by point well thought out response.

But that attention is usually just coming from the groups of people that strongly agree and disagree with you.

The rest of the people in the middle are probably not impressed, though I could be wrong.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Which of those incidents you cite helped the person or group enganged in the incivility?

Well, Jefferson beat Addams in the 1800 POTUS election, Aaron Burr was soundly defeated in races following Hamilton's slur but in the end Burr lived, Hamilton did not... Brooks paid a fine and did some jail time for assaulting Sumner, but was re-elected to the House following the assault... Andrew Jackson's penchant for kicking opponent's asses got him to the presidency and consideration as not only one the nation's best presidents, but also the toughest man to hold the office... McCarthyism ran a lot of folks out of DC and likely pushed the progressive movement in this country back by at least a decade... and the assassinations during the civil rights movement laid the groundwork for the borderline race war the government needed to allow them to run roughshod in Vietnam for a few years or more.

I'd say they each helped drive narratives and agendas quite nicely.

a reply to: Grambler

Great post Grambler

It is my New Years resolution

EDIT: Thick heads aren't making it easy, however. But most things worthwhile are not easy

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I dont think jefferson calling someone a hermaphrodite gained him victory.

Assassinations almost always backfire on the group commiting them

For example, killing MLK of JFK gained both of them more influence.

Jackson may be an example, but there are nuanced differences.

The problem is civility may not be the most precise term; Jackson being known as a scrapper is different that calling women sluts of everyone racist or just dumb rubes, etc.

There is a way to be uncivil in a brash way and still be effective at persuasion. However, it is very difficult, and usually done better with individuals in leadership as opposed to online posters or regular people in life.

The types of uncivility and who it is directed at matter greatly in rather or not it can be effective. I dont think "All trump supporters are toothless racsists" will be that effective, nor the reverse, and thats what we are seeing more often.

How's about take a page from Ben Shipiro

a reply to: Blaine91555

Well its a chicken or egg dillemma.

In order for uncivil leaders to have been elected, their uncivility had to be tolerated.

So did the people become uncivil as a mirror of the leaders, or the leaders as a mirror of the people?

Jonathan Haidt was just on Joe rogans podcast.

He wrote a book I am reading, The Coddling of the American Mind, where he talks about the PC safe space culture on campuses.

He explains on the podcast how actually until the 90's or so, democrats and republicans didnt have massive dislike for each other.

That all started to change around 200, and has been greatly escalating.

He shows that this coincides with things like social media, and academia and other places becoming almost exclsuivly one sided.

This leads to less discourse, and more silencing or hatred of opponents on both sides.

This clip is long and not all about what I mentioned above, but worth checking out.

a reply to: Grambler

But lets not kid ourselves, you have been one of the worst offenders of having threads basically trolling Trump supporters.

Dude walk a mile in my shoes

I have had literally death threats because someone didn’t like what it wrote on ATS.

I have been told my threads (some of which I put a lot of work into) are trash, worthless, retarded, stupid, am brainwashed, mentally ill, been mocked for being dyslexic and there is always some happy camper who wants to give me a lecture because I am obviously the village idiot with TDS and OMFG HOW CAN ANYONE CARE WHAT A BRIT HAS TO SAY...

Posting on ATS as someone who doesn’t need shades when looking at Trumps bum hole is like walking on to a militant vegan site and posting steak recipes. It’s a hostile environment. And I already know someone is going to read that and say....ahhh look he is insulting is again. No am not am make a joke, it’s a analogy.

Too many people take criticsims of Trump personally.

Like I said I gotta bottle of whisky waiting for me....

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Anyone threatening you is clearly out of line, period.

However, you should respect the insults when you make thread after thread insulting trump supporters.

Now I didnt really insult you, I would make it a point to disagree with you, or to make a thread where i refuse to insult all trump haters n response to your thread, etc.

This is another thing that results from using this type of insulting rhetoric in political discousre.

You by any objectionable stand point would make threads grouping all trump supporters together as something bad, and yet you then lament when people response to you in kind.

This is the cycle I am talking about that further spirals out of control.

a reply to: Grambler

OK, I'll buy that. The fine art of putting someone down while remaining classy has been lost. I blame the anonymity of the internet combined with the modern acceptance of attention whoring to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Those who live and die by how much attention they receive flap their gums unjudiciously with cameras rolling while those who aren't as secure in everyone knowing what an asshat they are do so behind the anonymous veil of the internet.

a reply to: Grambler
A sideways point is how we communicate today.
I think 'memes' will be a new form of linguistic tool as society moves forward.
Civility will need to overcome the challenges the digital age and social media era.

There will be conclusions drawn solely based on the format of communication.

Sort of like misinterpreting a text message; the meaning of the message can be lost in translation because the social or civil way of communicating, or how we evolved, is slowly beginning to fade. The more we communicate digitally, the more society degrades, and the more social discourse to be had.

We're easily impressionable because our attention span has become not too dissimilar to a cat having landed in a bag of catnip- or mass media.

Radio forever changed society as we knew it, well the MSM or mass social media era is a genesis very similar. World wide connectivity today, is the same assimilation on society the radio was in the early 20th century.

People can be persuaded like never before.

a reply to: Grambler

Ohhh so because I wrote a thread about “the trump supporters handbook”.....it’s okay then for usually at least one or two people per thread insult me in some way.....got it.

What about all the threads about how the left are doing this that or the next thing???

Dude your massively bias toward the right so you will never really understand the kind of crap those of us who are in the left have to put up with on this site.

a reply to: odzeandennz

Yes this sort o0f goes with the Haidt clip I posted above.

We need more study into why the evidence seems to show that hatred for the other side aong republicans and democrats really took off in the early 2000's

I think our communication tech would probably have a lot to do with that, and your post brings a lot to mind on how it could further be exacerbated.

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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Grambler

Ohhh so because I wrote a thread about “the trump supporters handbook”.....it’s okay then for usually at least one or two people per thread insult me in some way.....got it.

What about all the threads about how the left are doing this that or the next thing???

Dude your massively bias toward the right so you will never really understand the kind of crap those of us who are in the left have to put up with on this site.

Where did I say it was ok?

I specifically said it is all wrong in my eyes, no matter who started it in the OP.

I also mentioned that there are people on all sides that do this. The majority of my posting today has been discussing why civility would be a better strategy for my fellow trump supporters, so clearly I recognize the problem.

I am merely saying that you posted thread after thread after thread insulting trump supporters, and now act as if you are shocked that people reciprocated. I am not saying that reciprocation is ok or good, I am saying its predictable when you engage that way, because it is a self fulfilling cycle.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Dude your massively bias toward the right so you will never really understand the kind of crap those of us who are in the left have to put up with on this site.

Anyone who was right leaning and here during the tail end of the Bush administration absolutely can fully understand the kind of crap you're talking about. Such is the tribulation of a user generated content site.