The Roswell Deception

a reply to: scrounger

Of course anything could be aliens without absolute proof. I couldn't find my keys the other day. No one admitted to moving them or seeing them. Then, there they were under the sofa. Who's to say aliens didn't put them there?

Of course there is no proof of aliens existing let alone having the ability to travel to Earth from wherever it is they come from. Sure we have to remain open minded that it's a possibility.

But, if the best evidence that Roswell was an event of such cosmic proportions, is that we can't prove it wasn't aliens then that possibility has to be a very tiny one.

a reply to: jamescarrion

Thanks for putting out this book free of charge James. I thought it made a good, albeit circumstantial, case and you unearthed some very interesting articles and documents from the time period. I will have to go over it all again to be able to absorb everything.

However it is apparent even today that the US intel community still have a strong interest in ufology. In fact it appears they may have even infiltrated the entertainment (or ufotainment) industry too. Stealthily putting out unsubstantiated theories via shows like Ancient Aliens and retaining close ties to some of the big names in the field.

a reply to: mirageman

Thanks for reading the book which highlights the possible motives for US Military Intelligence/early CIA involvement in the 1946-1947 period.

You are correct in stating that the involvement is ongoing, in fact that is a common thread in the history of Ufology since 1947. The motivations and goals have most likely evolved - trying to substantiate those goals is difficult. We should however not just blame US intelligence for meddling in the field today. There are probably many foreign governments who are meddling at the same time.

Regards,
James

a reply to: jamescarrion

I know it's not Roswell related but any thoughts on what is going on at Skinwalker Ranch and the To the Stars Academy operation?

a reply to: mirageman

Unfortunately, I don't think I have anything to contribute as to what is currently going on at the skinwalker ranch or the rationale or motives behind To the Stars. I have been in contact with a couple of journalists who are digging deeply into both stories and are burrowing themselves in. I am sure we will get some much needed insight from them.

a reply to: jamescarrion

I recall a few years ago when you mentioned one of the NIDS scientists/associates claiming they'd found rods of Element 115 (at the ranch I believe). It might have been on your original blog or perhaps in interview with Greg Bishop. It stuck in my mind as it's such a clearly reckless falsehood with a fairly clear origin in ufological lore. It also suggests some underlying theme, or narrative, from the myth makers* and perhaps a few gossamer threads to link individuals and groups. At the very least, whoever said it was speaking to the market and not a wider audience which was enough to raise an eyebrow.

* I use the term 'myth makers' as a broad brush that may include intelligence personnel as well as those in UFO media and hucksters. There's no reason to think they can't all overlap and plenty of examples to show they often have down the decades.

a reply to: Kandinsky

I wrote a blog post on my visit with Dr. Frank Salisbury to the Skinwalker ranch when Bigelow refused us entry. That is when I first heard the NIDS scientist's claim about Element 115 being found on the ranch. I brought this to the attention of the MUFON Board and like everything else that doesn't sound ET or would put them at odds with a financial benefactor, they swept it under the rug and ignored it. That was the beginning of the end with my relationship with MUFON and Bigelow's subcontract with MUFON. Yes, it does make the Skinwalker ranch suspect as just a breeding ground for fresh UFO/paranormal mythology and a springboard for regurgitating older conspiracy theories. Overlooked by believers and discarded by skeptics. There is a signal in the skinwalker ranch noise and it is NOT paranormal in nature.


Regards,
James

a reply to: jamescarrion

Would that signal be DIA/DARPA in nature?

I think it's a perfect venue for human testing of certain mm / psychotronic platforms and their applications.

Anyone gets an inkling and the perfect cover is there...it's that weird ranch with ufos and inside out cows...move along people nothing to see here.

Hiding in plain sight with a veil of weird is the perfect cover for a lot of things I think.

I wonder how the consortium's visit went this month?

a reply to: pigsy2400

When I was with MUFON, Bigelow would not reveal who his financial sponsor was for the MUFON subcontract, only telling John Schuessler. After AATIP became public knowledge and that it was the DIA behind it, it does not take a leap of faith to guess that they may also be behind the Skinwalker ranch events. I have often wondered myself if the ranch was being used as a test bed for non lethal weapons.

The Skinwalker ranch stories would be far more believable if Bigelow, NIDS, their "sponsors", the NDAs they make people sign, and the strange characters involved in the ranch that have one foot in the Ufology and one foot in the Intelligence community had no active part in it.

a reply to: jamescarrion

You are correct in stating that the involvement is ongoing, in fact that is a common thread in the history of Ufology since 1947. The motivations and goals have most likely evolved - trying to substantiate those goals is difficult. We should however not just blame US intelligence for meddling in the field today. There are probably many foreign governments who are meddling at the same time.

Undoubtedly. But the meddling seems considerably more overt in the United States. Going way back to the days of the 1950s when agents infiltrated UFO groups. For example Roscoe H. Hillenkoetter was the 1st Director of the CIA and also sat on the board of NICAP in the 1950s after his 'retirement'. We had the escapades of Richard Doty in the 1980s and now we have a whole host of 'friendly' former intelligence people helping Tom DeLonge run his "Services Allied to Motion Pictures" academy.

Perhaps it is because of the fact that 'disclosure' (whatever that may really mean to those who demand it) is expected to come from the very people who have supposedly obscured the truth for almost three quarters of a century. Which, linking back to your book, makes me wonder if they happened to hit upon a winning formula back in early Cold War era?

originally posted by: jamescarrion
a reply to: scrounger

THAT is your proof of an alien spacecraft crashing at Roswell? Because the Air Force said something crashed, but said it decades later?


Where in your PROOF quote is the word "crashed" ... I don't see it...

Are we even on the same planet?

first I said it wasnt PROOF it was alien craft (again I DONT KNOW) but proof that it COULD REASONABLY BE.

given the FACT the government HAS NOT PROVIDED PROOF what they recovered.
add to it alot of what they claim in reports has more holes than swiss cheese

but again I (unlike alot here) dont dismiss it like it was impossible or improbable

second

here is the quote with bold for emphasis'

"In the July 1994 Report of Air Force Research Regarding the Roswell Incident, the Air Force DID NOT DISPUTE THAT SOMETHING HAPPENED NEAR ROSWELL, but reported that the most likely source of the WRECKAGE was from the balloon-launched classified government project designed to determine the state of Soviet nuclear weapons research. "

Definition of wreckage
1 : the act of wrecking : the state of being wrecked
2a : something that has been wrecked
b : broken and disordered parts or material from something wrecked

definition of wrecked

Something, especially a vehicle or building, that has been badly damaged or destroyed.

so unless wreckage suddenly grew out of the ground like a weed or materialized out of a transporter beam a "crash" had to happen.

either mid air and it fell or a collision with the ground.

hence a CRASH.

now I am willing to say it is also possible it was a secret project that malfunctioned and/or something else happened resulting in the wreckage and a need at the time to keep it secret.

but common its been 70 years .

Logic dictates (along with practical examples like the u2 SPYPLANE) that any technical hardware, any mission, and any need for secrecy of 1947 era has LONG SINCE PASSED.

so there is ZERO reason to say.(example) . what crashed at roswell was a secret government spy project called
"mogul" using balloon carried equipment to spy on russia... this day was mission a143 to study the atomic woopie couches test in BFE siberia... unfortunately it crashed due to lightening strike with not converting metric to american measurements
here is the now declassified system and how it was developed.
showing the innovation of the US during the first months of the cold war , yadda yadda yadda...

the whole thing put to bed, giving credit to government, ect.
just like they did with the U2.

but they havent.

lastly.
I noticed that people thought this conversation keep saying things like "witnesses after all this time can be mistaken", "there are reasons like deceiving the russians" and where is the hard proof type of logic.

well when you turn that very logic on the government explanations, especially claiming witnesses to the fact may be mistaken , then that very logic also discredits the government explanations as well.

Look unless someone can provide PROOF on EXACTLY what crashed in/near roswell the claim its a weather balloon, no wait project mogul, no wait its deception to fool the russians has as much possibility as an alien craft/probe/ship got caught in a lightning strike and crashed.

to say one theory has no possibility but the others with the same lack of and/or flawed information is what happened is not logical or intellectually honest.

so in conclusion for the umpteenth time..... I DONT KNOW WHAT CRASHED ...
but I am willing to say its POSSIBLE it was not of this earth...but it also is possible it was...
I WANT PROOF before saying what it was/wasnt

scrounger

a reply to: jamescarrion


That doesn't surprise me at all to be honest... it always puzzled me that people always pointed at Bigelow and didn't consider who was holding his strings.I don't want to go on much more in this thread as I don't want to derail it from Roswell, so firstly apologies for that.

I am pretty convinced that SWR and other such places/stories/memes within ufology are just that in some cases. Logically it makes sense to me, what the people witnessed was correct and real to them. What caused these however, was probably more earthbound than anything out there or in between. M

Mind manipulation is the culprit I feel, which is why they didn't really record anything of any significance out there. Interesting to think that all that monitoring equipment out there, that it wasn't to monitor any "phenomena" but to monitor the people there looking for things that had an expectation to see something and did due to non lethal weapons.

Anyway, I am a few hundred pages into your book and look forward to contributing once I have digested it all and can contribute.

Back on topic and apologies again guys, I know there is a lot of cross over in a lot of these things..

originally posted by: mirageman

However it is apparent even today that the US intel community still have a strong interest in ufology..

..and monitoring and infiltrating UFO groups.

Have no idea what the Roswell object was mate but did think A51Watcher's thread did a good job of putting other sightings into context.


The Day Before Roswell



a reply to: jamescarrion

Hi James, don't want to detract from this discussion but there are two other relevant threads below:

James Carrion - "Announcing The Center for UFO Truth

Why is Mufon holding back information on the "Abduction Monitoring Project" ?


Did you ever get approached by the CIA whilst working for MUFON and do you have any information regarding the project mentioned above?

a reply to: scrounger

You have yet to show any proof of anything or contribute anything of substance to this discussion, and you appear to only want to argue for the sake of arguing.... Read my book, read all the original documentation that the end notes have online links to .... come back and discuss...

a reply to: karl 12

I realized after starting my independent research journey back in 2009 that I didn't really need to form another organization after all so the Center for UFO Truth was abandoned... The culmination of my 10 year research journey is The Roswell Deception

As for the Ambient Monitoring Project, when I was MUFON International Director, I was in possession of the collected AMP data which consisted of a CD of datapoints collected by the AMP hardware. The AMP hardware were square boxes that were disguised to look like a normal household object like a book. Crammed inside was various collection instruments that measured various ambient parameters like room temperature and humidity. These boxes were placed in the homes of select self proclaimed recurring abductees and they were supposed to journal about their abduction experiences during the project collection phase. The data collected was supposed to be correlated with the journals to see if at the time an abductee allegedly had an abduction experience, if there were any changes to their ambient environment. I found a statistician who was willing to crunch the data and produce a report for a fee but this person backed out at the last moment. I left MUFON before another statistician could be contracted. As far as I know MUFON is still holding this data and could have it analyzed.

Regards,
James

a reply to: mirageman

I think voluntary disclosure is a fallacy ... It is like Lucy holding the football promising Charlie Brown that this will be the year when he can kick it, only to pull it away...

The history of disclosure is full of empty promises ... all of those Ufologists that cultivated inside sources and expected to be the chosen ones as the conduits of disclosure are still waiting or have long since passed...

Disclosure will only happen when the Government's hand is forced....it is why I ask in my book for my readers to send the book to their representatives in Washington... A congressional investigation into the 1947 US Joint Chiefs of Staff creating a modern myth will not be so easy to explain away as long as the original classified records still exist... they are very specific, consisting of 1946-47 deception plans created by Joint Security Control and operationalized by the War Department's Plans and Operations Division, and the records of the 1947 - 1952 Joint Counterintelligence Center (JCIC) that the CIA has the records for. BTW, I have a FOIA request to the CIA for the JCIC records, and two years after submitting it, I am still waiting for an answer.

a reply to: karl 12

I have never been approached by the CIA, the NSA, you name a three letter agency... EVER! Not while MUFON International Director and not after. You don't get invited to the dance, if you are not willing to dance....

a reply to: jamescarrion

Thanks for making your book available for free, that tells me a lot about your motivations. I'm only part way through but I think this is the most plausible explanation I've heard so far. I had abandoned the ET theory of Roswell probably 20 years ago but I wasn't sure how to explain it. So far, this seems like it will bring it together quite well. I've always wondered about the way the flying saucer story was allowed to come out in the paper and then almost immediately it was retracted and explained officially as a balloon. I always felt like the original press release could not have been an accident nor could it have just slipped out. It had to have been ordered, but I couldn't make sense of that.

a reply to: jamescarrion

I agree about disclosure. I am not even sure there is much to disclose. I dare say there are certain secrets locked away but not the story popular culture has portrayed.

....it is why I ask in my book for my readers to send the book to their representatives in Washington... A congressional investigation into the 1947 US Joint Chiefs of Staff creating a modern myth will not be so easy to explain away as long as the original classified records still exist...

Unfortunately I can't help there as I'm not an American citizen. I do hope some more information is forthcoming with that FOIA request though.

a reply to: wtbengineer

Thanks for your vote of confidence. I would like folks to read the book carefully and with an open mind and to explore the original documentation for themselves.

The book offers a hypothesis and supporting documentation for that hypothesis in the form of original documentation from 1947. The hypothesis is that strategic deception was being perpetrated by the US against the Russians for three specific reasons:

1. To prevent an invasion by the Soviets of Europe
2. To catch Soviet spies in the US
3. To help break the Soviet Diplomatic code similar to how the allies broke the German Enigma and the Japanese Purple


There is no smoking gun document from that period that proves the hypothesis. However, the book does document a smoking gun that SOME strategic deception was occurring in that timeframe. This is the Leech-Snodgrass super weapon story that appeared in the press in June of 1947. The two real scientists who worked on the real Top Secret project, alleged in the Press to be more significant than the atomic bomb, claimed it was an ongoing project although the much later declassified Project report (Project Seal) shows conclusively that the Project was killed off in 1945.

Moreover, it was speculated in the Press that this super weapon was an airborne weapon, when in fact it was no such thing. Two weeks after this superweapon story hit the news...we had Kenneth Arnold's famous UFO sighting that kicked off the UFO summer of 1947...and the tie in to what I consider the larger deception hypothesis. How Cold War historians have ignored this super weapon story that incontrovertibly documents strategic deception is incomprehensible to me.

Regards,
James