The Roswell Deception

All of my research on Roswell I conclude it was a Project Mogul balloon.

All the other theories have too many problems

Roswell, though, is a UFO mythological boondoggle that will never go away

originally posted by: Baablacksheep
a reply to: mirageman

So we can never clear away the crap because someone will always refute a tiny point to keep it going. 

So what does one do MM?

🤔

Unfortunately ufology is infected by a 'cult of personalities'. They carve out their territory. They set out their stalls. As long as they can keep their supporters enclosed in a metaphorical box that's fine. But it is dangerous to play around with it.

So some might say it needs outside the box thinking. But that's the wrong answer to the wrong question. What ufolology needs is to screw the box...think outside the straight jacket.

The reason this wont die/solved as NOT an alien crash is the "explanations" from "authorities".
That is every time they attempt "case closed" so many loopholes, errors in basic facts, ect.
People the airforce has done two different "official" reports on roswell.
the latest was "roswell case closed " in 1994.
For one example they tried to claim in both reports the "bodies" found were really dummies from programs to test parachutes, high altitude ejections, and other such things (sorry in advance if I didnt get exact experiments or number right).
when checked into the dates of such tests ranged from few years past to DECADE plus AFTER the roswell incident.
so little hard to claim it was found by residence at the time.
then they claimed in first and second report the "symbols" were from some tape that they happened to get from a store to hold together the "balloons" from weather , to radar reflectors, to project mogul (notice that the projects changed from each report) .
but they until VERY RECENTLY didnt reveal any details, ads, or even exactly what they looked like.
In fact that detail NO ONE can produce a picture or sample of said "just picked up from a store" tape.
hell 3m (one of the biggest adhesive / adhesive products company) can produce examples of about every product they ever made. With pride no less.

now notice every "report" and "evidence" revealed by the government comes out is not only trying to fill the errors of the previous ones, but the time of them is at an interval that seems "by random coincidence" to happen as more of the first hand witnesses die , as memories fade and as "evidence" seems to be unavailable or disappear.

now before you say I am being conspiratorial look at this one odd fact.
In 1997 a high ranking officer in military intelligence william corso publishes a book "the day after roswell"
in it (to those that dont know) he tells how he was tasked with getting the tech recovered from the roswell crash into the hands of companies and researchers.
the government mocked him and tried to destroy his reputation.

but then when his claims were being researched it was revealed by a report in 2007 that the navy had inappropriately/accidentally destroyed decades (1950ish though 1970 or possibly more) of research by the office of naval research.

add to that when people try to research units "allegedly" involved in incidents like roswell, Kecksburg PA and others they have been "lost", unable to find, destroyed (deliberately or accidentally) ect.

I know the government cant give a straight answer and hopes it can bury the evidence when it wants to.

but IF it were a project mogul ballon then why well after the tech and program is no longer need of secrecy did they say this in the 1994 report "case closed"

"In the July 1994 Report of Air Force Research Regarding the Roswell Incident, the Air Force did not dispute that something happened near Roswell, but reported that the most likely source of the wreckage was from the balloon-launched classified government project designed to determine the state of Soviet nuclear weapons research. "

Most likely?
not "we confirm it was and it was number (ex) 15 of all the flights"
LIke I said the russians by now know and probably have examples of it.
the tech is DECADES obsolete

Lastly we know damn near every detail and specs on the U2 spy missions over russia (along with the specs on the U2 itself) than the "project mogul" balloon they still claim roswell is.

Im sorry but if they cannot come clean with CLEAR FACTS, EVIDENCE and details by now , given all the attempts at "case closed reports" still have glaring holes , then how can anyone reasonably say that roswell could not possibly be of extraterrestrial nature with government cover up?

Scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

Provably to continue the myth, but I agree the change in story 3 or 4 times is frustrating, but makes sense if you want to use such a narrative in the future.

There are lots of intelligence officers thay pop up in most big ufo cases and Roswell is no different. I am not slandering Marcel here, just stating known fact. He WAS an intelligence officer at a base where the only nuclear bomber squadron in the world was based.

Hmmm..intelligence officers...nukes.. Bit of a pattern there.

As I said before, expecting a straight answer from source of the deception is akin to getting a direct answer from a politician..

a reply to: pigsy2400

You have to remember the military and especially back then their oath to secrecy and saying what they want you to say.

For example my buddy was a SP for the sr71 blackbird base.
even today being out of the military for over 20 plus years if he EVER told me what the classified top speed of that plane is (and when not if the government found out) we both "disappear" in a federal prison faster than a pizza goes at a weight watchers convention .

back in the day of roswell the idea of being livingly deficient if you violated the military was even more a very real possibility.



Why do you think alot of witnesses come forth when they are near their end of life to tell what they know?

As one person (wish I could remember who among many famous ufo military and civilian whisleblowers) said
"im old and dying....what are they gonna do to me".

Hell on deathbed or anytime of their lives civilians , military, pilots, Law enforcement and everyone inbetween if one gives credible UFO reports they are mocked, marginalized, and in short any/every attempt to destroy them.

but just in marcell case.

If he is an honorable man who served honorably (there is no records to the contrary and his security clearance is proof of this) then he would tell the truth if given the opportunity.

remember IF it were project mogul that he found he would have ZERO reason not to claim even later in life that is what he found

as I stated before ANY INFO on this project has long passed any reasonable reason to stay secret.
he would have just given more detail (due to declassification) on it to debunk the roswell story.

But note HE DIDNT.

the government could have released all details on project mogul , when flights were launched , ect LIKE THEY DID WITH THE U2 AND SR71 .

they didnt.

so while it cannot be definitely proved it was a UFO crash with bodies.

the continued bad lies, the continued lack of releasing/declassifying project mogul, and the fact most evidence is "missing" , "accidentally destroyed" and/or "cannot find any records".

if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck... you cant say it defiantly it isnt a duck

scrounger

the goal of ATS is "deny ignorance"
so taking this in mind lets take a step back and look at this logically.

lets just say (for sake of discussion) it was from the highly classified "project mogul" that was found in roswell.

It is logical to presume that the army air corps (it wasnt the airforce yet) and the government would want to keep it secret and if necessary intimidate witnesses (be civilian or military) to keep quiet about it.

when the first "report" came out trying to debunk roswell they REALLY didnt need to do it but I can see since they did I can see some logic (given it was maybe 10 or so years cant remember exact date) of trying to do a coverup since it could still have classified material still reliant.

Now by the 1997 , 40 YEARS after roswell incident ANYTHING ABOUT IT would hold ZERO technical or classified relevance due to obsolete tech and the russians (the ones you really want to keep it secret from) ALREADY KNOW about it if not have a few lying around they studied.

add to it the U2 (1955), the sr71 (1966) with overflight and tech that could look 200+miles into russia at the boarder, and the various advance satellites more advanced and better (in alot but not all aspects) than previous two.

So the report "case closed" that came out in 1997 would have NO REASON to hide a damn thing and could tell the complete truth (including dates, times, pictures, schematics , movies, ect) like a history channel special.

to put this into further perspective the U2 came out in 1955 and in 1993 ben richards wrote the book "the skunk works" that gave all details on the U2 (from construction, missions and tech) , the sr 71 (some things like top ceiling and top speed secret) , along with the f117 steath fighter.
that is 28 years, 18, and less than 10 years respectfully.

so if one is detached and honest the fact the more advanced and secret tech that replaced project mogul we have everything (u2) and most everything (sr71 and steath fighter) but we STILL DONT HAVE COMPLETE HONEST HARD FACTS from project mogul that roswell is supposed to be about?

the report is so full of holes , easily disproved facts , and most records "missing, destroyed, and unavailable" 40 YEARS after the fact?

seems the government is saying "we lied" but "trust us this is the truth" ..... we dont need facts.

Scrounger

Nobody really believed aliens existed, before Roswell came along.

Then, aliens were abducting humans, too!!


Aliens were seen above us, performing spectacular light shows!!


Pretend aliens are well known by leaders, who keep it all top secret!


The people will demand to know about aliens, it's time for 'disclosure'!!....



Crap sells, if it's piled up, again and again, over the years..

One thing's for sure.

There are parties who desperately want to deflate the extraterrestrial angle in the story.

Im sorry but if they cannot come clean with CLEAR FACTS, EVIDENCE and details by now , given all the attempts at "case closed reports" still have glaring holes , then how can anyone reasonably say that roswell could not possibly be of extraterrestrial nature with government cover up?

Have you read the free book that this thread is about?

The book is about an overall deception plan that began in 1946 to fool the Soviets into believing the the US & Allies were testing various weapons in secret. There are over 700 sourced articles and documents from the time. The author purposely rejected anecdotal testimony 30-50 years after the incident because, people can be mistaken, get confused, are often prone to exaggeration and sometimes will tell lies. Some witness like Frank Kaufmann and Dennis were proven to have lied.

The book explains that in the specific time period relating to the Kenneth Arnold - Roswell incidents that "Flying Disc" stories were being seeded into the public consciousness. Various methods including balloons & props launched from aircraft were used. The graphic below illustrates how reports peak around the time of the Roswell story hitting the news wires and then drop off dramatically again.


Source (Report on 1947 Bloecher)

You also have to remember that there was no UFO/Flying Saucer mythology like we have 70 years later. These were literally just sightings of flying discs that were being reported. The US wanted these reports to end up in Moscow and the Soviet intelligence services to join dots and believe that the discs were part of a new secret weapons project. However the collateral damage from it all was paranoia with many people convinced these were alien spacecraft.

So the deception plan has never been revealed to this day and that's why there are no straight answers.

As for Roswell being extra-terrestrial in nature, then the author James Carrion finds no evidence for it.

a reply to: reject

That is because the author finds no hard evidence for ET at Roswell. Even star witness Jesse Marcel never spoke about aliens.

In fact there is a good case that the alien mythology is a creation of the US intelligence services to cover other more down to Earth 'activities'. Creating an endless loop where believers in the alien mythology constantly seek confirmation of a false truth from the very source that made up these stories.

It is one of two methods everyone will accept being implanted with a chip. AI is the second method, most likely.


Aliens will be on Earth, and look like humans, and want Earth for themselves. They will show 'aliens' killing humans, all over Earth. All humans must be chipped, to sift out the alien cabal, at once! Anyone who refuses the chip is obviously an alien, or alien sympathizer! Hunt them down, for your own safety, and we will do the rest, afterwards. And we thank you for your service, we're all very proud of you, and your great act of bravery!

I've not read "The Roswell Deception" yet, just scanned bits of it, but I did read Carrion's "Anachronism," which lays its foundation. The premise that early UFO sightings were military deceptions does not persuade me, but I'm fascinated at the possibility that it provided the inspiration cover stories when they wanted to deny involvement in spy balloons and planes.

The question to me is: Did the US actively engage in deception by seeding false reports or even hoaxing UFOs as misdirection?

a reply to: mirageman

I know you are just talking about Roswell incident here but you are in some sense putting the idea out there that this may be the reason for all UFO sightings. If you are not, then ok.

Because first sightings pre-date Roswell by many thousands of years. First known UFO documented sighting 1440 BC Lower Egypt.

According to the disputed Tulli Papyrus, the scribes of the pharaoh Thutmose III reported that "fiery disks" were encountered floating over the skies.

For good reading, see the following full list of sightings through the ages.

UFO Sightings List

So we are being visited.

a reply to: BlackProject

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: BlackProject


I read recently, that the same day as the Roswell incident, there was a UFO sighted near Catalina Island. That sighting was also near where the recent Nimitz incident occurred. Interesting at the very least.

thecatalinaislander.com...

Heres a thread I posted on reddit, about the Nimitz incident and Catalina Island.

www.reddit.com...

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: mirageman

Carrion was also suspicious of the Skinwalker Ranch stories given that while he was a MUFON director he was refused permission to conduct his own investigation on the property. So he funded his own trip and found his own witnesses. One had worked at the ranch and was told by a NIDS scientist that rods of metal containing moscovium (element 115) were found at the ranch. He was also told by the previous owners brother than there was no strange activity going on at the ranch before the Shermans sold up. (Something I've also found rather hard to substantiate too).

All one had to do to know Skinwalker was a dud was read that supposed spooky book and you’d read the only one who saw anything weird was the rancher. All those scientist ghost hunters saw was some black figure in the night coming from some kind of hole.


Carrion was bum-rushed by money and power and had to go...as well entertainment.

They saw more than that. They all witnessed strange stuff on the range as far as I know.

originally posted by: turbonium1
Nobody really believed aliens existed, before Roswell came along.

Then, aliens were abducting humans, too!!


Aliens were seen above us, performing spectacular light shows!!


Pretend aliens are well known by leaders, who keep it all top secret!


The people will demand to know about aliens, it's time for 'disclosure'!!....



Crap sells, if it's piled up, again and again, over the years..

Thst is true that there is a lot of crap when it comes to this subject, but it is also true that some ufos defy explanation and need further investigation. Militery sighting alone justify that.

a reply to: mirageman

Roswell was Pure Fiction IMO , No Credible Definitive Evidence of Anything Other than a Rumor Embellished over the Decades with Poetic License . ...........YAWN .

This very well could be true about the Roswell deception. But there is a pattern here. First government said it was a weather balloon. Skeptics agree, no questions ask. Then it was project mogul. Same people agree, no questions asked. And if the government said it was all a deception to deceive Russia, the same people will agree, no questions asked. Can you see the pattern here? It's all to do with belief on both sides, and that's the problem with this subject as a whole

And it is getting in the way of serious ufo investigations.

I see people are missing some critical factors in this particular (roswell) and ufo investigations in general

First

witnesses not being reliable 20, 30, 40 ect years.

we use witnesses in this time frame to convict in a court of law people all the time
war criminals (yes extreme case) , murderers, accidents, military actions, ect .

Second

witnesses coming forward years/decades later.

You have to realize there are LOTS of logical reasons this happens

Fear of mocking and having their lives destroyed.
there is no active investigation so why stick ones neck out
seeing what happens to others.
having nothing to loose at end of life aka "what are they gonna do to me"

and the big one especially in roswell

Military secrecy and threats (especially civilians)

the military take it HIGHLY if someone (ex marcell) who has a security clearance and/or given a DIRECT ORDER not to talk.
you go away suddenly for a long time and not allowed to talk to ANYONE under national security rules/laws (which can and do seem to violate constitutional rights)
this does not include "accidents" that seem to happen to whisleblowers.

Along with if not disappear in prison loosing their job, rank, pensions, and benefits.

why is it so unbelievable they do not talk right away?

Third

Just become some people have been proven wrong or lied does not mean something didnt happen.
UNLESS they were the only two sources/witnesses/facts.

Also specifically in marcell case just because HE didnt say there were alien bodies does not mean the whole thing was not alien crash.
alien bodies was ONE PART of the story.
along with some saw bodies but not wreckage site or handled wreckage.
each and every part of story is judged on EVIDENCE for that part.

just as a criminal investigator may not have seen the body but is witness to say the dna tests.

fourth

this one I will specifically use roswell.

I previously stated I can see why immediately and even 10 or so years after doing a coverup to protect tech, national security, ect.

but the issue isn't what happened that day or first 10 years, but the 40+ years AFTER the incident.

the story has changed 4 TIMES ... weather balloon, secret military project, project mogul, now deception of soviets

each time they claim "this is the truth" with facts that have more holes and proven lies .
Each time they change the story.

the kicker is by roswell case closed report in 1997 ANY TECH OR NATIONAL SECURITY threat is GONE.

As I pointed out the U2 which was technically superior and replaced project mogul (the claim) we had SPECIFIC SPECS on the aircraft, its equipment, its flights, its missions, and even the pilot before and definitely put in ben richards book "the skunk works" published in 1996
that is 28 years after start of U2. it also included info on the sr71 (missions, pilots and some but not all specs) and steath fighter (most development, specs with minimum still secret) and the stealth was ONLY 10 YEARS OLD.

TO DATE we dont have a complete report on project mogul (what they claim it was) . Its specs, its missions, pictures, film, ect.
this project that is claimed to be roswell crash is now OVER 70 YEARS OLD.
hell the report "case closed" said "it is most likely a project mogul mission"....MOST LIKELY?

common.

lets sum this up
most of our most secret spy missions and tech from roswell to say 1980s is well known and open to public viewing.

but TO THIS DAY there is no public viewable facts on roswell crash that is said is project mogul .

the government just says it is XX and we dont have to provide facts.

sorry but to claim it isnt possible its an extraterrestrial craft with possible bodies but project mogul with the evidence available and the lack of it (along with the proven lies, mis information, and repeated changing of the stories) is not logical.

again if the evidence shows it quacks like a duck, it has similarities to a duck, and the multiple changing of what it is (most disproved) then you cant say it isnt possible its a duck

scrounger