More people arrested in the UK over......a Joke.

a reply to: sapien82

and for that to be , we need Injury , Loss , or Harm , where is the injury loss or harm in being grossly offensive, what gets harmed? someones fragile ego ?

Jewish people who suffered genocide at the hands of the Nazis, perhaps?

a reply to: oldcarpy

aye yes a very good point , humans have what some like to call a pain body , but what actual physical harm is that causing to them , memories cant hurt you , your past cannot be used to cause further physical pain !
trauma or PTSD are very real yes and there is no doubt that triggering a Stress response for someone suffering PTSD would be traumatic , but how many labour camp/ concentration camp surviver's left , would be triggered by that , the worst possible thing that could happen to anyone happened to them , what are words in comparison to that event ?

it could offend them , grossly offend them , but it can do no harm !

a reply to: sapien82

Their families?

a reply to: oldcarpy

again , words do not cause pain , its scientific fact that words can not cause pain ?

even if their families are grossly offended , no one has been physically harmed, suffered pain or lost any material wealth or detriment to their physical body or faculties as a result of "words"

so again , under the hate speech legislation or public order act, in order to convict in court we need injury , loss or harm , and of course the actual crime itself
the crime of offense, or gross offense is apparent , as we have a "victim" telling us so , but there is no evidence of Injury, Loss , or Harm



Funny I was watching monty python last night , where the allies develop a joke so funny it kills , but they had to translate into German so none of the allied troops could understand and therefore not die in laughter when read aloud !

That is how silly this legislation is !

a reply to: sapien82

What about teenage victims of cyber bullying on social media? This has lead to suicides. Is that OK with you?

Monty Python sketch - yes, very funny.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: sapien82

What about teenage victims of cyber bullying on social media? This has lead to suicides. Is that OK with you?

Monty Python sketch - yes, very funny.

I honestly don't know. Bullying is horrible but if it is simply verbal then people need to grow a backbone. Whatever happened to teaching our kids that "sticks and stones may break our bones but names will never hurt us"? Every previous generation in our collective human history would laugh at us today for all of our modern pretensions.

originally posted by: angelchemuel

The bottom line is, this has now brought back memories that people would rather forget. Some have been re-traumatised. There is an ongoing inquiry which is heart rendering.
If these people get prosecuted by the police so be it, if they don't then by the grace of God the actual perpetrators who caused this inferno by allowing the cladding to be put on the building in the first place will be brought to justice and dealt with by the full force of the law.

With all due respect, unless you were there, unless you have first hand experience of how this has affected the local community and people from all over the UK who lost loved ones in that fire in one of the most horrendous ways possible, it matters not whether this video was racist, it matters even less whether it has anything to do with limiting people's freedom of speech, what matters is the profound effect that it has had on the survivors and the emergency responders who attended on that night .....and that is quite simply cruel in the extreme.

Just thought I would reiterate this.

a reply to: oldcarpy

Of course me advocating for changes to hate speech legislaton to bring them in line with logic and reason dont reflect on my opinion on cyber bullying ! I do not condone or think bullying in any form is ok or excusable . As someone who was bullied in primary school I can tell you its not fun, I ended up with my pal who was also bullied by the same person , in a fight , the guy used to fling stones at us on the way home, no idea why , then one day Id had enough and I held him on the ground and repeatedly punched him in the face until he asked me to stop !
I was later friends with that bully throughout highschool and after until one day I learned he committed suicide, he had mental health issues and also ended up in jail.
but again it all ties into the ego and not addressing the primary issue. Bullies bully others because they have suffered and their pain body is lashing out to make them feel better about themselves that is a cycle of pain!

Of course cyber bullying is an issue , of course their words can be hurtful to those who are young
but at the end of the day , all that is being hurt is the ego !
Young people are not that well equipped to deal with peer pressure, bullies etc , or any form of harassment , they have yet to develop that mental faculty of reason which prevents them from reacting through ego to any form of harassment.
Young people are not yet in control of their emotions, however if we were to train them and prepare them for this , then not one single child would be verbally bullied because we would educate them on controlling their emotional states and being present and being aware of their emotional states and then choosing not to identify with their emotions.
Thus disarming the verbal harassment so well known online !
Humans more often than not always have a choice , how to react, how to act , how to respond.
Only those who suffer mental disability are denied the option of choice !

I still think those who cross the line of decency with their free speech deserve as good as they give !
if you act like a # be prepared to face public scrutiny and harassment yourself , act like a dick and be prepared to have someone act upon you!

I do not condone violence or harassment , but if you are willing to go out and provoke then be prepared for the consequences, I do not think that you should be locked up for simply expressing your opinion on any matter!
I also dont agree with violence in terms of revenge , or justice, I also dont agree with people harassing each other , because where does that get anyone ? Anger is like holding onto a burning coal , only you are being burned holding onto it!

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: sapien82

and for that to be , we need Injury , Loss , or Harm , where is the injury loss or harm in being grossly offensive, what gets harmed? someones fragile ego ?

Jewish people who suffered genocide at the hands of the Nazis, perhaps?

just going back to this point again , what is your view then on jewish comedians (and there are a lot of them ) making jokes about the holocaust , compared to a citizen making a joke about the holocaust, or a fascist making a comment about the holocaust !

Does the title "comedian" somehow give them exemption from consequences, or is it their "jewish" status , that does this ?
why is a musician or a film maker allowed to provoke through art, yet a person who doesnt claim to be an artist or a film maker or musician , their opinions are somehow subject to consequences !


and then to bring it back to the OP ,

its only a matter of time before a comedian , makes a joke about grenfell , or a musician that writes a song about it , which is gritty and visceral and true to life , or a film about it by a documentarian !

How is that expression any different than a citizens expression of opinion ?

does some how claiming to be an artist, a comedian or musician give you some sort of magical shield against judgement from society ?

isnt that weird

a reply to: sapien82

There is no difference in law as far as I can tell but perhaps that would give more scope for a "free speech" type defence but dunno really.

originally posted by: sapien82
aye yes a very good point , humans have what some like to call a pain body , but what actual physical harm is that causing to them , memories cant hurt you , your past cannot be used to cause further physical pain !

I think that you are looking at this in a narrow way.

While the type of offensive anti-Semitism and racism in the video may not "harm" anyone physically, it does offend. Furthermore, it reduces the threshold of acceptability and feeds more anti-Semitism and racism. Before you know it that line between being offensive finds expression in discrimination, victimisation and (yes) violence.

The journey of anti-Semitism over the last (say) 150 years is a case study of "harmless words" being turned into violent action. The Holocaust was just one event, but look at the violence meted out to Jews across the Muslim world, in Russia and a bunch of other places.

a reply to: paraphi
Why do people say Islamophobic and not anti-Muslim like anti-Semites? Can the two religions not even reconcile a similar term for their particular suffering of bigotry?
I think all religions are ridiculous and if anyone wants to complain in Britain because I think that then please do, just get the cops to email ATS and I'll hand myself in lol.
...I think we all know what is 'grossly offensive' as interpreted in the digital communications act. Well, I certainly do, and never mind the law, it stops me getting a smack in the face because I don't willfully offend people generally.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
Why do people say Islamophobic and not anti-Muslim like anti-Semites?

Two different things.

Phobias are an irrational fear of something e.g. Islam, whereas being "anti" assumes you know what it is and are just against it, probably for irrational reasons. There may be a fine line here, eh?

The problem with anti-Semitism is the ingrained nature of it and the level of indoctrination and ignorance. Even on ATS I have seen the same-old-same-old anti-Jew/Zionism/Semitism arguments dressed up as intellectual facts.

The recent influx of migrants from the Muslim world into places like Germany has resulted in an increase in anti-Semitism in those places, because people in (most) Muslin countries are basically taught to hate and dehumanise Jews. In the UK a survey of attitudes in the Muslim population showed attitudes to sexuality, gender, and Jews to differ from the (more enlightened) mainstream.

Am I ranting off-topic. I think so. Sorry.

a reply to: paraphi
Haha no, that was an interesting reply
I only ever known one Jew, lovely Israeli guy my age, traveled SE Asia for a couple of months together, he hated some of his government actions, and hated it when we were in the company of other Israelis they would speak Hebrew. He got angry for me one time and told them to stop speaking Hebrew because they could all speak English...it was awkward for a while but got friendly after a couple more beers lol

a reply to: paraphi

that again is another point , the law is basically saying we cant be trusted to hear words , for fear we may act out ?
violently

we are children who cannot be trusted with our own minds
is basically what hate speech laws are !

a slippery slope logical fallacy that if a person says , A , B , or C as a statement of opinion , then this will lead to event X, Y, or Z happening as certainty .

a reply to: sapien82

just to be crontrary - lets look at it from the " other end "

from your post :

a slippery slope logical fallacy that if a person says , A , B , or C as a statement of opinion , then this will lead to event X, Y, or Z happening as certainty .

2 issues here - first - an objection to your use of " as a certainty "

nothing is certain

even when conveying statements of fact :

ie - how many parents / year - tell a child " dont toch that its hot " - and 30 minuites later - are in an A&E or minor injuries clinic - getting the childs burn treated ????

but i digress

if communicating the opinion of meme , A , B or C - fails to provoke action X , Y or Z in ANYONE lisdtening - why do we bother with comunication ?????????????

yup - its an argument from reduction to the absurd

but the point stands - peoples words are EXPECTED to provoke response - and DO in a percent of instancec

a reply to: ignorant_ape

I completely agree, there are no certainties
save for death and taxes!

If nothing is certain why does the law , claim it as such?

hate speech will "certainly" lead to other hate, and more violence etc
but its a fallacy!

the meme of logical fallacy isnt an opinion , its a fact , the hate speech law deals with logical fallacy , that If I was to say something hateful and be tried in court for it, that the reason the law exists is to prevent public disorder and further consequences !

that is just it, our ego's expect responses

if we humans were just a little bit more aware and present, then we would have no need for these laws !
but our system is set up to make sure we arent present or aware, and we just keep working for the machine !

load of bull# !

originally posted by: sapien82
If nothing is certain why does the law , claim it as such?

Laws do not claim that, that's why we have courts, because the laws are made for general situations and the cases must be judged one by one, with some being considered and some not.

During trial, one of the things taken into consideration is the intent of the person and the situation when the act occurred, things do not happen in a void and the circumstances should be weighted during the trial.

if we humans were just a little bit more aware and present, then we would have no need for these laws !
but our system is set up to make sure we arent present or aware, and we just keep working for the machine !

No, our systems are set up the way they are because some people are not, like you say, "present or aware", and other people may use that against them or against other people.

Laws must be generic, so they need to be written in a way that includes all the possibilities, with the particular situations being analysed during the trial.

a reply to: ArMaP

aye that may be the case and it for all intents an purposes appears to work , accept when the law itself , the specific legislation doesnt use logic or reason as its basis and instead relies heavily on subjective opinion and logical fallacy

I was arrested for insulting someone online.

Let me clarify a bit, so at one point i was playing in a game server which i used to go on quite often, this particular time i played i ended up getting abuse like "stop rushing like a retard" etc.. I quit the game for a bit and noticed one of the players in there changed his name to "*my username* is a child rapist".

So some months later i was banned for apparently insulting some players, i think i threw out a few mild insults but not much compared to what else was going on there. I ended up emailing the admin asking him why i was banned, and why he thought it was perfectly acceptable for this other person to still be part of their main donator/admin group, all the while calling me and others child rapists and other horrible insults, with images as proof. He ignored the email and then blocked it.

I continued to enter the server bypassing the ban etc, and started attacking the admin myself with some nasty words, this went on for a while and eventually i got arrested.

The police didn't even know about that other person and what he was saying to me and others, the other person (not the main admin) is also part of a group called "P**** destroying school shooters"

Needless to say i am guessing i was made out a complete laughing stock and i was the one who got punished for it. I am tempted to send proof of what this other person was saying to the police, and i bet nothing will happen to him.