Imagine That You Are an Arab...

That si what I meant by syntax(right word?) I suppose.

When the collective (people) feel the effects from a trauma as 9/11 et al., generalizations come to bear-is it worthy to think deeper? yes, and I would think that most people would tell you what I said above if pressed. Knee-jerk reactions are like late news annoucements saying" Details at eleven". You just don't get the whole story at first.

I HOPE most people don't say that! Personally I do not feel that way. And I can't think of anybody I have had a discussion with on this matter that has admitted to feeling that way. That, indeed, would be true bigotry.

One issue around this, however, DOES concern me and that is about the Islamic religion.

The company I work for is global and has large numbers of employees in just about every country in the world (that doesn't have sanctions or such). Because of this they keep a daily security news page so that any employee anywhere can check to see what is going on around them.

It is not an opinion, but an observation, that on ANY given day, the majority of the alerts read something to this effect:

"islamic militants attacked...(fill in the blank with whatever country you want and whatever target people you want"). And it is a never ending list of those type alerts...globally!

There are muslims killing jews, muslims killing hindus, muslims killing christians, blah blah blah....in:

Afghanistan
Pakistan
Israel
India
Indonesia
Philippines
America
Spain....and the list goes on and on.

And for each of those cases listed, YES, you can say the opposite: jews killing muslims, hindus killing muslims, christians killing muslims...

BUT, the common factor is MUSLIMS. When you apply Occom's Razor it becomes illogical to draw the conclusion that all the peoples of the world are WRONG, and the Muslims are RIGHT...(i.e. that all of this killing is everybody else's fault). It DOES appear logical that the common factor (Islam) may indeed be the contributing factor to all the killing!

So, I do not draw conclusions on Arab peoples, or Muslims. But I have general doubts about what the Islamic religion may be creating.

I wish some one could explain what it is about Islam that causes this apparent propensity for militance and this apparent lack of an ability to co-habit with people of other faiths???

This is a very controversal angle, but nonetheless a reasonable and viable angle to approach it by. For I think that this Islamist ideal of resistance against those that are deemed opressors is often hard for people to cope with. For it is well known that oppression is not wanted or welcomed by any faith or people. Yet it is also known that in the Islamic faith it is often deemed holy or righteous to fight against oppressors. I am not a slave to religious faiths of any kind so I can't speak for the other faiths. However from what I have heard from many Islamic peoples is that oppressors are asking for oppression for themselves and they will get it so as long as they oppress. For the Islamic faith encourages the oppressed to oppress their oppressors.

However, I have often heard otherwise. I hear many muslim peoples saying the exact opposite. I hear them say that any form of oppression no matter the circumstances or the outcomes is forbidden by Allah. So we are stuck with a two sided coin on this issue. It can be quite confusing and menacing to political spectrums when this information is so hard to clarify. Me being a believer in personal attachments to God and not religious ones doesn't let me find these clarifications so easily. So I wish I knew a devout believer in Islam so I could quote or reference them. Cause I think that there are too many contradictions on this issue.

It is hard to sort this matter out so as long as we have these contradictions. I would love to read up on this matter but the fact is that I don't have the time or maybe even the patience to do so. For it is well known that the Koran is only translated by those that Arabic speaking peoples. Those that can do so are those that are in power. Therefore only those in power can bring us the so-called truth that we are looking for. Then again these people in power maybe the very same people who oppress and know not what the true word of God is. Often this is true, especially considering that the House of Saud is one of the largest suppliers of Arabic and English written books on the Koran. When I go to my library they are everywhere. I would never let them tell me anything about virtue or God. For they know not virtue and they know not God. They are oppressors themselves.

So I wish I could speak Arabic so I can find the real and the authentic versions of the Koran. This would be hard for me to do for many factors and reasons. Reasons I will not bore you with now. It may be the time but it is not the place.


So do you read the Koran or do you know anyone who does??? And if so, which versions have you or that person or persons you know read??? And do they speak and or read Arabic???

Let me know.

OH MY GERSH...get OUT OF MY HEAD!

You are voicing the EXACT thoughts I have on this.

1.) YES, it is so contraversial and your stomach starts gurgling when you commit to ask "what's up with the Islamic faith?" Because instantly this programmed PC environment we are living in makes you think...somebody's going to think your a bigot. And I'm NOT. I do not hold any blanket views of the followers of Islam. But just as you stated, there are these endemic discrepancies concerning Islam. So we all don't bring them up for fear some one will call us a "Muslim-hater" and what results is there is this big-a$$ed white elephant sitting in the middle of the room and we can't even see each other because of the elephant!

2.) DITTO on the Koran! I read what you could call the "Koran for Dummies" several years back. It was the "koran-light" if you will But as you stated, it wasn't some sort of "official version"...and how would I know if it was!?!?!

3.) This is the most important part here...where the heck are the Islamic followers on this subject? Christians, Jews, New Agers, WHOEVER, are usually quick to discuss issues with people who have misconceptions of their faith. Most followers of a given faith do NOT want confusion to be allowed to stand and will willingly discuss points of misconception in order to clear them up. But it doesn't seem that way with Muslims. They just throw out..."that's not what the Koran says"...and then walk away! Well, EXCUSE ME, then tell me EXACTLY what it does say. Spend a few minutes trying to clear this up please.

Very confusing indeed.

I know exactly what you mean. Followers of faiths don't always follow their faith to the core when they can't prove that their faith is correct. They resort to escape mechanisms to back their claims up instead of actually backing them up. The thing is, that they really don't know how to back their faith up without resorting to this defense or without quoting the book. I don't think that is the will of a true believer. I think that the book limits their cause to God. For if this books masters them in that way then they are only slaves to a book. They are not really slaves to a faith, or to God. Just a piece of paper or 700. So I don't use these so-called 'books of God' in order to believe. I let myself to the talking.

I don't think that we should have to limit our faith and beliefs to this enslavement. I think that true believers know the word of God and live by it. True believers don't need a book to back up thier beliefs. They should know what is right and what is wrong without having to look in a book. Then again I always forget the fact that most believers want to sit and argue over the history and technicalites of the Bible and other works of religious quotation rather than actually live by those faiths so claim to hold. I take the virtue of the book and run with it. All the other stuff is just mind control and drivel.

(That was a long and over done agreement but nonetheless it was from the heart. We should let this topic get back on track though and keep from making this into what the Bible is and isn't. However we can take this where it goes and where it has gone is into the depths of the meaning of Islam. We must find out from here on what Islam asks of the oppressed. Let us do that.)

Since I am not skilled in Islamic thought I am going to seek out those that are. I have been trying to find those that are over the web, but I have not had any luck in the past 2 or 3 years. So maybe I will take my search further and go to my local Islamic Center in the Valley. Maybe I can recruit some faithfuls there to come join the fight here on ATS. I am sure that they would be welcomed in great numbers and in even greater ways. Please everyone try and bring this community to Light and help those that may See, to bring the Light to others here who can't. Your service will be rewarded in the end. God is watching and he is smiling at those who service him/her in these ways. Thanks.


Love,
Abraham Virtue

don't think that we should have to limit our faith and beliefs to this enslavement. I think that true believers know the word of God and live by it. True believers don't need a book to back up thier beliefs. They should know what is right and what is wrong without having to look in a book. Then again I always forget the fact that most believers want to sit and argue over the history and technicalites of the Bible and other works of religious quotation rather than actually live by those faiths so claim to hold. I take the virtue of the book and run with it. All the other stuff is just mind control and drivel.

But Virtue, true believers get their truths FROM the Book-how do you put away the book and base your faith on something 'in your own mind'?? Do you have that much faith in yourself to expalain the world and your place in it, et alone salvation,death, good and evil if one believes in these?....

..this thread has digressed........

If you don't know anything about Islam why do you spend your time trying to label it as a religion of evil? If you really want to learn about Islam like you say you do then you'd do it. And don't take the American media seriously, they're all ran by Jews and are pro-Israel, anti-Arab.

The Jews have manipulated this entire world to think they're the ones who have suffered during this entire time. They're not the oppressed, they're the oppressors!

And Just because you believe Palestine was never a country gives you no right to say they don't deserve freedom and land. America was never the Europeans but that didnt stop the whites from slaughtering and torturing the Natives now did it.

If that's the case, I'm looking for the day when the Natives rise above the government and begin to retake their land.

And you put quotations on Palestinian as if they were animals or such. "Palestinian"? Your hatred runs deep.

Israel belongs to the Arabs more than Israel belongs to the Jews. The Arabs have more Hebrew than the fake Jews do.

Tangentialism...made that up.

Illimatic, you spout the most ridiculous things sometimes-the Arabs are more Jewish than Jews I bet you say next!

Look what we all need is a definition that sums up what's going on.

Here it is.

Christians kill muslims, christians, jews blah blah.

Jews are killing muslims...

Hindus are killing muslims, christians blah blah.

But only ONE of these groups, has groups within them, that has made it the holy word of god, to kill those who do not believe in their religion.

Muslims.

Not all believe this "holy word" but some do, and they are the only people in the world, killing those of other religions and cultures, to save their own.

They are no different than Nazis, who killed and murdered to save the Germanic Culture.

They should be treated the same.

Different type of war, same enemy....

I don't know what you were trying to ask me, but like I said earlier. I take the virtue from the books and I run with it. I don't need to hear what did what to who and when. So as long as I live and let live and live by that which God preaced then I feel as if I am on the right path. Don't you???


Love,
Abraham Virtue

Originally posted by RobertBurns
Look what we all need is a definition that sums up what's going on.

Here it is.

Christians kill muslims, christians, jews blah blah.

Jews are killing muslims...

Hindus are killing muslims, christians blah blah.

But only ONE of these groups, has groups within them, that has made it the holy word of god, to kill those who do not believe in their religion.

Muslims.

Not all believe this "holy word" but some do, and they are the only people in the world, killing those of other religions and cultures, to save their own.

They are no different than Nazis, who killed and murdered to save the Germanic Culture.

They should be treated the same.

Different type of war, same enemy....

Jews kill have killed others in the name of God in order to save their peoples. So have Hindus and Christians. It is there you just have to look for it. I don't blame you for thinking that way though. Cause today it seems as if the Muslims are the only ones doing such things. For they have factions and terror groups with affiliated sects here and there and all throughout the world. That is true. But it doesn't mean that others like Jews and Hindus haven't done the same. It is just a matter of current affairs. In the past they all did this such thing. That is still true to this day. Yet the Muslims seem to out do the others in that respect in today's world.


Abraham

Originally posted by Abraham Virtue
I don't know what you were trying to ask me, but like I said earlier. I take the virtue from the books and I run with it. I don't need to hear what did what to who and when. So as long as I live and let live and live by that which God preaced then I feel as if I am on the right path. Don't you???


Love,
Abraham Virtue

OK. But some times AV, stories about 'who did what to whom' holds lessons you think?

When Jesus thrashed the moneychangers, this taught a lesson!

I don't know that story but I will agree with your assesment. The story from the Bible or whatever you want to call it that I know best is the story of Abraham's attempt to sacrifice Issac or Ishael what ever you prefer. However the fact that people can't agree peacefully over who it was he was about to kill is just ONE reason I refuse to allow these stories to alter my views on the will of God. Most people can't do that. They must know that their God is in agreement in their beliefs in this or that matter. They alter the history and the will of God to their own perceptions. That to me is silly and even sinful. They should realize that the pyshics of history don't matter in this respect. The only thing that matters is the morals, not anything else.

How do you feel about that???

Abraham

Uh AV, no.

The Hindus have NEVER killed others in the name of their religion to save their "culture". (Not religion, culture, this is what it's all about, the westernization of Islam).

Neither have the Jews ever killed in the name of G-d to destroy other religions.

Not even in the past, for in the pentatuch thou shalt only kill one of another belief if he forced his beliefs on you.

Which is what Muslims do. And something Christians are not clean of either.

Originally posted by Abraham Virtue
I don't know that story but I will agree with your assesment. The story from the Bible or whatever you want to call it that I know best is the story of Abraham's attempt to sacrifice Issac or Ishael what ever you prefer. However the fact that people can't agree peacefully over who it was he was about to kill is just ONE reason I refuse to allow these stories to alter my views on the will of God. Most people can't do that. They must know that their God is in agreement in their beliefs in this or that matter. They alter the history and the will of God to their own perceptions. That to me is silly and even sinful. They should realize that the pyshics of history don't matter in this respect. The only thing that matters is the morals, not anything else.

How do you feel about that???

Abraham

Well AbrahamV, I have felt a few different ways about God/god/religion over the last four decades and have concluded that what I feel may not agree with what you feel and that is that...morals matter, but where do morals come from- are you your own standard to judge by? Do you use another persons? Another cult/religion/or deity?
This is the argument we have daily around the world; my morals may differ from yours and the manner in which I implement them in my life may also differ.

This is a long subject and time is short for me right now!!

Well time is short for me know too. So let us speak of this later. We can remember each other right???

I won't forget you and I am sure you won't forget me. So some other time right????


Your Friend,
Abraham Virtue

Ok Abe V.

Be

Originally posted by Illmatic67


The Jews have manipulated this entire world to think they're the ones who have suffered during this entire time. They're not the oppressed, they're the oppressors!

" Fortunately ", 6 million " oppressors " have been slaughtered between 1935-1945. Isn't it ?

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

Originally posted by Illmatic67


The Jews have manipulated this entire world to think they're the ones who have suffered during this entire time. They're not the oppressed, they're the oppressors!

" Fortunately ", 6 million " oppressors " have been slaughtered between 1935-1945. Isn't it ?

Just a little aclaration for Up, there is 4.5 Million Jews just in israel NOW, how could have been possible to have all over europe 6 million?