Home owner aged 78 arrested under suspicion of murder stabbing intruder UK

The witness said believed the man’s injury was a knife wound.

“People have been talking about a screwdriver but this wasn’t a screwdriver wound, this was a knife. The wound was an inch long.

“I think that it was a knife and I think from what my partner said that the black guy pulled it out and threw it away.

“The man on the ground was wearing a blue t-shirt and it was pulled up. I think he was dead already. His pupils were completely dilated.

home.bt.com...

The dead suspect’s next of kin have been informed and a formal identification is due to take place.

Unfortunately the homeowner may have admitted his knife was a weapon and not an ornament grabbed in the heat of the moment.

Let's all get our excuses straight before this happens to us.

One suggestion on ATS has been to have a picture, nail and hammer all ready for when you finally get around to hanging that picture. In the event of having to use the hammer against a burglar it is just a tool you grabbed instinctively, no forethought.

I found This regarding what you can do in the UK if you are acting in self defence if someone breaks into your home.

might be of interest.

originally posted by: Kester

Let's all get our excuses straight before this happens to us.

One suggestion on ATS has been to have a picture, nail and hammer all ready for when you finally get around to hanging that picture. In the event of having to use the hammer against a burglar it is just a tool you grabbed instinctively, no forethought.

Im literally dumbfounded.....

a reply to: Kester
Massively agree and the word needs to get out!
Something grabbed 'incidentally' is fair enough, but not anything purposefully stored in a place to use as a weopan.
Same with intent, only fear for safety of oneself or other people is legally sound, anger, revenge, no, only fear, and reasonable force.
Too many people # it up for themselves in interview, the Crown Prosecution act strictly on the law and what you said in recorded interview.
It's almost a game to be fair.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Thanks!

a reply to: Kester

If he has used a kitchen knife to defend himself against a armed him intruder then its still most likely to be interpreted as reasonable self-defence and as such he has acted lawfully in the eyes of the CPS.

A lot of this depends on details and we don't know them all.

Sounds like this old boy will be fine though and well done to him for fighting back against scum that rob old folk.

I personally just keep a hammer under the bed.

a reply to: Blaine91555

Arguably, property laws came into existence to protect the belongings of landowners. Poaching and trespassing laws didn't extend to the average person's land in the same way. When they did begin to protect 'society' some have argued that it was for political reasons to keep the peace and deflect dissent.

Ancient Egypt had public courts to settle disputes and so has every other civilised nation from Sumeria to even France. Rule of Law is a requirement for a settled society and necessary for people who own a lot of treasure and land.

My point is I'm not entirely sure our respective laws are really for our benefit. God knows we couldn't live well without the laws, but our contentment is possibly collateral to the 'greater good' which is preserving the security of our betters. It's conspiracy-minded, I know, but it goes some way to making sense of some laws that the majority disagree with or want changing.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
Shocking ain't it.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Good clarification, and matches up with what everyone from the UK side of things has been saying.

How far does protection under law go? If you do something that you believe necessary, that is the best evidence of you acting lawfully and in self defence - even if you use something to hand as a weapon.

What is disproportionate or grossly disproportionate force? The law gives benefit of doubt if actions are disproportionate but made under extreme circumstance. This only applies in self-defence or protecting others.

These are the three points that I believe are at hand here, did he use a weapon? Yes. Was he acting in self defense? Assumed yes, but still under investigation. Was disproportionate force used? The criminal was armed with a deadly weapon, so to my mind being met with an equal item is not disproportionate.

All of this considered, I hope the gentleman is well and things go smoothly for him and he can get back to living his life as normally as possible given the circumstances.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

It pays to be cautious in the eyes of the law.

If you happened to have a knife near your pillow because you'd been 'peeling an apple,' it'd go better than saying you kept a knife there for self-protection. A defence lawyer could argue you were premeditated and create enough doubt to reduce or dismiss charges against a 3am intruder.

a reply to: Kandinsky

I regularly peel kiwi fruit in bed, get my fingers gooey on the laptop sometimes though.

Also found this;

www.cps.gov.uk...

CPS guidlines for self-defence, quite a lot of legal speak but essentially it says that in the case of a homeowner facing a intruder the homeowner has enhanced protection and can use force they deem necessary for self defence at the time, the individual also does not have to wait to be attacked first nor do they have a duty to retreat. There are even some situations where it is reasonable to pursue a individual feeling after trespassing a persons home for a civil arrest.

Actually quite interesting reading.

Only applies to England and Wales though, so I will have to have a look at the Scottish stuff for myself.

My hammer remains under the bed regardless.

a reply to: Hypntick

I recall a few cases a years ago where a homeowner was prosecuted for using force against a home invader, since then the laws and guidelines have been changed.

I was reading about a case last year where a guy set about a home invader with a machete that he kept for self defence and he never faced any jail time.

Reading up on this actually it all seems quite straight forward.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Well we have governments where a small group of people represent us, who create laws not based on what we want, but what they think we need. The elections are actually popularity contests and the only real control we have is deciding who is popular, but with so few in power, we truly have no real choice. Here it's the two party system that holds us hostage and anyone not in one of the parties has no chance, even if they are a better choice.

Smoke and mirrors it seems to me. Let us vote in hand picked people the system already controls, to placate us and make us think we are truly represented. We the People are of course to stupid to be trusted with any real decisions and I truly think those in power believe that is true. They know which shell the object is under in this game.

a reply to: Blaine91555

Well stated.

Ok sorry for the broken up links but am just doing some reading up on this just now.

How likely is prosecution?

There have been very few prosecutions in these circumstances. Between 1990 and 2005 there were 11 prosecutions of people who attacked intruders. Seven of them related to domestic burglaries. One of the cases that was prosecuted involved a man who lay in wait for an intruder and then beat him, threw him into a pit and set him alight.

BBC News

So not very likely that this guy will ever be prosecuted given that since 2005 the laws have been changed to be even more on the side of the homeowner.

Still lying in wait for a intruder and then beating him and putting him in a flaming pit..... bit extreme.

a reply to: Kandinsky

"I swear officer, the flail and morning star are just decorations ripped from my wall"

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Kandinsky

"I swear officer, the flail and morning star are just decorations ripped from my wall"

You say that but there has even been a case in the UK where a couple used a shot-gun to shoot a home intruder and never faced prosecution.

Link

Am guessing the flail would get a pass too.

a reply to: Blaine91555

I will sort it out.
I feel the call of politics. Also the raving mad monster party need new more mad blood.
Mayor 1st MP next pm followed by that then King.
I will rule with an iron fist covered in a rainbow coloured mitten.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Arming sword and shield always at arm's length in my house.
I can imagine the first burglars face when I run down the stairs shouting "for glory!) Swinging my sword and shield with a big metal helmet on. But just my bedtime y fronts on also.
Heck I bet I could face down a battalion of Frenchmen like that also.