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The Rapture of the Church

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posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
jake1997

I beg your pardon
I suggest you research the history of the bible itself and its content before you believe so an outrageous myth.

But occurs will never do such a thing the bible is all you need. The Church has made sure of that, more than the bible to learn your historical facts.

Deny Ignorance.





Well, since we are talking about the meanings of verses in the bible, might I suggest that the bible is the best resource ??

Dasher

To answer your question

God took Noah out before he destroyed the earth

God took the Jews out and destroyed pharoah behind them

Dasher

The Church is the bride of Christ
The church will be raptured ,
Then the Tribulation will start
God will use the trib to turn Israel to Him, and save the ignorant on a world wide scale
At the end of the trib...Christ Will return with ???? Who?
The saints , his bride.
The people who die in the trib or make it to the end that are saved, are the guests at the wedding feast

There is a great page on this
www.tribulationforces.com...

If you read that, and still disagree, please PM me (because it might get lost in here) and tell me what is wrong with it so that I will know. I would rather be corrected then continue being wrong.




posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by Dasher
as a christian, i would have to agree that there is no proof nor evidence in the scriptures of a singular event known as the rapture or even implication of that which is the modern churches interpretation.


I disagree. There are plenty of verses regarding the rapture. Dig deep into the Bible and study word meanings and ask God to show you as you read. I listed some 4 or 5 posts up.

I hope I say this next thought right. I know I'm saved and will live with God forever, but there are many people I know right now who aren't. I want them to escape hell. By not defending the rapture of the church, a disservice is being done to God. If we deny the rapture we are denying an aspect of God, His mercy and grace. During the tribulation period it will be EXTREMELY hard to accept Christ and will mean death for some. The rapture is the way to escape the tribulation and the wrath of the antichrist and even the very end of the tribulation appears to contain the wrath of God also. If we deny the reality of the rapture we are denying a truth that many need to hear. The Bible tells us that God has not appointed christians to wrath. God doesn't want anyone to experience the tribulation so He has provided a way to escape(Luke 21:36). That is a big selling point to get saved and get saved now.

The Jewish wedding ritual is a picture of Christ and the church. A jewish man and woman would beome "engaged" and then he would return and prepare a place(home) for his bride. The man's father would tell his son when he was done and then he would return for his bride and take her to be where he is in their new home.

If we deny the truth of the rapture we have a big problem. Christ came and died for my sin's. I've accepted that and my sin debt has been paid by Jesus. I DON"T have to experience God's punishment for my sin because I believe in the substitutionary death of Christ, and He took my sin upon Himself and became sin for me and bore the wrath of God so that I would never have too.

Now, Jesus told christians in the Bible that He is going to prepare a place for us and that He would come back and receive us to Himself so that we would be with Him. If you deny the rapture we have a problem. Jesus loves me and died for me and is going to return for me, but before He does that, the church(His bride), will be left here for the tribulation period and experience wrath. So without the rapture and especially before the tribulation, we have Jesus saying, "I Love you and am returning for you but, before I come and get you, my bride, the living daylights are going to be beaten out of you during the tribulation period."

There are too many verses in the Bible that teach otherwise.
Those who truly accept Christ WILL escape the wrath to come. Yes there will be christians on earth during the tribulation, but they are not the church. The church is a distinct group God is putting together right now. It began with the one thief on the cross who accepted Christ and has been going on for approx. 2000 years. When that last member of the church comes in then the rapture will happen and then the tribulation comes and then others will be saved but they will begin the assembly of another didtinct group of christians, the tribulation saints.

[edit on 13-2-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Holy Scripture states that the Lord shortened the Great Tribulation for the sake of the elect. Why would this be necessary if they had been raptured away?




This verse you are talking about is a verse regarding the rapture. The elect are those who have accepted Christ, and so for our sake those days of tribulation will be shortened. How are they shortened for our sake? They are shortened by us being taken out and removed from the earth.

The verse you are using to disprove the rapture is actually a verse cionfirming the rapture!



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 03:48 PM
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The concept of Pre-Tribulational "rapture" which was developed by, and popularized by, the Protestants began only about 150-200 years ago.

It holds that the Church will be "raptured" away body and soul into Heaven by Jesus prior to the onset of the Great Tribulation. The Roman Catholic Church has condemned this notion as a falsehood.

Rapture concept has become so complicated that the "believers" do not even understand the meaning of it anymore.

Just like any other prediction in the bible, is bound to be question and analyzed and at the end is just but pure speculative rant of what the church wants their followers to believe.

Have a good day and I hope that your rapture, finds its way to your near future.


I will probably witness alliens landing in my back yard first.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
The concept of Pre-Tribulational "rapture" which was developed by, and popularized by, the Protestants began only about 150-200 years ago.

It holds that the Church will be "raptured" away body and soul into Heaven by Jesus prior to the onset of the Great Tribulation. The Roman Catholic Church has condemned this notion as a falsehood.

Rapture concept has become so complicated that the "believers" do not even understand the meaning of it anymore.

Just like any other prediction in the bible, is bound to be question and analyzed and at the end is just but pure speculative rant of what the church wants their followers to believe.

Have a good day and I hope that your rapture, finds its way to your near future.


I will probably witness alliens landing in my back yard first.


Wrong yet again marge. Again I implore you, if you are going to make statements about the bible's contents, you should learn it first.



One of the arguments most opponents to the Rapture use is that it can't be right as it was a theory developed much later in comparison to other views. They all say that it began around 1830 through the ministry of J.N.Darby. Actually the pretrib rapture position does have historical precedent. A sermon was delivered in AD 373 by the Byzantine leader Pseudo-Ephraem entitled "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World" or "Sermon on the End fo the World". This includes a concept very similar to the pretrib rapture.


Learn more about that here www.tribulationforces.com...



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 04:49 PM
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I have to go with the learned scholars on this one as well as the faithful and traditional ministers I know that consider the revisionism of a pre-tribulation rapture an unfounded and potentially harmful reinterpretation (albeit a sexy bit of marketing).

Hear me now or hear it in hell when you get there
(not really) Tim LayHaye's science fiction and growing following is bordering on a cult (if not occult) of doom-sayers and seekers and his politically influential Council For National Policy is the very den of demise he so elequenty writes about.

It's not the UN you ninnies!
Would the great deciever be so obvious? Would he even be secular or bother to seek those already lost souls? Or would he co-opt the faithful as best he could with lies and deceptions, using His word for his own perverted motives?

Don't worry... you'll be whisked away! Forget about the environment, war, the poor, your fellow man... none of this is important in the great Scheme of things.

All this prideful, new age, mass marketed, televised, capitalized and politicized evangelical fundamentalism of the new "Chosen" is mere Christianism at best. A shadow of the Journey. Perhaps just a little innocent diversion from seeking the Truth. Perhaps not so innocent.

One thing is certain. When any man assures you they personally have all the spiritual answers or know the Truth with a capital T, that person is a liar. Don't believe the hype.

[edit on 13-2-2005 by RANT]



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 04:52 PM
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Rapture is bogus.

One has to realise that many people are working within the Christian movement to deceive and distort the truth. Would it be a surprise to you if I told you that around 40% of americans believe in the rapture and believe that they will be sucked up into heaven before any of this bad stuff happens?

It doesn't help when these so called christian books and movies propergate a lie and pass it off as truth. Have you noticed in the Christian book shops this section that is growing in size now called 'christian fiction' what the!! Fiction is a made up story, a lie.

If you are interested in what the bible says about tribulation, then read the bible, not what someone else tells you it is and certainly not some fiction.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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One thing is certain. When any man assures you they personally have all the spiritual answers or know the Truth with a capital T, that person is a liar. Don't believe the hype.


Especially when he talks about the bible but does not quote scripture to support it.
The scripture for the rapture is shown above.
Take it for what its worth, or simply ignore it



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
The other tidbit, is that according to the good book, only 144000 are to be so saved, and these are all virgin men, descended from the 12 tribes of Israel...so a selective bunch at best it seems...


I recall this to be a choir announcing the seal being broken, but I don't see where it says they'd be the only ones saved. In fact, it makes Jesus' trip here pointless. I know when the mormons stopped by we went round and round about it.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997

One thing is certain. When any man assures you they personally have all the spiritual answers or know the Truth with a capital T, that person is a liar. Don't believe the hype.


Especially when he talks about the bible but does not quote scripture to support it.
The scripture for the rapture is shown above.
Take it for what its worth, or simply ignore it


I actually had you in mind while posting that comment having just read your self professed superior interpretation of biblical scripture regarding the mind of it's authors as relates to the nature of the Earth in another thread.

To "authoritatively" decide the only possible and reasonable interpretation of "integrity" would be...


Originally posted by jake1997
its clear to the reader who has integrity, that the bible teaches a round earth.


While even going so far as to condem others for bias and subjectivity!


Originally posted by jake1997
So you can post what you want and give it your anti-christian bias slant...


My, my, my, my, my...how proud you are of your superior and objective knowledge of the mind of God. Though I didn't feel comfortable sharing my admiration until just now.


To zing me about scripture for saying I among others really don't know as much as we'd like to think we do... Well who better to zing I say? Obviously the man that knows it all.

FYI: I read the scriptures. I read everything you posted. I've even (believe it or not) read them before as these things tend to come up from time to time in places like Church and the Religion course work from college. I've also had this discussion many times prior with respected theologians and scholars, even before I ever had the pleasure of knowing you existed. So it is possible (the wonders astound) to not share your every interpretation and arrive at that personal opinion without reinventing the wheel or defending it with the tedious practice of Internet scripture wars.

And you may take that for what it's worth or simply ignore it.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandtThis means that there is a HUGE amount of people saved during the tribulation. If someone would try to count them it would be a task that a person would have trouble doing.
It doesn't say they would have trouble does it? How high can you count?


It also means that since the tribulation will be the worst time man has ever known on earth, how could an uncountable number be saved. How, because God saves and with God all things are possible.
this statement makes no sense.

Revelation's tale will not happen. It was written at a time between late first and early second century when the churches were in mass disagreement with each other. It was unknown until the second century, an dthe authorship was also unknown and subject of great debate and excluded as being approved text until the third century.

It was obviously written either by one who was anathematized as curse upon the rest, or by some deluded character who had nightmares or serious mental issues.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by dbrandtThis means that there is a HUGE amount of people saved during the tribulation. If someone would try to count them it would be a task that a person would have trouble doing.
It doesn't say they would have trouble does it? How high can you count?


Oh c'mon I think that the point that was trying to be expressed through the bible was that there was a lot. Also imagine what a billion people would look like back then...too many to count. I think that is what was trying to be said not that there is a number that we can not count.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 05:59 PM
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If there were such a thing as the rapture what makes anyone think it should happen now, and not in 200 years or even 10,000?

There have always been people who are convinced that they are living through the "end times", and they have all obviously been wrong. Why is it different now?



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 06:02 PM
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Actually, marg is correct. The concept of tribulation & Rapture is very new--less than 200 years old and the Catholic church has rejected this theory. It actually considers these teachings somewhat dangerous (and as an organization that advocates against condom use, there are the authority on dangerous teachings...)

Catholics pray that "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end" (funny how you still remember these things), but that Second Coming will be that Christ will sit on his glorious throne on Earth for the Last Judgement and divide the good from the evil. That is when the good will go to heaven and the evil will burn in hell, but there will be no Rapturing going on.

www.catholic.com...
www.cuf.org...

Having read the first few "Left Behind" books out of curiosity, I would say that they paint a very black and white picture of good and evil--all things Christian are good and non-believers are evil. I can see how this kind of teaching could become convoluted into a form of bigotry in the name of religion. In an attempt to present the end times in a simple way, the story becomes a very transparent cautionary tale that seems to advocate distrust of non-believers and all things that disagree with Christian teachings.

Instances that are supposed to be displays of compassion and tolerance from the Christians on the "Trib-Force" (ugh... I know, I know) come off as condescencion and lip-service to the few "friendly" non-believers (who are either saved and then die a tragic death, or turn to the dark side and then die a deserved death... )--perhaps because of extremely poor writing and two-dimensional characters, but based on other Christian readings and sermons that I have witnessed, it seems that there is a bit of elitism in the fundamentalist world.

And I have to say, it is quite laughable how this book assumes that even most devout Jews just cast off their beliefs and accept Christ... what is even more laughable is that there are actually American evangelical groups "adopting" Israeli settlements along the West Bank in the hopes that these Chosen people will reclaim Palestinian lands, move an inconveniently placed mosque and rebuild the temple on the Dome of the Rock to fulfill Bible prophesy... Does it surprise you that many of the neocons are evangelicals? Whether you believe in this cra..stuff or not, perhaps they are trying to bring about the end of the world... All I can say is, oy vey...



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Revelation's tale will not happen.


We've both made our choices on this subject. I've found plenty in the Bible to support it. We need to watch what's going on and be aware of things that come to pass.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
The concept of Pre-Tribulational "rapture" which was developed by, and popularized by, the Protestants began only about 150-200 years ago.

The Roman Catholic Church has condemned this notion as a falsehood.

Rapture concept has become so complicated that the "believers" do not even understand the meaning of it anymore.



I just yesterday watched a program that gave quotes from believers in the 2nd century telling of the rapture, so that is simply not true that it was developed 150 yrs ago.

And I've said this before and I'll say it again, the Roman Catholic Church does not represent true christianity and salvation is not found there. I hope that was plain enough. That carries no weight with me that they say it's false. They are the ones who corrupted christianity so of course they are the ones who have hidden and the lost the truth of the rapture. I've given plenty of verses in a previous post affirming the rapture.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
I wrote this several months back. The rapture is Biblical and there are other places talking about it but here is what I wrote several months ago.


posted on 27-7-2004 at 06:38 PM
Pre-trib rapture verses

Someone said that it doesn't matter if the rapture is pre-trib or post-trib. I wholeheartedly disagree. It's pre-trib and you want to escape the tribulation period(it will be the worst time the human race has ever known, worse than what Hitler did and worse the the catastrophe of Noah's flood.) It is going to be hard to be a christian during the tribulation period, it will mean death for some. Plus a strong delusion is going to be sent during the tribulation period. The Bible tells us a "lie" will be told and many will believe this lie.

Someone also said that christians lower themselves to talk to the unsaved to get points to get into heaven. A real christian knows that he is only going to heaven because of what Christ has done for us. You can't do anything to get into heaven aside from faith in Christ. We serve God and as part of our service christians will be rewarded in heaven. The rewards we will receive are for growing in our faith and letting go our our will and listening for the voice of God to direct us. They rewards are for accepting the responsibilities of being a christian and following through on those responsibilities.

Now for the rapture verses:

1. I believe being taken to heaven before the tribulation is one of those rewards. I believe that this is the crown of righteousness that is talked about in 2 Timothy 4:8.


"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."2 Timothy 4:8

What day is described in verse 1.

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

At his appearing, not at some secret "rapture".






2. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 talks about a falling away that will happen. You need to get a concordance for the Bible so you can study seriously. The word used can mean "departing". This is a verse that could and probably does have a dual application. Departing means going away from true christianity and departing can also be christians departing for heaven in the rapture.


It could be a dual application but in reading the verse the meaning is clear.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; "

Anyone who studies scripture should know that Christians do not "go to Heaven, the kingdom of Heaven is coming to Earth.




3. 2 Thess. 2:5-8 Someone is holding back the tribulation period and the appearing of the anti-christ. The only one stronger than satan is God(Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit resides in christians right now and so when He is removed we are removed. God has promised that He would never take His spirit from us, so if He goes we go.



"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


Again, when does this occur?

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: "

At his (Yahushua's) coming.





4. Luke 21:36 talks about a way to escape all the things to come(Jesus just talked about the end times before these verses). The word "escape" has the meaning of vanish which is what will happen in the rapture.


""But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:34-36

What day? I think we have covered this. Also note the words "For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth." he doesn't say it will come upon all except for the elect.





5. Acts 15:14-17 talks about God "taking out" (rapture) a people for His name. Then a "residue" of men will seek after the Lord. Residue means left down or left behind. The left Behind book series is a Biblical concept and the title has Biblical meaning.


"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."



Are you suggesting that only gentiles will be "raptured"?







6. Matthew 24:24 talks about that the "very elect" could be deceived during the trib period, and that would be possible except for one fact, we're gone.


"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

You really have to read into something into it that isn't there to come to your conclusion. Could it be that deceiving the elect is not possible because they are led by the Holy Spirit? Which reason is more likely?

A) The elect has been taken away in a secret rapture, never mentioned in scripture, instead of at the seventh trump as described (1 Corinthians 15:52).

B) The elect can not be deceived because they are led by the Holy Spirit.




7. Jesus in Matthew 16:13 talks about the fact that "the gates of hell shall not PREVAIL against the church" He is building.
7a. Revelation 13:7 says the antichrist will"overcome" the saints during the trib period.
7b. Daniel 7:21 says the saints will be "PREVAILED" against.
7c. Romans 11:25 talks about blindness on Israel's part toward Christ until the "fulness of the gentiles be come in". Fulness here means completion. Completion of the church.

It appears from these verses in #7 that not all saints will be in the church.



Of course some are already awaiting the 1st resurrection.



8. Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20 Jesus tells us the days are shortened for the elect. We don't have as many days as the rest of the world because the days are shortened(we are raptured out of time into eternity. There are no days in eternity.)
8a. Who are the elect? Colossians 3:12 tells us christians are the elect of God.


"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:22

"And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." Mark 13:20


These verses are plain in meaning and do not require any twisting to understand.





9. Revelation 3:6 tells us that God has made christians to be "kings and priests" unto Himself.
9a. Rev. ch. 2&3 talks about the churches.
9b. Rev. 4:1 has a door in heaven opened and a trumpet blast(see 1Corinthians 15:51-54 to see this trumpet blast is associated with the rapture.)


Yes, the trumpet blast is the final trump and is also associated with Christ's second advent, an event that everyone on earth will witness.



9c. Rev 4:4 and 4:10 talks about 24 elders(they represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles) jewish and gentile believers ie. the church.
9d. Rev. 5:8-10 tells us who the 24 elders are. They are people redeemed from every kindred tongue people and nation who were redeemed by the blood of the "lamb"(Jesus). and they have been made kings and priests unto God. Look back at Rev. 3:6. kings and priests again. The kings and priests(christians) of verse 3:6, talked about in CH. 2&3, raptured in verse 4:1 now seen in verses 4:4 and 4:10 and identified in verses 5:8-10.
9e. These elders are seen again in Rev. 5:14, 7:11, 7:13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4, and every time they are in heaven. Then later in Rev. ch. 19 a door in heaven is opened and Christ returns with the "armies of heaven".


This is your strongest point and one that deserves more time to study.



10. The Old Testament even foretells the rapture in Isaiah 26:20-21 and Isaiah 57:1.


"Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
" Isaiah 26:20-21


How does this support the rapture? Why would we need to shut our doors and hide if we are to be raptured?

Isaiah 57 read in context does not support a pre trib rapture.






11. Rev. 7:9-17 talks of an uncountable number who come out of "great tribulation". and Rev. 20:4 talks of some who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and did not take the mark of the beast. So there will be people who trust Christ in the tribulation period. But there is a difference now is the time to accept Christ and miss the tribulation horrors.
There is plenty of evidence in the Bible for the pre-trib rapture. There are other verses but these are the ones off the top of my head. Anyone and I mean ANYONE can become part of the church and miss the tribulation, but it needs to be done NOW. After that the tribulation comes and it may mean death to be associated with Christ


This false teaching will only cause confusion in the serious times to come.



Steve



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 07:20 PM
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There are quotes that can be ascribed to revelations going back 800 years before the birth of Jesus. It is from the foundation where revelation was borrowed from; the sybilline prophecies. These are books that were highly popular in rome for hundreds of years...from roughly 350 - 545 AD the originals were burned, and scribes hunted down and killed that translated the sybilline books into revelation. You can read the original version of revelation, known as the sybilline books. I am sure it will shock quite a few people. If you are one of them, your faith is in God, not in the Bible written by people with political and financial agendas.

I also find it interesting that Book stores have a section known as Christian fiction. This is a contradiction in terms.


as far as the Rapture itself, Marg is pretty dead on. The bible itself does not mention rapture, although the sybilline books mention a time of tribulation for believers.
The closest description is a analogy to the great flood with Noah, when two people are in the field, and one is taken. this is not the rapture but the speed and power of the flood that occured.

God gives you a brain. Use it. Before all else Jesus was a Learned scholar. that should give an example of how to approach spiritual writings. Be wary, search the truth, do not accept faith blindly.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 07:24 PM
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I just made a post about 15 minutes before yours on the exact some thing regarding the verses in luke and Noah. There isnt many people left that research things like that. The entire chapter 17 of luke is devoted to telling people to be good, or god will kill you all like he did during noahs flood and in solomon. I posted it in some other thread though. Belowtopsecret.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
If there were such a thing as the rapture what makes anyone think it should happen now, and not in 200 years or even 10,000?




You are correct we don't know when the rapture will take place. It could be yet tonight or it could be another 50 years. But that's the whole deal, it is an event that will take place without a warning. You don't want to be here for the things that will happen after that. But let's say the rapture doesn't happen for another 100 years. Even if that's the case everyone meets christ in their lifetime. Physical death is something 1 out of every 1 people experience. So don't dwell on the rapture, dwell on the fact that someday you will stand before the God of the universe. Will He be your Judge or your Savior at that meeting. God lets everyone use there free will to make that decision.



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