The Rapture of the Church

Originally posted by The_Final
I am reading the book series Left Behind and I was thinking about the Rapture and stuff,but does the Bible actually mention that Christ will take up all of his followers before the Tribulation happens? Or is it even mentioned at all because I heard that the idea of the rapture wasn't actually in the bible. I was hoping that someone could clear up a few things on the subject. Thanks.


Thoughts on Rumors-

Please, oh please read it yourself.
This is not being sarcastic, but dominations have 3 interpretations on this, and who is to say they are even right.

If you read it and dont get it, then everything else is someone selling you an opinon or an agenda (if its from a religous leader)

I say this, as asking about the Bible instead of reading it has todays fundamental, evangelical Christians in the political twist they are in now. (Just look at Jesus and realize he was crusified cause he didnt want to fit in and overthrow the Romans and have an earthly kingdom...this is zionist talk...yep, all the way back then.)

So, please read and see what you think...then throw around your speculations.

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by cyraxx


Believe what you want as far as the rapture.......




I used to be a hard core christian, took my whole family and such, after extensive bible study and questioning my old pastor, I read nothing to indicate all of the drama about the rapture. Oh there MIGHT be one....but its not spelled out in plan english in the bible. thats one of many reasons why i'm now a wiccan

what baffles me is that your Pastor did not point you to Matthew 24,
because that chapter pretty much lays it all out in a coherent narrative by the actual (Rebbi?) Jesus during his ministry,

(#: note that this narrative by Jesus, recorded in Matthew, is deemed the authentic & 'verbatum' words & explaination about the 'end-time'.)
(#: this narrative, imho, should be used as a larger, all encompassing Basis to explain the end-times
because, as Jesus said He came to fulfill the previous prophets...
this discourse in Matthew 24 should be looked at as bringing together all those other end-time verses scattered throughout the scriptures in a understanding way.
for all those other references of 'rapture'/caught up/ changed are essentially just "snapshots" of an event, and are subject to an individual preachers' emphasis
and interpetation....& there is how we get a seeming truthful, rationalization that a rapture/catching up/ changing of the whole christian church will happen before the tribulation period.


here's a link to a print version of Matthew 24

Mat 24:1 through Mat 24:14
....explains that all flesh including professed Christians will all have physical travails, and the world will continue in upheaveals & wars, etc

but at Mat 24:15, here is the actual start of the Great Tribulation Period

blueletterbible.org


Matthew
24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which
was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place
(let him that readith understand),

24:16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:

24:17 let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out things
that are in his house:

24:18 and le him that is in the field not return to take his cloak.

24:19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give
suck in those days!

24:20 And pray that your flight not be in the winter, neither on a sabbath:

24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from
the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have
been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

your pastor could have pointed out that there wasn't any Quickening, or Rapture, or being 'caught up' in the clouds, or universal & instantaneous 'changing' of living Christians' or even the Elect prior to the setting up of [Abomination of Desolation] (as spoken by the prophet Daniel).
Jesus himself disclosed that the [Abomination of Desolation] would start in motion the Great Tribulation of the end-time.
and that all flesh including the Elect will experience & suffer through the time period of the great tribulation.

the verses 16-20, are only warning the residents/faithful/ christians to flee from
the Judaea, (to get out of Dodge as it were), those verses don't imply that anyone will get whisked away to safety.
Later in Revelation, we are again warned to "come out of her [Babylon]",
not just those who live in Judaea which is principally todays Israel & west bank & some of Jordan /Lebanon territory...but other faithful residing in other lands that are basically 'evil empires'


if your pastor was diligent enough he/she would have pointed to this verse;

Matthew

24:31 And he shall send forth his angles with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.

and the pastor should have brought forth the emphasis & understanding that in this verse is the event spoken of in other books of scripture, i.e. 'Caught Up in the Clouds' , 'Changed in an Instant'...
this gathering together of the Elect, from the whole earth,(four winds)
from all the time zones (from one end of heaven to another)
is what these 'Rapture' idealistists are placing in an incorrect sequence in the
end-time (70th week of Daniel)...because if you've followed the Chapter,
this gathering of the elect is after the tribulation at the end-time &
at the very beginning of the Millennial Kingdom of the Cosmic 'Christ'


~~~~~~~~~~~~

but there IS one advantage that Christian's/elect have, (if their faith & resolve endure) they will experience only the 6 'Trumpet' tribulations....

all those others who are not "in-Christ"
or that have accepted the 'Mark-of-the-Beast'
will have to suffer all the 3 woes in totality,
the 7 Trumpet tribulations, the 7 bowls of wrath, & the 7 vials

~~And the Mystery of this set up is that the trumpets, bowls, vials
all happen at the same instant, its not like the 7 trumpets sound over a span of 6 months
and then the 7 bowl judgements occur over the next 6 months
and then finally the last 7 vials are poured out over humanity in the last 6 months

?just how can a trumpet tribulation affect only a christian
while a next door neighbor suffers boils
and the further neighbor has his skin disintegrate from their muscles?
?perhaps it's the 'flee' or the 'come out of babylon' prophetic warnings?
that is the clue??


cyraxx, i too follow a pagan path, i'm into shamanism as opposed to any form of christianity, but i sure appreciate intricate & compounded mysteries which this christian eschatology presents to us.
~peace~




[edit on 26-10-2006 by St Udio]

Cyraxx, dAlen (Flyer mentioned):

Terral Original Verses >> “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

-------------------------

Cyraxx >> Believe what you want as far as the rapture... I used to be a hard core Christian, took my whole family and such, after extensive bible study and questioning my old pastor, I read nothing to indicate all of the drama about the rapture. Oh there MIGHT be one....but its not spelled out in plan English in the bible. that’s one of many reasons why I’m now a wiccan.

dAlen >> This is not being sarcastic, but dominations have 3 interpretations on this, and who is to say they are even right. If you read it and don’t get it, then everything else is someone selling you an opinion or an agenda (if its from a religious leader). I say this, as asking about the Bible instead of reading it has today’s fundamental, evangelical Christians in the political twist they are in now.

Both of you are just about as wrong as anyone can be. The verses above are NOT my opinion about anything, but those words represents what the Apostle Paul is teaching the Corinthians and Thessalonians on the topic of our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). How do you guys interpret the words above? How can you sit there in the stench of ignorance and proclaim with a straight face that “after extensive Bible Study and questioning . . . I read NOTHING to indicate all the drama about the rapture”??????????????? Where is there any selling of “an opinion or agenda”???????? Those are not my words above and my commentary is not even present anywhere. Your criticisms are over how GOD is presenting these “Rapture” teachings through the Apostle Paul in His Word!

The simple fact escaping the notice of MANY is this Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) topic itself is connected directly to “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3) in 1Corinthians 15:51. Go and read the definition of “musterion” (Mystery) for yourself: www.antioch.com.sg... . A brief summary says:

musterion primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, NOT THE MYSTERIOUS (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known ONLY BY DIVINE REVELATION, and is made known in a MANNER and AT A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY WHO are ILLUMINED BY HIS SPIRIT. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies KNOWLEDGE WITHHELD; its Scriptural significance is TRUTH REVEALED . . .”. Vines’ Expository Dictionary of NT Words.

In short: God illuminates each individual believer in our gospel to see anything connected to “the mystery” in a MANNER and AT A TIME appointed by GOD HIMSELF. Therefore, this information which is easily visible to ‘some’ members of Christ’s body (the mature = 1Cor. 2:6-8) remains invisible to everyone else, until GOD HIMSELF places His hand upon them to see it. In other words, everything that Paul connects to the “mystery” (Eph. 3:3) is an ATS (abovetopsecret) topic and a majority of members here simply will NEVER see it in this lifetime. While I can see these mystery topics clear as day, there is nothing I can say or do that will move up the “TIME APPOINTED BY GOD” for anyone else to see them. These are mere “interpretation” topics to people like Flyer who think all of these ‘mystery’ topics should be moved down to BTS, because THEY cannot see them and likely will NEVER see them. Therefore, everyone who can see these things (2Pet. 3:14-16) very clearly are called Gnostics and since the blind run the roost here, then the typical ATS member is being held back from seeing them also. This place would be better served by atheists than a herd of ‘professing’ Christians who cannot see the forest for all the trees, because at least unbelievers would not selectively weed out the topics connected to ‘the mystery.’ The travesty here continues . . . and you are God's witnesses . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by St Udio

this gathering together of the Elect, from the whole earth,(four winds)
from all the time zones (from one end of heaven to another)
is what these 'Rapture' idealistists are placing in an incorrect sequence in the
end-time (70th week of Daniel)...because if you've followed the Chapter,
this gathering of the elect is after the tribulation at the end-time &
at the very beginning of the Millennial Kingdom of the Cosmic 'Christ'

If you understood the parable of the fig tree, you would not say such things. Please define Cosmic Christ.....................Jesus or the Antichrist?

i cant define "cosmic" christ. but if you understood the parable of the fig tree you would have realized that it is referring to those who fall off the tree during the tribulation , leaving the tree bare and exposed (adams naughty parts are showing now).

christ is comming for the figs that bare fruit, not those that get shaken off.

Originally posted by NuTroll
i cant define "cosmic" christ. but if you understood the parable of the fig tree you would have realized that it is referring to those who fall off the tree during the tribulation , leaving the tree bare and exposed (adams naughty parts are showing now).

christ is comming for the figs that bare fruit, not those that get shaken off.

Much more to the parable than that.

Originally posted by Terral
In short: God illuminates each individual believer in our gospel to see anything connected to “the mystery” in a MANNER and AT A TIME appointed by GOD HIMSELF. Therefore, this information which is easily visible to ‘some’ members of Christ’s body (the mature = 1Cor. 2:6-8) remains invisible to everyone else, until GOD HIMSELF places His hand upon them to see it. SNIP These are mere “interpretation” topics to people like Flyer who think all of these ‘mystery’ topics should be moved down to BTS, because THEY cannot see them and likely will NEVER see them.

Terral; if you truly believe that God illuminates or reveals things to people only at a time appointed by Him, (as you stated above) why berate those who disagree with you? If it is is not Gods time to move them to accept the beliefs YOU have, why continue to "debate words, definitions.. ect. ad nauseam. You might want to consider
(Acts 18:15) 15 But if it is controversies over speech and names and the law among YOU, YOU yourselves must see to it. I do not wish to be a judge of these things.”
or this

You classify those who believe differently as your adversaries, and in your voluminous responses only drive a deeper wedge between you and them. Paul worked hard to find common ground with people of all different backgrounds and beliefs. Paul’s himself counseled: “Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”—Colossians 4:6.

Implying that Flyer or anyone else who may not agree with you will, "likely never be illuminated by God," is not your place or any one else's place to decide.

I intend no sarcasm or vitreol, but merely calm reflections that you are welcome to consider or reject as you see fit.

God is the King of the Universe.

Would not God's son be cosmic?

God has one son and one daughter(in law).

Sparky, Flyer (mentioned):

Terral Original >> In short: God illuminates each individual believer in our gospel to see anything connected to “the mystery” in a MANNER and AT A TIME appointed by GOD HIMSELF. Therefore, this information which is easily visible to ‘some’ members of Christ’s body (the mature = 1Cor. 2:6-8) remains invisible to everyone else, until GOD HIMSELF places His hand upon them to see it. SNIP These are mere “interpretation” topics to people like Flyer who think all of these ‘mystery’ topics should be moved down to BTS, because THEY cannot see them and likely will NEVER see them.

Sparky’s Reply >> Terral; if you truly believe that God illuminates or reveals things to people only at a time appointed by Him, (as you stated above) why berate those who disagree with you? If it is is not Gods time to move them to accept the beliefs YOU have, why continue to "debate words, definitions.. ect. ad nauseam.

We are here to present our ‘opposing views’ on these topics for the benefit of the unbiased third party readers without regard for convincing our debating opponents of anything. You are attempting to address what appears to be ignorant about my view and manner of presentation. Why ask why? Everyone here represents one member in a massive “one body” (Romans 12:4+5, 1Cor. 12:12-14+20, Eph. 4:4), but only some of us are members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27, Eph. 4:12, Col. 1:24). That means the entire ATS membership is like Jacob and Esau contained by a single womb symbolizing this world. Look inward and you will see a myriad of hosts raising their voices in an attempt to represent the ‘conscience’ of the entire assembly as a whole. Your voice is being raised along with mine in the larger “one body” that is really “two” bodies pretending to be ‘one.’ The third party readers must decide which of us (if either) is truly ‘approved’ (1Cor. 11:19) AND whether or not to incline their ears in either of our directions. Your inner conscience is always pointing you in the right direction, but oftentimes you ignore that small voice and follow the advice of the little guy wearing the horns. Right? We all do. Our third party readers are being given the same opportunities with these voices on the ‘outside’ and we are all judged later down the road (2Cor. 5:10 or Rev. 20:11-15) accordingly. Many of my posts are drafted with these verses in the forefront of my mind:

“I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.” 2Timothy 4:1+2.

“This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith . . .”. Titus 1:13.

“These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let NO ONE disregard you.” Titus 2:15.

In other words, standing upon ‘the truth’ of God’s Word is 50 percent having things ‘rightly divided’ (2Tim. 2:15) and 50 percent reproving, rebuking and exhorting with all authority letting NO ONE disregard you. My statement above (from quote) addresses the ‘musterion’ (mystery = 1Cor. 15:51) aspect of this “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) topic, which only ‘some’ among us will heed to. This explains why some among us see “NO RAPTURE” at all (like Flyer here).

Sparky >> You might want to consider (Acts 18:15) 15 But if it is controversies over speech and names and the law among YOU, YOU yourselves must see to it. I do not wish to be a judge of these things.”

We are examining “Paul’s” teaching of our ‘mystery’ Rapture and a ‘doctrine’ taught in precepts to his Gentile Churches, which is NOT about speech and names and the law. Nobody in Acts 18 (about 52-54 AD) could begin discoursing about the topics of Paul’s “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3), because those facets of the Mystery Jewel were revealed in the Prison Epistles (62 AD+) after the close of Acts. How many of Paul’s Thirteen Canonized Epistles were written prior to Acts 18 in 52 AD? NONE of them. Paul wrote the First Epistle to the Thessalonians from Corinth mentioned right here in Acts 18:8-11 (1.5 years). You are confusing Paul’s refusal to participate in ‘political’ and ‘philosophical’ debates with our call to ‘reprove, rebuke and exhort’ concerning these topics of ‘sound doctrine’ for the church.

Sparky >> “or this” >> You classify those who believe differently as your adversaries, and in your voluminous responses only drive a deeper wedge between you and them. Paul worked hard to find common ground with people of all different backgrounds and beliefs. Paul’s himself counseled: “Let your utterance be always with graciousness, seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.”—Colossians 4:6.

Paul is speaking with reference to ‘outsiders’ (Col. 4:5), as in potential members of Christ’s body hearing the gospel. Those are unconverted individuals yet to inherit the ‘deluding influence’ of 2Thes. 2:11 who have become Satan’s “servants of righteousness” (2Cor. 11:15) through the ‘mystery of iniquity.’ 2Thes. 2:7. You are confusing our warfare with the powers of ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12) within the ‘full armor of God’ (Eph. 6:11-13) with preparing an adequate environment around those ‘hearing’ (Rom. 10:17) the gospel to become members of “Christ’s body” by believing. Paul is speaking as an Evangelist (Eph. 4:11) in your quote above, BUT as a warrior for ‘the truth’ in Ephesians 6. You will find a marked difference in my demeanor towards those asking the right kinds of questions (gracious seasoned with salt) VERSUS those heralding a false message with the intention of leading my brothers and sisters “IN” Christ away with folly. I am not here to placate or play patty cake with those worshipping their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14) seeking to distort the ‘wisdom given him’ to their ‘own destruction’ (2Pet. 3:14-16).

[Continued]

Sparky >> Implying that Flyer or anyone else who may not agree with you will, "likely never be illuminated by God," is not your place or any one else's place to decide.

Our place in these debates is to provide explanations to support ‘our’ interpretations of God’s Word and this just happens to be a ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) topic. What does Scripture say about our adversaries??

“ . . . and with all the deception of wickedness for those who ‘perish’ [see 2Cor. 4:3+4], because they DID NOT receive the love of the truth [see Eph. 1:13+14 = ‘message of truth’] so as to be saved. For THIS REASON God sends upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe WHAT IS FALSE, in order that “THEY ALL may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.” 2Thessalonians 2:10-12.

These verses were drafted in direct context to the “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7), which EXPLAINS “Why” some among us will be shouting “NO RAPTURE” at the top of their lungs, even though Paul clearly teaches the topic in 1Cor. 15:51-53 and 1Thes. 4:13-17. That is what it means to continue believing “WHAT IS FALSE” every step of the way to “JUDGMENT.” Our third party readers and judges in this debate deserve to understand the ‘Biblical’ reasoning behind the disparity among those presenting opposing views on this mystery topic AND understand why some ATS members consent to the notion that Terral is the antichrist. : 0 ) After all, I do NOT subscribe to the Biblical teachings adhered to by those who will certainly continue believing “what is false” all their days! Run along and join them if you like, but my intention is to clearly define the bunkers contained by the positions occupied by THE ENEMY; while distancing my own positions FAR from them all using Scripture. GL in the debates,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

*throws a bag of popcorn in the microwave*. It'll be about 3 minutes until that's done. In the meanwhile, I was wondering if you could expand upon the following:

Originally posted by Terral
After all, I do NOT subscribe to the Biblical teachings adhered to by those who will certainly continue believing “what is false” all their days! Run along and join them if you like, but my intention is to clearly define the bunkers contained by the positions occupied by THE ENEMY; while distancing my own positions FAR from them all using Scripture. GL in the debates,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

I followed ya up to this point and think your posts were very well thought out, reasonable and proofed. But, not exactly sure what you mean by these. Maybe if I asked some basic questions to clarify it for me. Do you believe in scripture? Why or why not? (briefly) And if so, what is being said that is anti-scripture?

The excitement level has jumped to a new level since your posts in my opinion so I have a seat picked out already. Mmmm...popcorn.

[edit on 3-11-2006 by saint4God]

Hi Saint4God, Cyraxx (mentioned):

There is no salutation atop your post, but from the ‘quoted >>’ text I can assume you are addressing me. I see you contributed to this thread back in 2005 when it was started.

Terral Original >> After all, I do NOT subscribe to the Biblical teachings adhered to by those who will certainly continue believing “what is false” all their days! Run along and join them if you like, but my intention is to clearly define the bunkers contained by the positions occupied by THE ENEMY; while distancing my own positions FAR from them all using Scripture. GL in the debates,

Saint >> I followed ya up to this point and think your posts were very well thought out, reasonable and proofed. But, not exactly sure what you mean by these. Maybe if I asked some basic questions to clarify it for me. Do you believe in scripture? Why or why not? (briefly)

Of course. The 66 books of Scripture represent God’s Living and Active (Hebrews 4:12) Word. In other words, our Bible is ‘three witnesses’ of spirit (OT), body (Kingdom NT) and soul (Paul’s Epistles). The Book of Acts is a transitional ‘veil’ standing between the ‘water and blood’ (1John 5:6) witness testimony of our New Testament.



The right hand diagram (Fig. 2) is a ‘living’ representation of the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple having “Our Image” (Gen. 1:26), which just happens to be the ‘image of a man’ (spirit, soul and body = 1Thes. 5:23). The “First Veil” (Fig. 2) represents the division of the physical body from the soul, while the “Second Veil” divides the soul from the man’s spirit. The Old Testament of Scripture (spirit witness) contained the 39 books (13 x 3) in the same image that Adam (3 into 1) possessed Eve (water) and ‘her seed’ (blood) “IN” Him, until the Lord God took them out in Genesis 2:20-22. The same typology is at work with Christ on the cross, as His side was opened to allow the ‘blood and water’ to fall onto the ground. John 19:34. Therefore, just like Eve (water = helper) and her seed (blood = their posterity) were taken from the side of Adam, the two NT witness of Scripture were also taken out of the side of the “3 into the 1” Old Testament. While the Kingdom NT (Prophecy Fulfilled) is the ‘helper’ (water witness like Holy Spirit = Jn 16:7) of the entire Old Testament (reduced to being a spirit witness), Paul’s Epistles teach ‘The Mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) that remained “Hidden IN God” (Eph. 3:9) that shall enlarge to sum up BOTH the OT AND the Kingdom NT; so God is again “all in all” (1Cor. 15:28). Therefore, when I look at Scripture (3 witnesses), then I see things very differently than the typical ATS member.

Saint >> And if so, what is being said that is anti-scripture?

Take your pick! If you see me “quoting >>” anyone to offer rebuttal, then that part of their testimony is deemed ‘anti-scriptural.’

Cyraxx >> I used to be a hard core Christian, took my whole family and such, after extensive bible study and questioning my old pastor, I read nothing to indicate all of the drama about the rapture.

He obviously never read 1Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-17.

Saint >> The excitement level has jumped to a new level since your posts in my opinion so I have a seat picked out already. Mmmm...popcorn.

Heh . . . That is certainly encouraging. I spend years and years on some Boards debating topics from Genesis to Revelation, but some Mods dictate content to such an extent as to ban me from others on day one for even having the gall to present the “Two Gospels*” of the New Testament. At least these guys just move my posts to where few are likely to even read them (5 and counting).

Rapture BTS >> www.belowtopsecret.com...

Gospels* BTS >> www.belowtopsecret.com...

Trinity BTS >> www.belowtopsecret.com...

Eucharist BTS >> www.belowtopsecret.com...

Deity of Christ BTS >> www.belowtopsecret.com...

Obviously everyone here does not share your enthusiasm. Topics like the Rapture, Gospels, Trinity, Eucharist and Deity of Christ get the boot to make room for topics like “Who Killed Malachi Martin, Christian Teenager Shot, Jesus Was Not Black, A Female Pope, Why Do folk believe in Bennie Hinn!, Who’s stolen Christmas,” which represent much more important ‘conspiracy’ topics indeed (Heh). Have you ever posted a New Topic in the very generic BTS “Faith, Spirituality & Theology” Forum? Me neither, but all of my Threads have ended up there (save 1 in 911 Conspiracies) and it is like watching the grass grow. I have been reduced to searching the ATS archives to bring threads under these topic names (posted on 22-10-2006 at 07:35 AM (post id: 2567230) = Page 4) in order to simply post my work in this room. Maybe I should start my “The Mystery” Thread in here just to see what happens. : 0 )

The way these topics are being moved around is a ‘conspiracy’ all by itself. Try to look up a thread on the Rapture topic on the first ten pages of this room and you will see what I mean. The only other one was locked by a super moderator actually debating the topic, until his side ran out of arguments. The eleven Mods at the top of your screen appear to be outstanding representations of neutral judges serving the membership and the topics to the best of their abilities. The problem is with those seated in the lofty positions above them who come in here and use their authority to do whatever suits them at any given moment.

But hey, we are only supposed to point out ‘conspiracies’ about everybody else - right? Heh . . . At the very least my debating opponents must draft their Opening Posts in the knowledge that I will come behind and make the necessary corrections from God’s Living Word. Thanks again,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral


[edit on 3-11-2006 by Terral]

Originally posted by queenannie38
God is the King of the Universe.

Would not God's son be cosmic?

God has one son and one daughter(in law).

of course so! queenannie38

when the mortal Jesus (the Greek version of Yeshua) arose & went to heaven

he immediately became the first born, Son of Man and transformed from a
terrestral/earthly 'Christ' into a 'Cosmic Christ'
but i'm/ we're still talking about the same Jesus...not some other or anti-christ

& that is just one of the many 'mysteries' of the Jesus myth&theology that
intrigues me.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''




2nd part of post: to the general thread readers

i do not really 'see' Rapture as we understand it today, in either of these two historical sources
Ten Signs

Ten Further Things About the Messianic Days

Then again, rumor has it that there are many manuscripts in the Vatican catacombs
destined to remain 'hidden' by the church(s). We have only the few references
in various books of the Bible which tell of something we call, rapture/change/catching up....

The church(s) allowed only the new testament books & texts they wanted,
as to be included in the Bible...
so using the Bible as the only source/ resource is a futile adventure to determine if there is a church rapture. all those other writings, manuscripts, books of early Christians, which were not included in the Bible, should all have equal weight......imho

St. Udio, Queenie:

Queenie Original >> God is the King of the Universe.

Would not God's son be cosmic?

God has one son and one daughter (in law).

St Udio (cracks me up) >> of course so! queenannie38: when the mortal Jesus (the Greek version of Yeshua) arose & went to heaven, he immediately became the first born, Son of Man and transformed from a terrestral/earthly 'Christ' into a 'Cosmic Christ,' but i'm/ we're still talking about the same Jesus...not some other or anti-christ & that is just one of the many 'mysteries' of the Jesus myth&theology that
intrigues me.

Lord – Have – Mercy . . . There is no such thing as any "God’s one daughter-in-law" in Scripture anywhere. That is yet another MYTH (2Tim. 4:4) perpetuated by our resident self proclaimed Queen. The concept that Jesus Christ is a mere man is NOT Scriptural either. What did Christ teach about those born of women?

"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has NOT arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! . . .”. Matthew 11:11.

How many ‘truly’s’ must Christ place before this statement (truly, truly, truly enough?) before you will simply believe Him? Of those born of women there cannot possibly anyone greater than John the Baptist, because he is the incarnation of this entire Universe in one single man sent ‘from God’ (John 1:6).



John the Baptist is the incarnation Figure 3 (heavens, heaven and earth) in one single ‘man.’ Jesus Christ is the incarnation of Figure 2 “found in appearance AS A MAN” (Phil. 2:8). John the Baptist is the incarnation of our father Adam from Genesis 2:7. Jesus Christ is the “Lord God” who formed His “son of God” (Luke 3:38) from the dust of the ground, as the Father (spirit), Son (blood = soul) and Holy Spirit (water = body) depicting the Heavenly “Man” of 1Timothy 2:5 (Christ Jesus). However (my point), The three witnesses (1Jn 5:7+8) of Figure 2 was “The Logos” (John 1:1-3) in the beginning, which finds Him ‘today’ existing as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. While John the Baptist (Adam) has an existence in Figure 1 as a ‘god’ (Ps. 82:6, John 10:34), God’s Word (Christ) is the 'power of God and the wisdom of God' (1Cor. 1:24) at work throughout God’s Entire INFINITE Realm. Please think about that fact very carefully . . .

God called each of us into existence ‘through’ His Living Word (Christ) LONG ago back in Figure 1, before any of us incarnated into Figure 3 again “through” His Incarnate Word. Adam (John the Baptist) was pierced by Satan in God’s Infinite Realm, which the typology between Herod (the devil) and John the Baptist (Adam in God’s Infinite Realm) depicts. Everything in Figure 3 (this universe) in the Invisible (heavens) and Visible (earth) realms shall be restored in full (see uppper right hand corner), which will find Figure 3 entering the side of the Man of Figure 2 (The Word = Christ), until BOTH return into the side of God (= ‘all in all’ = 1Cor. 15:28).

Jesus Christ is the ‘incarnation’ of God’s Living (incarnate) Word that was ‘with Him’ (John 1:2) before anything in this universe (Fig. 3) was called into being (John 1:3). There was never any such thing as a ‘mortal’ Jesus. He incarnated onto this earth in the womb of the woman, as the “Son OF GOD” (Luke 1:35) from the very beginning. God would have come Himself, but He is INFINITE (1Kings 8:27); representing the entire Realm of Figure 1. However, His Only Begotten Son is the ‘glove’ IN whom the fullness of Deity “dwells” (Col. 2:7). That means God’s three witnesses (Rev. 1:8) were “IN Christ” (2Cor. 5:19), even when He formed His ‘only begotten son’ (Adam) from the dust of the ground back in Genesis 2:7. If you will consider those things very carefully in mind’s eye of your heart of hearts, then you will see that all three of the witnesses above (Fig’s 1+2+3) are represented in that moment that Christ (Lord God) blew the breath of life (Gen. 2:7) into the nostrils of Christ’s (He is our Eternal Father = Isa. 9:6) “son of God” (Luke 3:38 = Adam).

St Udio >> 2nd part of post: to the general thread readers. I do not really 'see' Rapture as we understand it today, in either of these two historical sources . . .

Try these two from your New Testament:

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

What does “CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air” mean to St. Udio? GL.

In Christ Jesus (Fig 2 in center) even now,

Terral

The Cosmic Christ is the New Age Antichrist soon to come.



Terral, Here is what I have gotten from your posts so far.

1) You don't know the name of your God?

2) Your drawings don't follow scripture. The DAY OF THE LORD comes after the Great Tribulation as proven by scripture.

3) Adam = John the Baptist = Elijah = Joshua = David = Word of the word = Earth = Adams broken body = Eve = Water = Spirit = heavens = Father.

Have I left out anything out on number 3?, I feel there is more.

Originally posted by Terral
Lord – Have – Mercy . . . There is no such thing as any "God’s one daughter-in-law" in Scripture anywhere. That is yet another MYTH (2Tim. 4:4) perpetuated by our resident self proclaimed Queen. The concept that Jesus Christ is a mere man is NOT Scriptural either. What did Christ teach about those born of women?

"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has NOT arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! . . .”. Matthew 11:11.

How many ‘truly’s’ must Christ place before this statement (truly, truly, truly enough?) before you will simply believe Him? Of those born of women there cannot possibly anyone greater than John the Baptist, because he is the incarnation of this entire Universe in one single man sent ‘from God’ (John 1:6).

I find it interesting that you would take a quote from the Bible and ONLY use a portion of it to support your position.

I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

I guess once we reach Heaven, we're all greater then John the Baptist. Even the lowest of us.

I also find it interesting that one person can call into play their own personal translation (quite literal too) of the Bible and then presume to dictate that translation to everyone else. Hundreds of thousands of scholars have been studying the bible for centuries and have yet to agree on the intent of the words, yet one person can claim to understand things completely and dictate that specific belief to others.

No offence, but this is why I don't trust organized religion. Each person should apply what they need to their own life and live in the best way possible.


For what it's worth, I appreciate the time you've taken to create images and explain things, but for me...it reads like a horribly long math equation and I'm not even sure where it's going. The diagram is nice, but I'm not sure God's Realm can be laid out like a road map of circles.

Interesting stuff though if it didn't make my head hurt. I can actually understand it far better for myself simply by reading the Bible. Then of course, my translation would be incorrect I imagine since it might conflict with yours.

No wonder man has been fighting wars over religion longer then anything else. At least we no longer kill people for not having the same beliefs. Or do we?

I was raised in a fundamental Baptist religion. I have always read and studied the Bible and applied those things which I learned to what I was reading. About eight years ago, I threw out all preconceived notions and opened my mind to the truth. In my studies, I have discovered many things that go against “religious teachings.” One parable I’ve always had a problem with is the one of the Ten Virgins.

Matthew 25: 1-13
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Now I was taught, years ago that the foolish virgins are the Jews, and the wise virgins are the church ( body of believers in Christ). But in my studies, I’ve learned that the Jews in the Old Testament are referred to as God’s (unfaithful) wife. Virgins depict the Bride of Christ which is spotless, without blemish. So the virgins both wish and foolish are Christians.

So what is the difference between the two groups? The wise virgins are prepared for the coming of the Groom, although they do not know the exact time of His arrival. The foolish virgins are unprepared. Oil is used to indicate the Holy Spirit. Those who are full of the Spirit produce the Fruits of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 & 23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Those who are full of the Spirit produce works. The Apostle James, in his epistle, says to not be just hearers of the Word, but doers of the Word because faith without works is dead.

IMHO, although the virgins (the church) fell asleep, when they awoke, the wise virgins were prepared for the return of the Groom. They did not know the exact day or hour, but they knew the approximate timing of His return. The church today is asleep, but will awaken when Jesus calls for us. Who will have oil?

This is direct conflict with La Hayes version in which ALL Christians are raptured. It hints of a multiple rapture, with those who are living selfishly being left behind. It hints at a pre-trib rapture for those who are prepared and watching (or living Spirit filled lives) and a mid-trib rapture (or perhaps 6th seal rapture) for the Christians left behind and a post-trib rapture for the tribulation saints. I’m still studying, but my mind remains open to the Spirit of God to guide me.

Originally posted by Terral
St. Udio, Queenie:

Queenie Original >> God is the King of the Universe.

Would not God's son be cosmic?

God has one son and one daughter (in law).

St Udio (cracks me up) >> of course so! queenannie38: when the mortal Jesus (the Greek version of Yeshua) arose & went to heaven, he immediately became the first born, Son of Man and transformed from a terrestral/earthly 'Christ' into a 'Cosmic Christ,' but i'm/ we're still talking about the same Jesus...not some other or anti-christ & that is just one of the many 'mysteries' of the Jesus myth&theology that
intrigues me.

morning Terral, you choose to to say "Risen Christ" as you've been taught to
I choose to think that 'cosmic Christ' better explains & defines that transition point in the Jesus narrative. [to each their own]

St Udio >> 2nd part of post: to the general thread readers. I do not really 'see' Rapture as we understand it today, in either of these two historical sources . . .

**Note the words;

"...in either of these two historical sources..."

(the 2 linked documents are: Ten Signs, Ten Further Things...Messianic Days)



which are christian related documents other than the books included in the Bible.
And you go on to cite Biblical scriptures....
Which is exactly the tunnel-vision condition I was suggesting should be put aside,
Because IF we broaden our search to include christian manuscripts, books, essays,liturgical or inspired works...we may well get a better understanding of that event or process called rapture, the snatching away as it were.
As I see it, the rapture cannot be resolved because the info available is a [closed set]
If we are limited to a few pertinent verses in the (human decided/voted upon) Books which were ordained Bible worthy...
just what if anything may we find about a rapture of christians or a church in the many other writings by early christians
which were not considered Bible worthy??

What does “CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air” mean to St. Udio? GL.


Terral

it may mean that people, obsessed in the christian mystique may collectively or instinctually
(think schooling fish or flocking birds) suddenly hit a transcendental ephipany...
their heads, mind, intellect swooning as if in severe Vertigo,
or maybe even religious ecstacy like the old 'holy rollers' back in the WV boonies when i was a kid there....

who knows


Oh, Terral, in closing>>> its not St. Udio....its more like [stew-dee-oh] phonetically

Originally posted by darkelf

This is direct conflict with La Hayes version in which ALL Christians are raptured. It hints of a multiple rapture, with those who are living selfishly being left behind. It hints at a pre-trib rapture for those who are prepared and watching (or living Spirit filled lives) and a mid-trib rapture (or perhaps 6th seal rapture) for the Christians left behind and a post-trib rapture for the tribulation saints. I’m still studying, but my mind remains open to the Spirit of God to guide me.

Impressive.....................Let me give you a few things to consider.

The ark was closed 7 days before the flood came. The door was not reopened. God is not interested in those that seek to serve Him because they see the flood.

There is no mid tribulation rapture. Those taken out of great tribulation in Rev 7 are killed. See the 5th seal.

You are on the right path. You might check Luke 21 vs. 24

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The ark was closed 7 days before the flood came.

There is no mid tribulation rapture.

Very good. Little gems like these are so much fun to talk about. We do see foreshadowing throughout the Bible. Moses lifting up the serpant in the dessert, Joshua leading the people out of the wilderness (Jesus and Joshua actually have the same name), Jonah in the whale's belly for 3 days, etc.

I still remain skeptical about a pre-tribulation rapture, but I wouldn't be offended if it were true. I'm all for it actually. Who wants to wait around when all the bad stuff is happening. My only fear is that in assuming that it comes first, we miss the signs that say it isn't happening exactly the way we thought it would.