The Rapture of the Church

In reply to sntx. I still stand by the verses I used to affirm the rapture. The parable of the 10 virgins also is a good example of the rapture. It will be sudden and those who really have accepted Christ will go. The other five virgins had no oil in their lamps(Holy Sprit dwelling in them). Not everyone today who says they are a christian really are. There are many who know of Christ but they haven't surrendered their life to Him.

Originally posted by dbrandt
There is plenty of evidence in the Bible for the pre-trib rapture. There are other verses but these are the ones off the top of my head. Anyone and I mean ANYONE can become part of the church and miss the tribulation, but it needs to be done NOW. After that the tribulation comes and it may mean death to be associated with Christ

There is not plenty of evidence for pre tribulation. On the contrary all the verses point to the rapture occuring after the 70th week begins not before. The only way anyone can make pre trib fit is by allegorizing the scripture, which then of course makes everything else manipulated and confusing.

In revelation to believe in a pre-trib rapture that has been preached heavily for the last 40 years based on individual theories, you cannot read the opening of the 7 seals consecutively. In other words they are opened one after another. After the 6th seal is opened we go to Ch 7. which states,

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” Revelation 7:1-4

Here we see the 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel. Then we have after this :

9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11: And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12: Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 7:9-17

Where did all these people come from that a man cannot number?

14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The reason the pre tribers do not accept this and allegorize the word of God is they fail to understand that God's wrath is not the entire 70th week but the Trumpets and Vials are God's wrath from heaven not that of natural disater and war like we see in the first six seals. After the 6 Seals we see this verse:

17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:17

This of course is saying God's wrath is here as spoken by the prophets of the great day of the Lord. Now after this we see the 144,000 Sealed and a number of saints that no man can number before the throne who have come out of tribulation. Thats not hard to understand but many verses are manipulated and taken out of context in an attempt to make the rapture happen before the 70th week. For instance:

7: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The hour of temptation is not the entire 70th week as many THEORIZE Clearly pointed out in Revelation 6 the saints are all still there until the 6th seal as we see the martyrs when the 5th Seal is opened.

You have to remember when one allegorizes or manipulates scripture to make theories fit several things will happen and is the test for proof:

Confusion
contradiction of other scripture
the verse will not read grammatically correct
the verse will not make sense

Never in history have Christians escaped persecution or martyrdom and no promise has been given that such will occur but rather Jesus said they have persecuted me and they will persecute you. Also this will be the greatest time on earth according to the book of Revelation why anyone would want to escape preaching the gospel during this time is beyond me.

The scriptures of the Bible clearly point out that the rapturo (a man made word) will occur after the 6 Seals are opened and this rendering does not cause one to manipulate, allegorize or make things fit. It is simply accepting literaly and consecutively what is being said.

Wait according to the bible once all of the trumpets have been sounded and the seals opened, then Jesus has his kingdom for a thousand years right? What happens after these thousand years nothing is ever mentioned about that. But come on people if you saw these signs happening to the world I hope that you would truely see what was going on and not try to pass it off with some wierd scientific thing.

That won't be a possibility as scripture says the beast takes over the whole world causing all to receive a mark. For some reason people actually believe this will start this year and culminate in the 2012 planetary ascension year. However thre is not a one world government, we do not share a one world currency and we in America currently would not bow down to a foreign soverign who proclaims himself God.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” Revelation 13:16-18


“And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.” Revelation 13:4-9

But we still have like 7 years to have this all happen. But I have also heard that the whole thing was suppose to happen starting this year (2005) and with the 7 year tribulation end on 2012,well as you can see it hasn't happened yet. I also hate how people are trying to put a certain date to this whole thing.

Originally posted by vincere7

Originally posted by dbrandt


“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” Revelation 7:1-4

Here we see the 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel. Then we have after this :

9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11: And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12: Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 7:9-17

Where did all these people come from that a man cannot number?

14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The reason the pre tribers do not accept this and allegorize the word of God is they fail to understand that God's wrath is not the entire 70th week but the Trumpets and Vials are God's wrath from heaven not that of natural disater and war like we see in the first six seals. After the 6 Seals we see this verse:

17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:17

This of course is saying God's wrath is here as spoken by the prophets of the great day of the Lord. Now after this we see the 144,000 Sealed and a number of saints that no man can number before the throne who have come out of tribulation. Thats not hard to understand but many verses are manipulated and taken out of context in an attempt to make the rapture happen before the 70th week. For instance:

7: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The hour of temptation is not the entire 70th week as many THEORIZE Clearly pointed out in Revelation 6 the saints are all still there until the 6th seal as we see the martyrs when the 5th Seal is opened.

You have to remember when one allegorizes or manipulates scripture to make theories fit several things will happen and is the test for proof:

Confusion
contradiction of other scripture
the verse will not read grammatically correct
the verse will not make sense

Off topic.

I love reading the bible. I hate religion but some of the verses and how it was translated and numbered is pure poetry. Genius, would be the term for the author. There is an inner meaning to some of them. Try erasing those that you may not agree and you become aware of some the true meaning. Weed out the untruths and you will the truths.

Originally posted by Gazrok
One of the most confusing things about Revelation, is the fact that it often jumps around in the sequence of events... However, as many times as I've read it, to me, it seems that the "Rapture" described doesn't happen until after the last trumpet...meaning these folks still have to witness the wrath's effects on others.

The other tidbit, is that according to the good book, only 144000 are to be so saved, and these are all virgin men, descended from the 12 tribes of Israel...so a selective bunch at best it seems...

Weed out the bs. Some of the quotes have been inserted to be inclusive. Hence, the control. Exclusivity sells.

Originally posted by The_FinalOh c'mon I think that the point that was trying to be expressed through the bible was that there was a lot. Also imagine what a billion people would look like back then...too many to count.

Exactly! And that is what you have to take into consideration. If this is a prophecy for the future, that statement would not have been made. It has no problem giving you other fantastically high numbers, does it?

The writer declares he is in tribualtion, what does that tell you? It was designed to be addressed to the 7 churches of that day. Are those 7 churches still the only? The terms used specifically refer to the rifts between the teachings of each as well as directly to certain names circa late 1st early 2nd century causing those rifts. Apollyon, is Apollos, the desciple of Paul's who was subsequently Anathematized. The raging torments you see are events that were happening in Babylon of the day, Rome, such as earthquakes, two fires and the eruption of Vesuvius, decimated several key Roman cities. The latter was not mentioned because it did not come to pass. If you check Peter's epistle, you will find his reference to Babylon. Most of the wording is representative of the now, not the future.

The saints speak asking for vengence, and those saints are specifically those who were martyred. Read the passages and you will understand that and see that such martyring has not existed for centuries, which in 6:11 was still an issue.

There is more, much more that proves the author was recording such events and likely thought it was the end of Rome, even John's eating of the book has a meaning exposed in an early church father's canon acceptance, but those on another day.

It is so unfortunate that so many hold to this doomsday theory as though they cannot wait for it to get here. Then again, maybe it is because you inherently know it won't that you can belabour the point, after all it makes for good discussion, right?

Find the writings of Pliny the Younger, to get an idea of what was described.

I think that is what was trying to be said not that there is a number that we can not count.

Wasn't there like signs and stuff to tell when the tribulation was going to come?

Okay wait- tell me if this senario couldn't happen- let's say there's another terrorist act - then the second Patriot Act goes into effect - right? Bush declares martial law - under the Patriot Act - and we all end up with these cool little national ID cards - right? - you know - plus all the other stuff that goes along with it - but with technology increasing exponentialy (did I spell that right?) - there would be a HUGE black market for counterfit ID cards - right? - Well - when we're under the threat of terrorists or whatever we can't afford to have them running around with fake national ID cards so the government would have to come up with a QUICK and effective method of securing an individual's identity -without fear of counterfiet. How 'bout RFID's! I mean they work - they may or may not have some little GPS transponder thingy on it and hey - it's a little glass capsule full 'o lithium or some toxic stuff (so you don't want to try to get it out)- and all it has is your identification number that coresponds to files containing your info - right?
Bush of course would give us more of that " for us or against us" crap to justify persecuting anyone who doesn't use it.

Now for the scary stuff - somewhere on this site ( I think - I don't think I've ever gone to a different site of this sort so I'm pretty sure - what?) there's an article about some researchers working with prisoners in California and Texas- they were doing these test with this RFID-type thing where they could adjust the prisiners reaction to stimuli and even alter their sleep patterns.

I mean I could be full o' crap but wouldn't that be kinda like the mark?

Originally posted by hooligan13
Wasn't there like signs and stuff to tell when the tribulation was going to come?

Hooligan 13

Yes there are.
FIrst, Israel must become a country again. As you know, Rome literally wiped them off the earth 2000 years ago, and strong empires have owned the land ever since.
Rome, Islam, Ottoman, Mongol, British.

Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isa 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favor have I had mercy on thee.
Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

In 1948 it happened.
God even said it would have through war, and that the land would be a waste land for pretty much 2000 years, but would be fruitfull for israel. It is.

People can scoff at the earthquakes and the murders (45 Million babies murdered since 1973 in the USA alone) and the degeneratiing society everywhere.
They cant....CANT...deny that Israel is a country again.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Originally posted by vincere7
On the contrary all the verses point to the rapture occuring after the 70th week begins not before.

In Revelation the 24 elders found in heaven are the church. These 24 elders represent jewish and gentile believers who have accepted Christ and were taken to heaven before the tribulation. The church is already undergoing persecution, we don't have to wait for the tribulation to find it being persecuted.

Since this started as a question about Lahaye's "Left Behind" series, I thought I'd share this. An interesting paper on some of the driving elements behind LaHaye's revisionism.

www.psychoheresy-aware.org...

It's not a solitary theme. I've read numerous Christian authors expressing grave concerns over "pop culture" Christian "cults of personality" like LaHaye or Dobson (Focus on the Family) and groups like Promise Keepers.

Each using new age psycho-babble (like Rapture lore) to beguile an unknowing cult following on the pretext of scripture. Yet, it's presented so infused and influenced with non-Christian beliefs... suffice to say these guys make the Reverend Sun Myung Moon look like a traditionalist, which of course he insists he is. They all do.

Originally posted by RANTEach using new age psycho-babble (like Rapture lore) to beguile an unknowing cult following on the pretext of scripture. Yet, it's presented so infused and influenced with non-Christian beliefs... suffice to say these guys make the Reverend Sun Myung Moon look like a traditionalist, which of course he insists he is. They all do.

We have another 3.9 years before they realize that 2012, is not the end, and 3.5 years from then to forge their new 'I'm coming to get you' Revelation theory.

I wonder how many such theories there have been in the 1800 years since the repent or burn warning came about? Maybe ATS should have a contest to see whose prediction as to what the next excuse will be, will be closest.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
We have another 3.9 years before they realize that 2012, is not the end, and 3.5 years from then to forge their new 'I'm coming to get you' Revelation theory.

Who said 2012 is when the tribulation climaxes? The rapture is not knowable but the tribulation can be figured out once it starts but you can't set a date for it before it starts. I believe God let us know in the Bible the number of days it would be to give hope to those who will endure it so that they can see an end to the horrible days they are living in.

Originally posted by dbrandtWho said 2012 is when the tribulation climaxes?

ROTFL! Why many of your fellow Christians on this board do. Obviously since you are flabbergasted by that, I must ask, why is it that the one and only true religion cannot find agreement amongst its congregation?

The rapture is not knowable but the tribulation can be figured out once it starts but you can't set a date for it before it starts. I believe God let us know in the Bible the number of days it would be to give hope to those who will endure it so that they can see an end to the horrible days they are living in.

That is a very good argument if you are a mushroom speaking to the toad who hides underneath. It is not knowable because it has been placed there by idiots, who either intended to keep you in perpetual belief, fear and subservience, or because the world did not end with Jesus. And all three are why the gospel now adds one more prophecy of Jesus' coming, because these fools added that in when the prophesy of the OT did not come true. You believe? You believe? You mean you don't know and you guess, is that not correct? and on this belief you preach this nonsense as though it is so.

Well, I have news for you, your beliefs are based on pure reading of Revelation and nothing else that allows you to understand how that book made it into The Bible, and certainly not your understanding of history. You believe because it fills you with fear, and that cloud called fear strips you of the ability to entertain the thought that the book of Revelation has a 200 year history rife with debate. It denies you the insight to investigate this yourself or even research what others tell you, for God forbid you find out that Peter's Apocalypse was accepted long before revelation was, and that Peter's went the way of the doe doe bird save for finding parts of it planted within the gospels.

People today are far smarter than 2,000 years ago, which is why no attempt to write scripture has happened since, we just will not fall for the whole world and all nations only existing between Egypt, Iran and Iraq.

Revelation will not be happening. The God of torment and pain that you so believe in, exists only in your fears.

[edit on 2/14/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by dbrandtWho said 2012 is when the tribulation climaxes?

ROTFL! Why many of your fellow Christians on this board do. Obviously since you are flabbergasted by that, I must ask, why is it that the one and only true religion cannot find agreement amongst its congregation?

The rapture is not knowable but the tribulation can be figured out once it starts but you can't set a date for it before it starts. I believe God let us know in the Bible the number of days it would be to give hope to those who will endure it so that they can see an end to the horrible days they are living in.

That is a very good argument if you are a mushroom speaking to the toad who hides underneath. It is not knowable because it has been placed there by idiots, who either intended to keep you in perpetual belief, fear and subservience, or because the world did not end with Jesus. And all three are why the gospel now adds one more prophecy of Jesus' coming, because these fools added that in when the prophesy of the OT did not come true. You believe? You believe? You mean you don't know and you guess, is that not correct? and on this belief you preach this nonsense as though it is so.

Well, I have news for you, your beliefs are based on pure reading of Revelation and nothing else that allows you to understand how that book made it into The Bible, and certainly not your understanding of history. You believe because it fills you with fear, and that cloud called fear strips you of the ability to entertain the thought that the book of Revelation has a 200 year history rife with debate. It denies you the insight to investigate this yourself or even research what others tell you, for God forbid you find out that Peter's Apocalypse was accepted long before revelation was, and that Peter's went the way of the doe doe bird save for finding parts of it planted within the gospels.

People today are far smarter than 2,000 years ago, which is why no attempt to write scripture has happened since, we just will not fall for the whole world and all nations only existing between Egypt, Iran and Iraq.

Revelation will not be happening. The God of torment and pain that you so believe in, exists only in your fears.

[edit on 2/14/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Actually, YOU are yet another confirmation of scripture and prophecy.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

If you want to learn more about rapture then check out these two articles

www.tribulationforces.com...

www.tribulationforces.com...

If you just want to throw ignorance at christians for the sake of argueing, then dont bother.

There are also two more articles on this page about the PRE-TRIB rapture

www.tribulationforces.com...

Im sure there are many who could care less...but I know there are some who want to know.

Thats my last contribution to this thread .

Originally posted by jake1997
If you want to learn more about rapture then check out these two articles

www.tribulationforces.com...

www.tribulationforces.com...

If you just want to throw ignorance at christians for the sake of argueing, then dont bother.

There are also two more articles on this page about the PRE-TRIB rapture

www.tribulationforces.com...

Im sure there are many who could care less...but I know there are some who want to know.

Thats my last contribution to this thread .

Seriously dude, that is the most cartoonishly non-scholarly community and resource I've ever seen someone trying to pass off as an authority.

Do you understand the concept of Ethos? That the not only should the argument have an emotional appeal (pathos) and be logical (logos), but have some credibility of authority?

Why do those position papers have no author? Why does the site have no profiles of the "great minds" spewing that stuff? It's a conspiracy site! Not exactly a learned or authoritative resource for Christianity.

Look at the non-attributed "position papars" on the Rapture. No authors, but they do cite sources... For example:

Resources:
Are we Living in the End Times? LaHaye and Jenkins, Tyndale House, 1999

So to support the claims of a LaHaye-esque pre-tibulation Rapture, you cite LaHaye.

I mean Trib Force.com??? Why not A-Team or X-Men? What a joke.

But your the real Christian here. We're just throwing around ignorance right? :shk:

There is no such thing as 'The Rapture'. It's just bad
escapist 'theology'. It was invented in the mid 1800's
by people who want an easy way out. God didn't
save the early Christians from the lions, he isn't
going to swoop down and save later day Christians
from later day lions either.

Rapture = invented escapist fantasy from mid 1800's.

Waiting to Be Raptured (This Rock: April 1999)
www.catholic.com...
Dispensationalists believe that any day now God will
raise his people straight up to heaven-literally.
How did this relatively new belief develop?

www.catholic.com...
The Rapture Are you Pre, Mid, or Post?

No Rapture for Rome (This Rock: November 2000)
www.catholic.com...
The mindset of the creators of the wildly popular
Left Behind series of novels.

www.catholic.com...

Recycled Rapture (This Rock: September 2001)www.catholic.com...
A look at the “Left Behind” series