OP/ED: Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela

Originally posted by Gools
You know if there was an ATS award for most ignorant post of the month I think we would have a winner here.

Chavez has won TWO general elections and SIX referendums since he has been in power and has survived a US backed coup.

Yep... that sure makes him a dictator all right.

Then i guess you would have won that award gools, among some other people here...

First of all, Chavez does view catro and several other dictators as friends and "people to look up to". Make no mistake, Chavez wants Venezuela to become a nation like Cuba.

Venezuela to implement Cuban-style anti-corruption system
Venezuelan Executive Vice-President José Vicente Rangel Wednesday met with a Cuban delegation that is to advise the Venezuelan Government to create a commission that is to implement an internal control system to fight corruption in the Venezuelan public administration.

"This system is not hard to design, and implementation requires the willingness of public agencies," said National Superintendent of Internal Audit, Vice-President's Office, Neida Camacho Montenegro.

english.eluniversal.com...

sorry to tell you this but there is more corruption in Cuba after castro took office, but now the corruption helps castro and his supporters, which are few.

The socialist revolution that Chavez has been implementing in Venezuela is the same one that was done in Cuba and other countries which became, or tried to become Communist.

Most Americans and people from the west who are not familiar with the system can't recognize the clues as to what Chavez is doing to his country, and what he wants for the world.

"Long live the socialist revolution! Destiny has been written," Chavez shouted to thousands of flag-waving supporters wearing red shirts, according to The Associated Press.

"That new era has begun," he declared with religious fervor, raising a hand in the air. "We have shown that Venezuela is red! ... No one should fear socialism... Socialism is human. Socialism is love."

www.cnn.com...

Another person who made those very same claims was castro, in fact every Communist nation describes itself as being "socialist and red", but I guess a lot of western people are not smart enough to notice the signs and clues. castro has also been known to claim that Cuba has a democratic system btw, Chavez has learnt quite a few things from his mentor and friend.

Originally posted by Gools
His crime?

Raising taxes on exported oil to pay for education, infrastructure, and medical services. Taking care of his poor and standing up to the wealthy class. Bartering oil with Cuba for medical technology and selling oil to countries other than the US. Wow what a commie MONSTER! Let's nuke him!

.

Okay, as for education and medical services?....

Do you actually know why Chavez had to ask for doctors from Cuba?....

Cuban doctors are paid a mysery.... while Venezuelan doctors...

World: Americas

Venezuelan doctors to strike

Doctors' unions in Venezuela say up to twenty-four thousand doctors in public hospitals across the country will stop work indefinitely from tomorrow for all but emergency cases.

A spokesman said they were protesting at the sacking of more than one-hundred-and-forty doctors from one of the main hospitals in Caracas.

The staff there had been on strike, along with several thousand colleagues at other hospitals in the capital.

The doctors, who earn on average three-hundred dollars a month, want a three-fold increase.

The government, which has cut public spending to try to contain a widening fiscal deficit, says it cannot afford to pay more.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Those "evil Venezuelan doctors"....how dare they ask for better pay?....

Where are all these people who get outraged when countries use the lower paid labor from other countries?....

You think Venezuelan professionals like that Cuban doctors and other professionals are being sent to Venezuela to replace them because in Cuba professionals are paid a mysery?...

both first initiated in June 2005 with the stated aim of constructing, funding, and refurbishing secondary (integrated diagnostic center) and tertiary (hospital) public health care facilities nationwide; and "Mission Miranda, which established a national citizen's militia. Meanwhile, Venezuela's doctors went on strike, protesting the siphoning of public funds from their existing institutions to these new Bolivarian ones, run by Cuban doctors.

en.wikipedia.org...

But really, how much has Chavez helped the poor with his new social programs? and why is it that "the poor from countries like Cuba are being exploited"?....

Take, for example, the Ministry of Planning’s statistics on the weight and stature of children. According to this series, the percentage of underweight newborns and babies who are below the standard height for a newborn actually increased from 8.4 to 8.8 percent since Chávez took office in 1999. Infant mortality and newborn mortality rates have decreased, but their reduction is not dissimilar to that achieved by Venezuela in previous years or by other Latin American countries. Indeed, there is little evidence that the Venezuelan government is even trying to do anything different from its predecessors: The share of social spending in relation to total public spending, currently at 40.6 percent, is almost identical to the level reached during the period of application of free market reforms in 1992-93 (40.1 percent).

Despite these realities, government officials routinely make sweeping claims about the success of their social programs—claims that are commonly taken at face value by international public opinion. Consider, for example, the government’s official declaration of Venezuela as an “illiteracy-free territory” on October 28, 2005, when it announced that the Cuban-designed Misión Robinson literacy program had succeeded in teaching 1.5 million Venezuelans how to read and write in just over two years. Some of the highest-ranking representatives of international bodies and foreign governments, including Spanish president José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero and UNESCO director general Koichiro Matsuura, voiced their recognition and approval of this supposed achievement.

Given the extensive academic literature documenting the very low success rates of large-scale literacy programs, one would have expected a little more skepticism. Even a cursory look at the government’s figures will reveal deep inconsistencies in the official story. For starters, it seems awfully difficult to teach 1.5 million people how to read and write given that, according to the 2001 census, there were only 1.08 million illiterate persons in Venezuela. Indeed, the number of illiterate Venezuelans has never exceeded 1.5 million adults since the nation started collecting statistics in 1936. The government also claimed to have mobilized 1.8 percent of the country’s labor force as paid trainers in the program. The problem is that official employment statistics show no evidence that these trainers were ever employed and official budget figures show no evidence that they were ever paid.

In a recent paper I co-authored with Daniel Ortega and Edward Miguel, I used the raw data files of the Venezuelan National Institute of Statistics’ Household Surveys to estimate literacy rates in Venezuela during the period that the Robinson program was implemented. Our results show no evidence of the dramatic reduction in illiteracy claimed by the Venezuelan government. According to our estimates, in the second half of 2005—the first period after the government declaration regarding the eradication of illiteracy—there were still 1,014,441 illiterate Venezuelans over age 15, only slightly less than the 1,107,793 illiterate people registered during the first half of 2003 (before Robinson began). The statistical analysis carried out in our paper shows that most of this absolute decline in the number of illiterate Venezuelans can be traced to changes in the age structure rather than to any effect of the government’s literacy program.

www.independent.org...

[edit on 10-1-2007 by Muaddib]

BTW, one more thing before i forget, how is it possible that almost half of the population of Venezuela, over 12 million people are employed out of 25 million people, they are the middle class in Venezuela, and these are also supposed to be most of the people who vote, yet according to Chavez and his thugs most people voted to lower their pay and voted for him?...

Why is it that the oposition can gather as many people, if not more, than the supposed pro Chavistas yet supposedly Chavez won the elections without it being rigged?...

and BTW, why is it that Chavez stated in Venezuelan television that even if 90% of the votes were gathered against him he would never resign when the new constitution supposedly says that if around 3 million votes are gathered to take him out of office he has to get out?...

I also have to wonder why Chavez has to threaten people who would vote against him?.... Free coun try you say?.... yeah, right...

[edit on 10-1-2007 by Muaddib]

One more thing that I cannot understand. Some people around here have claimed in the past that according to them apparently "it is only the rich people who are against Chavez"...yet, these same people don't say a word when facts are shown about the protests made against Chavez, such as the over a million march of Venezuelans in 2002 who chanted that Chavez would finally leave, or the more recent gathering of Venezuelans who did not want to vote for Chavez but for his oponent. i guess to these people who make such claims half of the Venezuelan population "must be rich and paid by the U.S. govenrment"...

Anyways, here is a video of what happened in the 2002 protest against Chavez, when pro Chavistas fired upon some of the protesters killing and wounding several of them. You also see later on as the military starts to take over and some of the "pro Chavistas make claims through loud speakers" and then the confrontation when the pro Chavistas start shooting at people, who were filmed by a couple of people yet have never been captured and have never went to prison.

WARNING THERE IS VIOLENCE IN THIS VIDEO, AND YOU WILL SEE SOME PEOPLE WHO GOT SHOT AND DIED DURING THAT DAY!!
video.google.com...

BTW, to those that don't understand Spanish "Chavez afuera" means "Chavez out" or "Chavez get Out"... You can hear some people yelling other things such as "Chavez go to Cuba" and such.

That video also shows the truth to what some people in these same forums have claimed, that most of the people who are against Chavez are white... This video and the ones from the march at the end of 2005 show this claim is nothing but a lie....

One more thing, some around here keep claiming that Venezuela is a free and democratic country, yet during that event in 2002, and other more recent events, several of the tv channels from Venezuela were shut down by the government, and Chavez himself says he doesn't know how long that would be... but some people keep claiming Venezuela is a free country...

If you watch the video you also see that the groups of people shooting towards the protesters, there are some among them who have the "red cap" which is a sign of Chavez's revolutionaries....

[edit on 10-1-2007 by Muaddib]

I want to see what the response of Marg, one of the great supporters of Chavez, is going to be. She is one of the few people in the forums that understands Spanish and can see for herself what the Venezuelan people were saying in that video....

I want to see what new claim she has and other supporters of Chavez that he is fighting for the people....

As I read over this post (not realizing that it's over a year old) I was amused and amazed at the similarity of these accusations against Chavez and current accusations against the current administration of the US. Now, I'm not bashing Bush. What I'm pointing out is the obvious political bias.

It seems if Chavez does something, he's a socialist dictator and deserves our wrath. If Bush does VERY SIMILAR things, it's all for our own good and he's a good president protecting the people and acting in the best interest of his country. Take a look:

Originally posted by djohnsto77
He has packed the courts with supporters and enacted new laws stifling any bad press coverage of his administration by the media.

Sound familiar? Take a look at the new appointments to the Supreme Court. And while there have been no laws limiting news coverage, if you don't know that we're not getting all the news, with birds falling out of the sky and the pending war in Iran, you've got to be living under a rock.

Chavez is also stripping property from wealthy landowners and giving it to squatters, buoying his popularity among the poor.

Perhaps switched around but ... abuse of Eminent Domain, anyone?

Chavez's interest in new military spending is also worrisome.

Although I detest this phrase... 'Nuff said.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Look at what he's doing now, he's wanting the government to take over telecommunications, electrical, and other utility companies,

Who exactly is listening to our telephone conversations and opening our mail??? Who's got their fingers, eyes, ears and noses far into our personal and private business in the name of terrah??
....
And speaking of our business, what business is it of ours how Chavez runs his country, anyway? Who are we to say how all other countries should be run? The people of Venezuela seem to be happy enough (just as many of the people here in the U.S. are fat, dumb and happy as Bush tramples on their rights and spends all their money on a useless war, all the while setting us up for disaster.)

Critics say it is starting to look like old-fashioned totalitarianism by a leader obsessed with power.

Sound familiar?

I really don't see a hell of a lot of difference between what Chavez is doing and what Bush is doing. Perhaps Chavez is being more honest with his people about it. But that's all. Bush is just a lot more covert.

I'm not defending or supporting Chavez. In fact, I think trying to make himself president forever is a huge mistake, but what he does with his own country is none of our business. And I'm just blown away that some of the astute minds here, who see what Chavez is doing as a crime against his people, are the same ones who defend Bush doing the very same things to us! Only with some added corruptness and abuse thrown in... :shk:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
.........
It seems if Chavez does something, he's a socialist dictator and deserves our wrath. If Bush does VERY SIMILAR things, it's all for our own good and he's a good president protecting the people and acting in the best interest of his country. Take a look:

If anyone has any bias it is obviously you.... Show us a peaceful demonstration against Bush where people were killed with shots in the head and in the heart and several people were wounded....

Don't try to degrade what is happening in Venezuela by claiming the same is happening in the U.S.... your claim is nothing but a bogus lie...

You would need to have at least 35 million americans in the streets protesting in order for people like yourself to claim "the same thing is happening".... and you would need to show the Americans who are protesting against president Bush and are getting shot and killed by the police and the military in U.S. streets.......

Take a look a the link i gave to a video of what happened when Venezuelans went to protest against Chavez peacefully....

[edit on 10-1-2007 by Muaddib]

You have voted Benevolent Heretic for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

Well said, BH. I just noticed this thread earlier today and started reading through it. There were times when I was thinking to myself "um.. yeah this is bad! but don't do the same thing?"

And far be it for me to claim that our press is free, when it is owned up by like 7 companies that work together to polarize people into some sort of left/right madness.

I have far too many problems to worry about with my country to even have an hour to start contemplating the actions of an elected leader in Venezuela.

Originally posted by niteboy82
..................
I have far too many problems to worry about with my country to even have an hour to start contemplating the actions of an elected leader in Venezuela.

Then don't respond to this particular thread....

Instead of checking the facts, you want to downplay this....

Sorry if you're confused by me resurrecting a nearly two year old post, but I think the previous content is very relevant to the new facts.

It's a total red herring to say what's going on in Venezuela is anything like what's going on in the U.S.

For example4, BH said something like Bush's constitutional appointments to the Supreme Court to fill vacancies was like Chavez's packing the courts. This couldn't be further from the truth. A fine Democrat from American history taught us what packing the courts means -- keep appointing people and creating new judicial positions (or firing judges and replacing them).



[edit on 1/10/2007 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by niteboy82
..................
I have far too many problems to worry about with my country to even have an hour to start contemplating the actions of an elected leader in Venezuela.

Then don't respond to this particular thread....

Instead of checking the facts, you want to downplay this....

Wow Muaddib. When were you promoted to a staff position here?

That being said the US isn't the topic here. Let's keep to it please.

DJ, people like BH don't like to check the facts, but instead try to make every post into a "let's bash the U.S. and the current administration"....

It is obvious from her response that she hasn't bothered to look at what has been happening in Venezuela as for example what is shown in that link to a video of what happened during the April 11 2002 protest....

People in the U.S. are not being shot in the head by the military or those who back Bush when they protest peacefully, or even when they resort to violence....

The left can't even get more people than the "illegal immigrants" in the U.S. who number 10 million, and who got a low percentage of their people to the streets to protest, yet people like her want to claim is the same as what is happening in Venezuela when you would need at least 35 million americans to get to the streets and protest in order to have a similar percentage of people who protest in Venezuela... not to mention people would have to get shot in the U.S. for peacefully protesting for it to be the same....

She is a lost case DJ, and so are some other people around these forums...

[edit on 10-1-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by intrepid

Wow Muaddib. When were you promoted to a staff position here?

Where did i claim i was intrepid?.....

He is saying he doesn't have time to look at what is happening in Venezuela, so why respond in this thread which is about what is happening in Venezuela?.....

Wow intrepid....so what was your response to me all about?.....

[edit on 10-1-2007 by Muaddib]

Here is again a link to that video i gave earlier.

WARNING AGAIN, THERE ARE PEOPLE SHOWN TO BE SHOT IN THE HEART, THE HEAD AND VIOLENCE IN GENERAL IN THIS VIDEO!!

video.google.com...

Watch that video, even if you don't understand Spanish, and then come back to claim Venezuela is a free democratic country...

The bad stuff starts happening at about 7 minutes in that video, at the beginning you see the amount of people who went to protest against Chavez.


[edit on 10-1-2007 by Muaddib]

So what, the Chavez supporters have nothing to say about that video? What about some of our other members who understand Spanish and have claimed in the past that "Chavez is a good man fighting for the people"?.... I guess ordering the police and soldiers, alongside some thug Chavistas to open fire upon those who demonstrate against Chavez shows that "Venezuela is a free country"....

Tell me, how free are people in a country when thousands of Venezuelans have been fired because they signed a referendum against Chavez?....and then the government reminds the rest of the people with signs like the following.



The above sign translates to "Your vote is secret but your signature is not"....

What a great reminder for anyone who thinks about voting, or signing against Chavez huh?..... A signature can be traced to real people, while a vote "is secret and can be controlled by the Venezuelan government which is now full of Chavistas".

and then the PCP has the balls to claim the following....

THE PCP AND THE REFERENDUM IN VENEZUELA
August, 17th 2004


The confirmation of Hugo Chavez as President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela according to the preliminary official results announced by the Electoral National Council, constitutes a great victory of the patriotic and progressive Venezuelan forces that the PCP greets and salutes with profound joy and solidarity spirit. The fact that the referendum had an enormous turn out and held under conditions of great serenity and democratic transparency strongly underlines the political significance of this huge demonstration of popular support to the democratic process in which Hugo Chavez is the more outstanding personality.

In this moment of great joy for all those who in Venezuela, in Latin America and in the world fight for social progress, against imperialism and for a freer and fairer world, the PCP fraternally salutes the workers and people of Venezuela, the Communist Party of Venezuela, the Movement Fifth Republic and all forces engaged in the defence of sovereignty, in the deepening of democracy and in the social progress of this country.

The PCP alerts against any attempts of the international reaction or of imperialism, to challenge the results of the referendum and to destabilize Venezuela with the purpose of regaining privileges, namely the control of the oil, and to restore the power of a corrupt oligarchy submitted to North-American interests.

Our Party, confirming its solidarity position translated into the presence of a member of the PCP’s Central Committee in Venezuela, warmly greets the workers and the Venezuelan people and wishes them the best in their intervention and struggle for the consolidation and advance of the revolutionary Bolivarian process.

The Secretariat of the CC

www.pcp.pt...

Riiight... is all for the good of the people, including if you have to remind them with threats never to sign a referendum against Chavez... I wonder why the govenrment is afraid of signatures against Chavez from the Venezuelan population?..... And why would the Venezuelan government fire thousands of those Venezuelans who signed a referendum against Chavez?.... Free country you say?....

I have to wonder what the PCP has to say about what happened on April 11 2002.... and how is it that so many Venezuelans still went out to the streets to demonstrate against Chavez in November 2005, and to show support for his oponent, even after all the threats, the massive layoffs of those who signed the referendum against Chavez, and the murder of Venezuelans, who thought they were still in a free country, and were shouting freely in April 11 2002 that they did no want Chavez in office.... Now Venezuelans don't shout their opinions anymore...who would after what happened on April 11 2002?.... but their presence supporting Chavez oponent should be a sign that still many people in Venezuela, if not a majority of those who "have a job and are part of the middle class", the same class Chavez wants to exterminate alongside the entrepreneurs, and yes including the rich people, want Chavez out.... 12 million Venezuelans are part of the "middle class".... 13 million are farmers, and of those 13 million a little bit over 1 million are iliterate.... I wonder how could Chavez win when his opossition is at least the same amount of people as "the poor people in Venezuela"?.....

After seeing thousands of Venezuelans fired from the state oil company after the strike, and thousands more fired after the referendum, ordinary Venezuelans are terrified of voting against the government.

In a recent study to determine how the fear factor influences voters, the Hannah Arndt Foundation polled 1,200 Venezuelans using colored pencils stenciled with political slogans: red, the color of Chavez's MVR party, blue, the color of Rosales's Unity Movement, and neutral. When potential voters believed they were being polled by Chavez's pollsters, 55% said they would vote for Chavez, and 45% opted for Rosales. When others thought they were being polled by Rosales's pollsters, 52% said they would vote for Rosales, and 48% would vote for Chavez. The neutral colored pencil with no political markings gave Chavez only a three point lead, 51% over 49%. Given a three point margin of error, the last result yields a technical tie.

www.venezolano.web.ve...

Since some people around here believe so much in polls, the above should be some interesting information on the opinions of 1,200 voters in Venezuela.

[edit on 12-1-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is slowly turning Venezuela into a socialist dictatorship.

That's more than a little up for debate. Right or wrong he clearly has the mandate of the people. They saved him from a US backed coup attempt not long ago.

[edit on 6-2-2005 by The Vagabond]

Chavez creating a dictatorship is "up for debate"? Well, then perhaps you need to read this article:

(hint) unlimited terms = president for life = dictatorship

Chavez seeks to dump presidential term limits

Chavez to seek unlimited terms

Chavez said he would model his socialist system on the writings of Marx, Lenin and the Bible [EPA]

Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's president, has said he wants to amend the constitution to let presidents seek an indefinite number of consecutive terms.

Chavez, president since 1999, made the comments when he was sworn in for a new six-year term on Wednesday.

There, out of the many sources for this story that I could have used, I quoted al-jazeera so none of you could claim bias.

And BH, let me turn your argument around with this: Now if any of you want to support or defend chavez on this move, then I will claim hypocrisy, since so many of you like to rant that GWB is doing the same thing.

The difference between the two leaders is of course that chavez has actually said he wants permanent power, while GWB never has.


[edit on 1/12/2007 by centurion1211]

The United States doesn't support this man simple enough, I support him, U.S. Special Interest doesn't however. That should be a new department in the U.S. - The United States Special Interest Office with a motto: "Screwing America since before it was born".

Originally posted by Masisoar
The United States doesn't support this man simple enough, I support him, U.S. Special Interest doesn't however. That should be a new department in the U.S. - The United States Special Interest Office with a motto: "Screwing America since before it was born".

Again, another blind supporter...yet have you seen what happened in April 11 2002 to those Venezuelans who protested against Chavez?.... I doubt it, and if you did, then more shame on you.

Chavez is a dictator, whether you people want to admit it or not. It is clear from the things that have been happening in Venezuela since he got in office. None of the things that have been happening in Venezuela is happening in the U.S. President Bush is not seeking "to be in office for ever, or for 30+ years like Chavez has said many times that he wants....

In the U.S. people are not being shot in the head, or in the heart by police officers, the military and or thugs like what has been happening in Venezuela to many of those who protested against Chavez....


Just to name a few. Yet some members want to turn this and any other discussion into a bashing contest against not only the current U.S. administration, but the U.S. in general.

[edit on 12-1-2007 by Muaddib]

I'm a little confused here, how is a discussion about Venezuala infused with opinions about things in the US?

Topic folks.

Thanks.

If we were so concerned about the Venezuelan people as some would like to think they are, then we as a people should have sent them doctors instead of oil companies. Thats what Castro did and thats how they became close. Castro didn't send them corporations to take their land and to drain them. He sent them people to help them and heal them. Now he wants those who are trying to take advantage of their people out.

That Billboard picture about secrecy and signatures is no proof. That can be so easily faked and its highly doubtful that they would publicize something like that that could be shown to opponents. More then likely its been Photochopped

For clarification purposes, currently Venezuelean Presidents are only allowed to hold office for two terms consecutively.

When they speak of changing it to unlimited terms, they are talking about making it so you can be President as many times as you can get voted in. That's how we do it in Canada, and we aren't a dictatorship (that I've noticed).