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OP/ED: Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela

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posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:25 PM
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It was something around the Powell FCC.

I'm not "against you" and am not taking that frame of mind, so please don't feel attacked by my arguments.
My position is very simple, as to perspective:

- it's a democracy they voted in. We both know that the world thinks us bumf***ing bananas for 'voting' Bush into a second term.....are you as ready to appease that opinion as you are to marshall those against Chavez?!!?

- it's another manufactured "Crisis" .....same as Iraq ready to destroy us, same as Social Security, same as any number of things that lead back to oil rich foreign lands not being our buddy buddy or an opportunity for crony capitalism or both.




posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:31 PM
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Now to address your question about the population in Cuba, here is an excerpt and a link. This link has a lot of information on how Cuba was before castro.


THE PEOPLE (AT THAT TIME): (And I quote) ""The population of Cuba is different from that of most of the other Central American and Caribbean republics. Like in Costa Rica, its nucleus is white and of pure Spanish descent. According to estimates made during the last official census in Cuba in 1953 the white population represented 73.46 % of the total. This figure also included the descendants of other European immigrants, e.g., Poles, Italians, French, Germans. ""

""It must be stressed that Cuba, like the remainder of the Latin American countries, was not only a Spanish colony, but but was actually and densely settled by Spaniards. As these early Spanish settlers were followed by more Spaniards and European immigrants the island came to be inhabited predominantly by whites of direct European descend.""

""The second group of the population, in order of size, are the descendants of the African slaves who were brought to Cuba to woerk on the sugar plantations. The negro represents 11.83 % of the total. (Ed. note: These figures are practically reversed now with the escape from the Island of the whites and the enormous immigration of Africans, Angolans, S.Africans, etc.). The mestizos(half breed) produced by the mingling of the white and black account for 13.39 % of the population. This racial mixture of Spaniards and Africans is both a cause and an effedct of the abscence of racial prejudice -- a cause because the Spaniards mingle their blood freely with that of the Negroes and a effect because the Mestizos and Mulatos were, and still are, a living link between the two races (Antonio Nuñez Jiménez, Geography of Cuba, Havana).


Excerpted from.
www.nocastro.com...



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
You do agree that fidel castro is a dictator and that what he did to Cuba was not for the betterment of the country but for the betterment of himself and those communists close to him. You agree with this right?


Ok, what I agree with is that you are from Cuba and I am not. Therefore, I concede that any insight you may have into the situation in Cuba would be infinitely truer than any I may have, never having lived there. That is why I never challenge assertions you make regarding Castro and his government.

It is the same as presuming that I have a much better idea of what goes on in Canada, than you have.

With me so far?

Seeing as neither of us have ever lived in Venezuela, any assertions we make are based on our own reading, conversations, and yes, biases.

Niether of us can say for sure that what happened in Cuba will happen there. I acknowledge this, you do not.

I am also familiar with the mentality in Florida regarding this situation, because of the heavy Cuban ex-pat population, and the US propaganda machine you call the news.

Therefore, it is my opinion, that you are allowing your personal feelings to bias your opinion on this particular subject. I have read every link provided and have tried to assimilate all the various conficting information into a bigger picture.

You, on the other hand, are picking and choosing what you wish to hear, and not allowing for the possibility that it just may be possible that you are wrong.

Never put words in my mouth, unless you would care for me to do the same to you in return.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by Bout Time

- it's a democracy they voted in. We both know that the world thinks us bumf***ing bananas for 'voting' Bush into a second term.....are you as ready to appease that opinion as you are to marshall those against Chavez?!!?


It's a manufactured crisis?.... sure.... i guess nothing is happening in Venezuela, like nothing happened in the Ukraine Bout Time...right?...

How is it a democracy when Chavez is doing everything possible not to have a democracy in place? How is it a democracy when he is trying to get total control of the country. This is not an allegation, as some in here make of president Bush, there is proof of what he is doing and what he has said, that power is what he is after, total power.

How exactly is it a democracy when Chavez, and his supporters, are doing their best to stop any non-violent protests?

You cannot be serious to compare what is happening in Venezuela and what is happening in the US.... How many protesters were present during the inaguration of president Bush?.... not many...



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey

I am also familiar with the mentality in Florida regarding this situation, because of the heavy Cuban ex-pat population, and the US propaganda machine you call the news.


I trust the US propaganda, as you call it, raher than the communist propaganda, and the Cuban-Americans have a better understanding than you i would think on whether or not Venezuela is going through a transition to a dictatorship, since they went through one which is the same that Chavez claims is a model for Venezuela....

If Cubans in the US, not only in Florida, are against Chavez, is clearly because most of us can see the path that Chavez is taking his country, which is the same path that castro took Cuba in.

Are you saying that even though Chavez has stated, and according to his actions, he wants to take Venezuela through the same path that Cuba took under castro, that you still have hope that he won't turn a dictator?... That's unrealistic, and folly.

Would you express the same opinion if the prime minister of Canada, presented Hitler or Mussolini as models for Canada and for every reform in Canada?.... If he did everything in his power to follow the footsteps of Hitler and Mussolini?.... and if he claimed that they both were his close personal friends which he holds dear and in high regards?....


[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:54 PM
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Muaddib, you have my last "Way Above" vote for this month for your in depth knowledge and strong opposition to the communist/Stalinist/Maoist rebels that seem to be everywhere! I can't believe people are still defending that ideology....



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
I trust the US propaganda, as you call it, raher than the communist propaganda.


Just to clarify, before I respond, are you referring to the media in Canada, which you have more than likely never seen, or the Cuban and Venezuelan media?

And I call the US media what it is.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
It's a manufactured crisis?.... sure.... i guess nothing is happening in Venezuela, like nothing happened in the Ukraine Bout Time...right?...

Specifics, what is the comparison you're trying to draw?

How is it a democracy when Chavez is doing everything possible not to have a democracy in place? How is it a democracy when he is trying to get total control of the country. This is not an allegation, as some in here make of president Bush, there is proof of what he is doing and what he has said, that power is what he is after, total power.

There's more proof against Bush engendering those very same issues, than against Chavez.

How exactly is it a democracy when Chavez, and his supporters, are doing their best to stop any non-violent protests?

Again, see above. I happened to live in NY. We happened to host the RNC. The efforts to stop non-violent protest have never reached such a nadir.

You cannot be serious to compare what is happening in Venezuela and what is happening in the US.... How many protesters were present during the inaguration of president Bush?.... not many...


Wow!!
Not only Rose Colored Glasses, but a 3 inch thick prescription pair too!!!!!
I guess you missed these when DIM SON got sworn in, huh?










Funny, Team Bush sprays pepperspray on protestors herded into "Free Speech Zones"..........I guess that's a proper democracy, in your eyes, Mdib?



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
Just to clarify, before I respond, are you referring to the media in Canada, which you have more than likely never seen, or the Cuban and Venezuelan media?

And I call the US media what it is.


Oh I see, and Canada does not have a socialist propaganda?....

BTW, i have made threads from news media in Canada in the past....and used other Canadian links... so yes, i am familiar with the media in Canada and other countries.....

Is Canada a communist nation?...are you hinting that it is?... i think I clearly said "communist propaganda".....

Venezuela is slowly turning communist, even though Chavez is clamping down on the media that does not portray him in a favorable manner, there are still examples of freedom in the media. But I am afraid that if nothing changes, Chavez will do the same thing castro did to Cuba's news sources.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 04:20 PM
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Hey cool, people get pepper-sprayed all the time here too...



Canadian Journalists for Free Expression (CJFE) is very concerned over the use of pepper spray on eight accredited photographers by Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) on 4 June 2000 while covering a protest against the Organization of American States (OAS) in Windsor, Ontario. CJFE is an independent organization which promotes freedom of expression worldwide according to the precepts of Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

www.cjfe.org...




The RCMP try to clear the area but chaos erupts. Protestors tear down a fence and pepper spray is shot into the crowds. Later, an unapologetic Prime Minister Chrétien brushes away the pepper spray incident, saying "For me, pepper, I put it on my plate."

archives.cbc.ca...


Oh look, here's my ex-Prime Minister choking someone at a rally:



I guess my point is, this crap happens everywhere.

Muaddib,

No I was not calling Canada communist. I was not clear on your statement, so I asked for clarification. I know jumping to conclusions is a pastime for many here, but I chose to ask for more information, to be sure I didn't misinterpret what you were saying. It's called communication.

We do have a strong labour movement here, much more so than in the US. I'm actually not a fan of them, and surprise, surprise, I don't think communism is a viable government model. I just don't think rampant capitalism at the expense of your poorest citizens is such a good idea either.

This matter is presented with less bias in Canadian media, IMO. I live on the border and receive both Canadian news and US news. I also make a point of seeking other sources, as I am a news junkie.

But I think there may be something we can agree on, politics has no place in the classroom of our youth, and that is the problem up here. They become 'indoctrinated' until they graduate and realize that life's not fair.

I think there is always three sides to everything: yours, mine and the truth.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by Bout Time
There's more proof against Bush engendering those very same issues, than against Chavez.

Funny, Team Bush sprays pepperspray on protestors herded into "Free Speech Zones"..........I guess that's a proper democracy, in your eyes, Mdib?


LOL, you have got to be kidding... This again?...did you miss the link and information that was given about the protesters during the inaugural speech?.....

You obviously did.... quite a few of the protesters became violent, taking down fences, attacking the police and Republicans who were there also expressing their freedoms...

I was there, and the police only moved against those who became violent....some of your buddies even attacked elder people who were/are in favor of Bush. one of your buddies grabbed the tie in the form of an American flag from an old man and shaked it as he kept yelling insults to the old man.

You want to see some pictures from socialist countries and see what they do when protesters become violent?.... Do tell me if you want to go down that road, you are going to lose...


Out of all the protesters that were there, i actually only saw a few, there was only one woman who seemed to have done some research about the matter. I was actually able to "speak to her" she was one of the few that was a bit informed and you could talk to... She, and her group, were not taken away by the police because they were protesting without any violence. She was with about 8 other protesters, in front of the Rayburn building, not once was she or her friends harrased by Republicans.

Some Republicans did yell "4 more years" when they saw the sign that the protesters were carrying. A sign that said for all our troops to come home, when in fact many of the Republicans who were going through that side were dressed in their military uniforms as they were some of those who had returned from Iraq and were invited to eat with their congress representatives.

I was able to talk to this woman, although i do wish I would have asked her name, but we were able to talk a bit in a civil discussion.

Those protesters who were sprayed had turned violent not only towards the police and towards the president's motorade, but also towards Republicans that were there expressing their freedoms......

i guess the leftists are the only ones who have the right to express their opinions huh?


---edited for errors and to add comments---



[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 05:16 PM
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Paint with the broadstroke kid, it won't get you far in life!


American citizens protesting a police record having bum taking the highest office in the land....are LEFTISTS?!?!

You're able to multiply yourself, or better yet, FLY, where by you saw every nook & cranny of the parade route & protests!?!

SO tell me how you personally oversaw the whole protest & were able to pick out the evil & the Republicans!?!

Thread drift to respond to nonsense, my apology.

On thread.........

Where you "think" Venezuela is going & where they "are" is not based on sound enough reasoning that would have ANYONE in their good sense endorse a US backed coup d'etat. That's what you're proposing, because of your beloved Castro.....I say beloved, because I've met your type before.....so ideologically focused on the past, that they can't see the future ....so focused on his removal via punative measures that you're blind to all of the realities that would get him pushed from power.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Are you saying that even though Chavez has stated, and according to his actions, he wants to take Venezuela through the same path that Cuba took under castro, that you still have hope that he won't turn a dictator?... That's unrealistic, and folly.


I will restate my previous request. Do not put words in my mouth. It only makes it apparent that while reading this thread, you are not comprehending it. It makes you look unreasonable and argumentative.

Stop twisting what I say to fit your agenda.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
BS, lol...another one trying to sell communism again?... you can't lie to people who have lived under communism....


okay...lets try this again. YOU HAVE NOT LIVED UNDER COMMUNISM. No Cuban, Chinese, or Russian has EVER lived under communism. What goes on in Cuba is NOT communism, for the simple fact that there is a leader at all. Under the communist doctrine, the state and government is to be dismantled after the revolution. This has not happened, because Castro is still in power. All matters of administration are to be handled by workers' councils, not elected officials. Castro has betrayed the ideals of the revolution and the doctrine of permanent revolution.

[edit on 8-2-2005 by General Zapata]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by Bout Time
Paint with the broadstroke kid, it won't get you far in life!


What a pathetic attempt by you trying to dismiss my argument by calling me a kid.....




Originally posted by Bout Time
American citizens protesting a police record having bum taking the highest office in the land....are LEFTISTS?!?!


humm, let me think, what are Republicans called...is it right wingers? or the right?....

What are those groups who oppose Republicans called?... lefties?

Don't they have ideas that are socialist/liberalist and even communist?....



Originally posted by Bout Time
You're able to multiply yourself, or better yet, FLY, where by you saw every nook & cranny of the parade route & protests!?!

SO tell me how you personally oversaw the whole protest & were able to pick out the evil & the Republicans!?!


No, although i did have a good view of a very large group of Republicans and some of the protesters. My group from Miami was of about 70 people, and we had different Can you please show me where did I mentioned any of the idiotic claims you made?

Let me ask you the same....assumptions you made..... do tell us, where you there supervising everyone of the protesters and making sure they behaved in a civil manner?.....





Originally posted by Bout Time
Thread drift to respond to nonsense, my apology.


More of your stupid attemps at attacking those who disagree with you?....
yes, do apologize.....




Originally posted by Bout Time
On thread.........

Where you "think" Venezuela is going & where they "are" is not based on sound enough reasoning that would have ANYONE in their good sense endorse a US backed coup d'etat. That's what you're proposing, because of your beloved Castro.....I say beloved, because I've met your type before.....so ideologically focused on the past, that they can't see the future ....so focused on his removal via punative measures that you're blind to all of the realities that would get him pushed from power.


Actually I think i have presented enough evidence to the contrary of what you claim...meanwhile you alongside others keep claiming the US is a dictatorship.....don't talk about good sense when you are showing you got none....



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 10:05 PM
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Hummm, today it has been a pretty interesting day....

i don't know what is going on but my account on the boards was frozen as i was still writing the post before this one... anyways, several things happened, including my account being banned for some reason for about 5-10 minutes or so, now I can't edit my last post to add what i was trying to say before the mishap, so I am going to add it in this post. I guess you guys are working on the site still.


----No, although i did have a good view of a very large group of Republicans and some of the protesters. My group, from Miami, was of about 70 people, and we had different tickets to different areas, some of the people in my group got to see more protesters than i saw. Anyways, Can you please show me where did I mention any of the idiotic claims you made?.....



posted on Apr, 18 2005 @ 12:12 AM
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  1. Written a new constitution. Fifty percent of it was written directly by the population. It was put to a referendum and it won the support of 70% of voters. This constitution extended the democratic, social and human rights of the population far beyond the boundaries of a simple parliamentary democracy. The constitution calls for participatory democratic bodies of people to organise and implement new initiatives, such as the ones mentioned here.
  2. Eradicated illiteracy according to United Nations standards.
  3. Lowered the infant mortality rate.
  4. Created 3000 new Bolivarian schools.
  5. Brought in more than 1.5 million people into the education system free of charge.
  6. Established a free university system aimed at the poor majority traditionally excluded from tertiary education (the poor receive free textbooks, free transport to university, free meals at university). Students and staff also work together democratically to create the curriculum.
  7. Built more houses for the poor in two years than in the previous 20 years under the old governments.
  8. Created access to fresh, clean and safe water for millions of people for the first time in their lives.
  9. Re-distributed millions of hectares of unused, idle yet arable (agriculturally usable) land to landless poor people.
  10. Renamed Columbus Day (Christopher Columbus the ‘explorer’) Invasion Day and are rebuilding the nations’ knowledge of real indigenous history and indigenous resistance.
  11. Opened popular food markets which buy food from food cooperatives, it then gets sold in the popular food markets at 30% below the price of food in the big supermarket chain stores.
  12. Opened 1000 free kitchens have been opened to provide free meals for people without homes.
  13. Constructed a massive free healthcare system which now provides free healthcare for the first time in history to poor workers and unemployed people.
  14. Struggled for and won back control of the gigantic oil industry (off corrupt executives and top management) which is now managed jointly by the government and the oil workers.
  15. Increased taxes on corporations, and forced them to actually pay their taxes (McDonalds and Coca Cola were shutdown for three days as punishment for avoiding payment of their full tax bill).
  16. Increased the minimum wage by 30% in 2004 (this was not the first increase since 1998). Government revenue from corporate taxes and oil sales have been used for many social programs and minimum wage increases.
  17. Banned employers sacking workers (which was declared by the government in early 2003). This has been extended and continues, allowing the rapid growth of a strongly rank-and-file-active democratic trade union movement that is washing away the pro-boss unions.
  18. Recognition of domestic work, extending permanent social security payments to people who do domestic labour (mainly women), none of this payment is taken away if their companion is in work.


Hands Off Venezuela
Venezuela Solidarity

PS:
Has anyone seen the movie "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"



posted on Apr, 18 2005 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by ghostsoldier


    Has anyone seen the movie "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"


Indeed.
If anyone would want actual insight into this situation, that docu would definitely be a good start.



posted on Apr, 18 2005 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
While he has been good for the country's poor citizens, this has come at the cost of the property rights of the wealthy.


I haven't gone through all the replies but I had to comment on this, so if it has been covered sry, shoot me!

Do you realise that the poor are the MAJORITY?...
So what if a few wealthy SOB's lose their property?
Typical western mentality, take from the poor and it's called necessary cutbacks... Take from the rich and it's called robbery.

Why do you think the poor are poor? Cause they choose to be?
Don't tell me the rich all get that way because they work harder.
In fact the hardest dirtiest jobs are usually the lowest paid.

I don't see any crime in taking from those that have more than they need and giving it to those that have nothing.

The only reason the poor in the west continue to support the rich is because they are fooled into chasing the carrot. Our eyes sometimes are bigger than our brains. We are conditioned to think that wealth is possible for all of us. And most ppl know that's not true, but still they continue chasing that carrot because they still have that nagging hope they will be rich themselves one day.
I wish ppl would wake up and realise that a life spent chasing wealth is a life waisted.
If people could look beyond their shallow desires, they would start to see how people like Chavez are beneficial to the true MAJORITY.



posted on Apr, 18 2005 @ 03:50 AM
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Yeah ANOK, the poor were the majority under the banner of socialism in Russia as well.
Did you see how the "MAJORITY" was uplifted then?
Chavez is nothing but a socialist Castro wanna-be. Nothing more.
Dictators always use the tired and worn mantra of the poor and how unfairly they have been deprived by those who have. How they will correct their not having. Nothing changes for the poor in reality, whether you or others wish to acknowledge this or not. The haves continue to have while the have nots continue to have not....all the while Chavez gets richer and richer.
They continue to have no land, they continue to starve, they continue to die believing that their chosen leader is looking out for their best interests, eh?

Socialism is a pipe dream that looks swell on paper or when thinking and discussing those utopian ideas over a beer. In reality, socialism has failed, over and over. Don't think so, try looking to Russia for example or simply wait till Castro passes away and see what happens.






seekerof

[edit on 18-4-2005 by Seekerof]



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