OP/ED: Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela, page 6
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reply posted on 8-2-2005 @ 03:31 PM by Muaddib
Now to address your question about the population in Cuba, here is an excerpt and a link. This link has a lot of information on how Cuba was before castro.

THE PEOPLE (AT THAT TIME): (And I quote) ""The population of Cuba is different from that of most of the other Central American and Caribbean republics. Like in Costa Rica, its nucleus is white and of pure Spanish descent. According to estimates made during the last official census in Cuba in 1953 the white population represented 73.46 % of the total. This figure also included the descendants of other European immigrants, e.g., Poles, Italians, French, Germans. ""

""It must be stressed that Cuba, like the remainder of the Latin American countries, was not only a Spanish colony, but but was actually and densely settled by Spaniards. As these early Spanish settlers were followed by more Spaniards and European immigrants the island came to be inhabited predominantly by whites of direct European descend.""

""The second group of the population, in order of size, are the descendants of the African slaves who were brought to Cuba to woerk on the sugar plantations. The negro represents 11.83 % of the total. (Ed. note: These figures are practically reversed now with the escape from the Island of the whites and the enormous immigration of Africans, Angolans, S.Africans, etc.). The mestizos(half breed) produced by the mingling of the white and black account for 13.39 % of the population. This racial mixture of Spaniards and Africans is both a cause and an effedct of the abscence of racial prejudice -- a cause because the Spaniards mingle their blood freely with that of the Negroes and a effect because the Mestizos and Mulatos were, and still are, a living link between the two races (Antonio Nuñez Jiménez, Geography of Cuba, Havana).


Excerpted from.
www.nocastro.com...


reply posted on 8-2-2005 @ 03:37 PM by Duzey
Originally posted by Muaddib
You do agree that fidel castro is a dictator and that what he did to Cuba was not for the betterment of the country but for the betterment of himself and those communists close to him. You agree with this right?


Ok, what I agree with is that you are from Cuba and I am not. Therefore, I concede that any insight you may have into the situation in Cuba would be infinitely truer than any I may have, never having lived there. That is why I never challenge assertions you make regarding Castro and his government.

It is the same as presuming that I have a much better idea of what goes on in Canada, than you have.

With me so far?

Seeing as neither of us have ever lived in Venezuela, any assertions we make are based on our own reading, conversations, and yes, biases.

Niether of us can say for sure that what happened in Cuba will happen there. I acknowledge this, you do not.

I am also familiar with the mentality in Florida regarding this situation, because of the heavy Cuban ex-pat population, and the US propaganda machine you call the news.

Therefore, it is my opinion, that you are allowing your personal feelings to bias your opinion on this particular subject. I have read every link provided and have tried to assimilate all the various conficting information into a bigger picture.

You, on the other hand, are picking and choosing what you wish to hear, and not allowing for the possibility that it just may be possible that you are wrong.

Never put words in my mouth, unless you would care for me to do the same to you in return.



reply posted on 8-2-2005 @ 04:20 PM by Duzey
Hey cool, people get pepper-sprayed all the time here too...


Canadian Journalists for Free Expression (CJFE) is very concerned over the use of pepper spray on eight accredited photographers by Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) on 4 June 2000 while covering a protest against the Organization of American States (OAS) in Windsor, Ontario. CJFE is an independent organization which promotes freedom of expression worldwide according to the precepts of Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

www.cjfe.org...



The RCMP try to clear the area but chaos erupts. Protestors tear down a fence and pepper spray is shot into the crowds. Later, an unapologetic Prime Minister Chrétien brushes away the pepper spray incident, saying "For me, pepper, I put it on my plate."

archives.cbc.ca...


Oh look, here's my ex-Prime Minister choking someone at a rally:



I guess my point is, this crap happens everywhere.

Muaddib,

No I was not calling Canada communist. I was not clear on your statement, so I asked for clarification. I know jumping to conclusions is a pastime for many here, but I chose to ask for more information, to be sure I didn't misinterpret what you were saying. It's called communication.

We do have a strong labour movement here, much more so than in the US. I'm actually not a fan of them, and surprise, surprise, I don't think communism is a viable government model. I just don't think rampant capitalism at the expense of your poorest citizens is such a good idea either.

This matter is presented with less bias in Canadian media, IMO. I live on the border and receive both Canadian news and US news. I also make a point of seeking other sources, as I am a news junkie.

But I think there may be something we can agree on, politics has no place in the classroom of our youth, and that is the problem up here. They become 'indoctrinated' until they graduate and realize that life's not fair.

I think there is always three sides to everything: yours, mine and the truth.


reply posted on 8-2-2005 @ 04:32 PM by Muaddib
Originally posted by Bout Time
There's more proof against Bush engendering those very same issues, than against Chavez.

Funny, Team Bush sprays pepperspray on protestors herded into "Free Speech Zones"..........I guess that's a proper democracy, in your eyes, Mdib?


LOL, you have got to be kidding... This again?...did you miss the link and information that was given about the protesters during the inaugural speech?.....

You obviously did.... quite a few of the protesters became violent, taking down fences, attacking the police and Republicans who were there also expressing their freedoms...

I was there, and the police only moved against those who became violent....some of your buddies even attacked elder people who were/are in favor of Bush. one of your buddies grabbed the tie in the form of an American flag from an old man and shaked it as he kept yelling insults to the old man.

You want to see some pictures from socialist countries and see what they do when protesters become violent?.... Do tell me if you want to go down that road, you are going to lose...

Out of all the protesters that were there, i actually only saw a few, there was only one woman who seemed to have done some research about the matter. I was actually able to "speak to her" she was one of the few that was a bit informed and you could talk to... She, and her group, were not taken away by the police because they were protesting without any violence. She was with about 8 other protesters, in front of the Rayburn building, not once was she or her friends harrased by Republicans.

Some Republicans did yell "4 more years" when they saw the sign that the protesters were carrying. A sign that said for all our troops to come home, when in fact many of the Republicans who were going through that side were dressed in their military uniforms as they were some of those who had returned from Iraq and were invited to eat with their congress representatives.

I was able to talk to this woman, although i do wish I would have asked her name, but we were able to talk a bit in a civil discussion.

Those protesters who were sprayed had turned violent not only towards the police and towards the president's motorade, but also towards Republicans that were there expressing their freedoms......

i guess the leftists are the only ones who have the right to express their opinions huh?


---edited for errors and to add comments---



[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]


reply posted on 8-2-2005 @ 06:32 PM by Muaddib
Originally posted by Bout Time
Paint with the broadstroke kid, it won't get you far in life!


What a pathetic attempt by you trying to dismiss my argument by calling me a kid.....


Originally posted by Bout Time
American citizens protesting a police record having bum taking the highest office in the land....are LEFTISTS?!?!


humm, let me think, what are Republicans called...is it right wingers? or the right?....

What are those groups who oppose Republicans called?... lefties?

Don't they have ideas that are socialist/liberalist and even communist?....


Originally posted by Bout Time
You're able to multiply yourself, or better yet, FLY, where by you saw every nook & cranny of the parade route & protests!?!

SO tell me how you personally oversaw the whole protest & were able to pick out the evil & the Republicans!?!


No, although i did have a good view of a very large group of Republicans and some of the protesters. My group from Miami was of about 70 people, and we had different Can you please show me where did I mentioned any of the idiotic claims you made?

Let me ask you the same....assumptions you made..... do tell us, where you there supervising everyone of the protesters and making sure they behaved in a civil manner?.....




Originally posted by Bout Time
Thread drift to respond to nonsense, my apology.


More of your stupid attemps at attacking those who disagree with you?.... yes, do apologize.....



Originally posted by Bout Time
On thread.........

Where you "think" Venezuela is going & where they "are" is not based on sound enough reasoning that would have ANYONE in their good sense endorse a US backed coup d'etat. That's what you're proposing, because of your beloved Castro.....I say beloved, because I've met your type before.....so ideologically focused on the past, that they can't see the future ....so focused on his removal via punative measures that you're blind to all of the realities that would get him pushed from power.


Actually I think i have presented enough evidence to the contrary of what you claim...meanwhile you alongside others keep claiming the US is a dictatorship.....don't talk about good sense when you are showing you got none....


reply posted on 18-4-2005 @ 12:12 AM by ghostsoldier

  1. Written a new constitution. Fifty percent of it was written directly by the population. It was put to a referendum and it won the support of 70% of voters. This constitution extended the democratic, social and human rights of the population far beyond the boundaries of a simple parliamentary democracy. The constitution calls for participatory democratic bodies of people to organise and implement new initiatives, such as the ones mentioned here.
  2. Eradicated illiteracy according to United Nations standards.
  3. Lowered the infant mortality rate.
  4. Created 3000 new Bolivarian schools.
  5. Brought in more than 1.5 million people into the education system free of charge.
  6. Established a free university system aimed at the poor majority traditionally excluded from tertiary education (the poor receive free textbooks, free transport to university, free meals at university). Students and staff also work together democratically to create the curriculum.
  7. Built more houses for the poor in two years than in the previous 20 years under the old governments.
  8. Created access to fresh, clean and safe water for millions of people for the first time in their lives.
  9. Re-distributed millions of hectares of unused, idle yet arable (agriculturally usable) land to landless poor people.
  10. Renamed Columbus Day (Christopher Columbus the ‘explorer’) Invasion Day and are rebuilding the nations’ knowledge of real indigenous history and indigenous resistance.
  11. Opened popular food markets which buy food from food cooperatives, it then gets sold in the popular food markets at 30% below the price of food in the big supermarket chain stores.
  12. Opened 1000 free kitchens have been opened to provide free meals for people without homes.
  13. Constructed a massive free healthcare system which now provides free healthcare for the first time in history to poor workers and unemployed people.
  14. Struggled for and won back control of the gigantic oil industry (off corrupt executives and top management) which is now managed jointly by the government and the oil workers.
  15. Increased taxes on corporations, and forced them to actually pay their taxes (McDonalds and Coca Cola were shutdown for three days as punishment for avoiding payment of their full tax bill).
  16. Increased the minimum wage by 30% in 2004 (this was not the first increase since 1998). Government revenue from corporate taxes and oil sales have been used for many social programs and minimum wage increases.
  17. Banned employers sacking workers (which was declared by the government in early 2003). This has been extended and continues, allowing the rapid growth of a strongly rank-and-file-active democratic trade union movement that is washing away the pro-boss unions.
  18. Recognition of domestic work, extending permanent social security payments to people who do domestic labour (mainly women), none of this payment is taken away if their companion is in work.


Hands Off Venezuela
Venezuela Solidarity

PS:
Has anyone seen the movie "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"
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