OP/ED: Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela, page 11

Originally posted by Muaddib
It is happening in Venezuela, but "it is the U.S. that is evil" according to you.... Get a life...

Bush goes nuts, Chavez goes nuts, people go nuts...nuts begat more nuts

There are few benefits in becoming a hypocritical, caustic and antisocial dreg of humanity, unless you plan on living like a cave hermit, within a prison cell or to dance on the end of a rope.



It's more likely you loath Castro because he's your mirror image, as in a control freak with an obsessive need to manipulate other people's thoughts. Here's a novel idea: recognize, know and fix your own darkside, fears and insecurities before projecting them on others.

I don't see Venezuelans dropping nukes on civilians, invading countries based on fraud, or sending out thousands of troops to kill their neighbors. Thus your whole argument about shooting some protesters comes from a pulpit of fetid hypocrisy, where only fools and beggars listen. Same reasoning goes along with your jaded ideas of predatory capitalism as some sort of righteous solution, when in actuality its destructive force is unparalled.

If Veneuzuala wants to go commie let them and they'll learn like the rest of have, through direct experience. They don't need some wisenheimer antagonists, who mucked up their own country by electing a burned-out nutbag, telling them how to run their country. They don't want thieving crony corps, who see the rule of law as temporary obstacles, trying to suck their oil teats dry. You can cry all you want about your babaa being taken away, but blaming others for your selfish angst isn't going to change a damn thing, but create more anomosity and less oil being supplied.


Better get busy editing all the history books and tell us how the American Revolution, the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement was all about flowers, bunnies and grandma's cookies.



Next time you use a mail in ballot for the US elections, you can tell us all how secret your name and party affiliation is. Then when you actually figure out that life is more than pharisaism and deception, you can tell others how to get one. Till then, go have a hard look in the mirror i.e. introspection.

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Muaddib
This thread is not about president Bush or your attempts alongside some other members to turn every thread into a Bush bashing, Republican hating rant...last time i checked...

Bush is dismantling democracy in the US, so who is to say that Chavez is doing anything worse and it's certainly not you.

This thread is also about Bush regime, because he is a primary nemesis that drives Chavez's anti-US socialist movement. This thread is also about immoral hijacking egomaniacs that have no clue on what to do other than blame other nations and people for not wanting to play kiss Unckie Sambo's corrupted butt. This thread is also about all those who preach or publish from the pulpit of fetid hypocrisy in order perpetuate even more hypocrisy.

I have and the majority of Americans have had enough of this irresponsible loser-slacker idealism, drummed into the glib and spewed out by the decadent cronies of the military-industrial complex. I have also had enough crap talk on how to hate other nations in order to steal from them. It's wrong, everyone knows it's wrong, we have destroyed our credibility, we are seen as a nation of fools and bullies, and the neocongame is ending as more people wake up.

So don't even try to give me those "on topic" sanctimonious excuses while you litter the thread with garbage acting as if your not responsible for it, and then have the audacity to pretend not to see the Chavez articles I posted that nullify your unreputable bogus propaganda. If you can't stay in the flow of the conversation of the thread or see the connections through your demon haunted world, that's your problem and you can deal with it all by your lonesome.

Chavez and most Americans don't want your brand, Bush's brand or the US corporate brand of an insane fraudulant kleptocracy and no one is going to constructively change a damn thing by playing bash and trash the latin game, when Chavez is holding the drug, uranium and oil cards. The US is in no position to dictate what anyone else does when it's struggling in record debts, is caught redhanded invading a nation under false pretexts, commits war crimes, has statesmen and ceos commiting felonies, is creating more enemies, is imprisoning record numbers of its US citizens, has millions of kids getting dumber, has millions who are food insecure, has 700,000+ homeless, kills 1000's of innocent Iraqi civilians, all the while being largely dependent on other nations for resources and goods.

The results of bashing and trashing Venezuela have produced recently:
Russia delivers combat helicopters to Venezuela under contracts RIA Novosti
Anti-US allies Venezuela and Iran seek OPEC oil cut MSN Money
Iranian President Visits Venezuela to Strengthen Ties The Ledger
N. Korea-Iran alliance should worry US Patriot-News
Castro, Chavez and China South Korea

Congrats to all the desperate knuckleheads of stick diplomacy and your insane cheerleaders.



Angry beggars are not choosers, crackheads don't set market prices and greedy fathers have thieves for children...it's time for the US to clean up it's own fouled nest of treasonists before worrying if Chavez is a dirty bird.

We Can't Make It Here Anymore

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Wow....so Regenmacher resorts to nothing more than rhetorical nonsense and insults, derails the thread and when i respond to his bs I get the warning.....

Oh boy...

Anyways... again, the one video that destroys the rhetorical nonsense that comes out of Regenmacher's fingers, and I guess from his mouth too, about his good friend Chavez...

It is a shame is only in spanish. Do you understand spanish regenmacher, or are you one of those who thinks the "liberal english speaking only left is the one that has the truth"?...

Anyways, even those that don't understand spanish can see for themselves what happens to Venezuelans with Chavez in power... they get shot in the head, they get fired from their jobs, and they are threatened by "el presidente himself"....

video.google.com

Mod Edit: Link format edited. Please review this post.




[edit on 14-1-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Muaddib
I said it once, i said it again... get a life Clown...

Your buddy and lover Chavez is an asshole, a dictator, and a maniac who has as idols other dictators....

So your life now includes buddy lover fiction and a circus tent reality that people should all want to go get? By your sense of logic and labels, then Chavez must be secretly worshipping Bush.

Evasion of said topic by throwing a tantrum and making lame hackneyed immature excuses about derailing the topic is your game not mine. So go look again, and read the Chavez related info that you keep failing to see, comprehend, respond to, make connections to, see the big picture and/or quote about. Matter of fact read the whole thread, the first couple pages are good.

Here's one of those parts you failed to see from above:



FYI: I am literate in English, Deutsch, and Español, and can get by with other dialects when traveling, so knock it off with your perpetual lies and made up fiction. I have seen that propaganda film you posted before. It's been debunked and thus Hugo was re-elected by a 63% majority. Elected by people that actually live there and not by a bunch of gringo Googlers looking at 2-dimensional electronic images that think Hollyweirdized reality is real life.

Here's a subtitled version by two independent filmmakers from Ireland:
Hugo Chavez - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

More about the same film:
An interview with documentary filmmakers Kim Bartley and Donnacha O’Briain Znet
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised Official site
Chavez: Inside the Coup IMDB

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

I think it would benefit everyone to remember that this is ATSNN, and that R.E.S.P.E.C.T. is something we need to show for each other and other readers/members.

Originally posted by Regenmacher

This thread is also about Bush regime, because he is a primary nemesis that drives Chavez's anti-US socialist movement. This thread is also about immoral hijacking egomaniacs that have no clue on what to do other than blame other nations and people for not wanting to play kiss Unckie Sambo's corrupted butt. This thread is also about all those who preach or publish from the pulpit of fetid hypocrisy in order perpetuate even more hypocrisy.

Excellent links and lines Regenmacher. Thank you.

...I have not been paying much attention to Chavez lately - so I greatly appreciate the information you and others are providing on this thread.

BTW - Looks like Chavez is helping Nicaragua shake off the corporate yoke too. Or am I misinformed?

Another question: Is anyone infuencing Chavez and his peers towards libertarian socialism, or are they all going for socialist democracies?




Mod Edit: Removed part of an unnecessary and very large quote.

[edit on 14-1-2007 by UM_Gazz]

I thought this was kind of funny and he was sending a message to these guys.

In a speech to congress Saturday, Chavez said the private companies British Petroleum PLC, Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron Corp., ConocoPhillips Co., Total SA and Statoil ASA would be given the option to stay on as minority partners.

"He who wants to stay on as our partner, we'll leave open the possibility to him. He who doesn't want to stay on as a minority partner, hand over the (oil) field and, goodbye," he said.

"Goodbye, good luck and thank you very much," Chavez added in English.

Source

CARACAS, Venezuela: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Friday that he may block some private TV channels from renewing their broadcast licenses next year, accusing them of fomenting conspiracies against his government.

"Don't be surprised if I say there are no more concessions to some TV channels," when their licenses expire in March, Chavez said in a televised speech.

His warning came after an opposition-aligned private TV station aired a video Thursday showing Oil Minister Rafael Ramirez telling state oil company workers to support Chavez or give up their jobs.

Chavez accused his opponents of "mounting a show" to provoke a scandal and deliberately "agitating" the situation as part of a campaign against his government.

www.iht.com...

Hours after returning from Havana, Venezuelan President-elect Hugo Chavez praised Fidel Castro's Cuba and warned that he might dissolve Congress if it blocks his bid to create a popular assembly with the sole power to rewrite the constitution.

Using the fiery rhetoric that he had largely eschewed since his victory in presidential elections last month, the paratrooper-turned-politician on Monday attacked legislators who argued that his proposal required a prior constitutional reform.

"If Congress does that, then it will be outside of the law and we would have to think about dissolving it," Chavez said. "... The referendum will go ahead, nobody can stop it."

"Let everybody know that in Venezuela there is a revolution in process which nobody can stop ... Those who are afraid must put their fear behind them or take it with them somewhere else," Chavez added.

Chavez, who takes office February 2, also promised to implement an economic system in which the state intervenes actively to defend society's interests, instead of relying on the "invisible hand" of the market.

www.cnn.com...

So, Chavez does want "the govenrment to make the decision instead of the consumers making the decisions", who would have thought...

More on the "freedom of expression in Venezuela.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said he may shut down television stations for criticizing the government and broadcasting ``messages of hate.'

Chavez said the government has begun to review all television concessions, which expire in 2007. Chavez did not specify which stations may be shut down.

``We can't keep giving concessions to a group of people who use television stations against us,'' Chavez said in a televised speech in Caracas. ``Every day they broadcast messages of hate, of disrespect toward institutions, of doubt among us, rumors, psychological war to divide the nation.''

www.vcrisis.com.../200606141630

More about the "freedom that Venezuelans have, and what the Venezuelan government has been doing with the list of people who signed a referendum against Chavez, and some more interesting information on a list of all voters in Venezuela which has been kept and used by the Chavistas...

London 15.09.05 | The existence of systematic political prosecution in Venezuela, as established in article 7 of the Rome Statute, has been been argued for some time now. Apologists of Hugo Chavez maintain that it is nonsense, just another cry wolf allegation against the 'democratically elected' leader. Many people have complained about the existence of a list, compiled by chavista assemblyman Luis Tascon with a group of collaborators, that is widely utilised by government officials at all institutional levels to deny passports, contracts, IDs, employments, benefits, etc. The creation of said database was ordered by Hugo Chavez himself, who in a memo dated January 30th 2004 and addressed to former National Electoral Council's director Francisco Carrasquero, stated:

It is a pleasure to salute you in this opportunity whilst notifying you that I fully authorize Mr. Luis Tascón Gutierréz, ID No 9.239.964, to collect the certified copies of the forms utilized during the 2-A event, which took place between 28/11/03 and 01/12/03, whereby a group of citizens petitioned to activate a Recall Referendum on my mandate, as established in article 72 of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

.......................
Hugo Chavez admitted in live television that the list had fulfilled its purposes -he also praised Jorge Verstrynge's book 1 hour and 25 min. into his dominical charade of Sunday 10th of April- expressing that civil servants ought to stop using it against those who signed to petition for a recall referendum on his mandate. What is more, the database was a key element of the official effort mounted by Chavez with tax payer's money to win the recall referendum known as "Misión Florentino". The software programme that comes with the list is called MaiSanta, probably borrowing its name from Comando Maisanta, which was the chavista political campaign prior to the recall referendum. Also with the package there is a rather long power point presentation geared at electoral officials supportive of Chavez.

Researching a bit about this topic I was able to find, download the list via emule (just search for "lista de tascon") and install the software in my PC. It contains details of 12.394.109 citizens, that is to say Venezuela's entire electoral register up until July 6 2004. The images speak for themselves. The questions: what would happen should any of the leaders of the democratic nations of the world be caught ordering the construction of such database? What would happen to the electoral institutions of any European country and its officials should they be caught passing critical information with respect to the political tendencies of the electorate to politicians of a given ruling party?

www.vcrisis.com.../200509152101

The brutal strategy utilised by the government of Venezuela to placate demonstrations is completely illegal and unconstitutional. Exemplary case of it is the use of martial law to judge civilians or the National Guard firing live ammunition at buildings. Many people have asked me about documents that can prove that indeed these persons are being kept by the State in illegal fashion. In this respect I can only say that it is extremely difficult to gather such data given the lack of diligence of the courts and tribunals to present charges against the detainees. However, recently UK Immigration Judge DG Zucker granted a petition for asylum to a young Venezuelan couple both on human rights and asylum grounds. See the verbattim of his decision here.

www.vcrisis.com.../200403020624

An English Immigration Judge of one of the UK's Asylum and Immigration Tribunals begs to differ, as a matter of fact he recently allowed an appeal on asylum and human rights grounds to a young Venezuelan couple. In his "analysis of evidence and findings of fact" one can read disturbing things such as "...the police had links to vigilante groups... the police and military committed unlawful killings of criminal suspects... torture and abuses of detainees persisted... the government conducted illegal wire tapping of private citizens... President Chavez, officials in his administration and members of his political party consistently attacked the independent media, the political opposition, labour unions, the courts, the church and human rights groups. Many government supporters interpreted these remarks as tacit approval of violence... one NGO documenting 231 unlawful killings from October 2003 through to September of the following year... it would be unduly harsh to expect the Appellant to relocate anywhere within his home country since on my findings he would continue to be at risk given the way in which the regime in Venezuela deals with political opponents without there being any sufficient protection..."

www.vcrisis.com.../200505291621

Remember these Venezuelan citizens have a difference of opinion in politics, they are not terrorists, and they have not resorted to violence........

People temporarily arrested, tortured, dissapeared or killed due to political motives

Political Prisoners

Danny Rámirez, Orlando Pantaleón, Saúl Lozano, Henry Vivas Hernández, Lázaro Forero, Iván Simonovis, Arube Pérez, Marcos Hurtado, Héctor Rovain, Julio Rodríguez, Rafael Neazoa, Ramón Zapata, Erasmo Bolívar, Luis Enrique Molina, Blas Sousa Freitas, Felipe Rodríguez, Francisco Usón, Ovidio Poggioli, Jesús Farías Rodríguez, Jesús Castro Yelles, Rafael Farías Villasmil, Javier Quintero González, Javier Nieto Quintero, Carlos Guerra Camejo, Francisco Martínez G., Luis Antonio González, Miguel Prieto Morales, Otto Gebauer Morales, Humberto Quintero Aguilar, Luis Eduardo Salazar, Carlos Ortega, Salomón Madrid, Mario Pelez, Triana Guerra, Leonardo Tayupo, Leonardo González, Jotaniel Marcano, Luis Chacín Sanguinés, Tayro Aristiguieta, Rafael Gregory Umanés, Pedro Antonio Sifontes N., Silvio Mérida Ortiz, Juvenal Mora Pineda, Victor Valero Castellanos.

www.vcrisis.com.../200403020624

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Muaddib]

A little bit more information on how free Venezuelans are to state their opinions...

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
Human rights defenders, victims of human rights violations, and their relatives are frequently subjected to attacks and intimidation. Despite this, they are almost never granted adequate or effective protection by the State. Venezuelan human rights organizations have documented over 100 police killings in Guárico State in recent years. In the vast majority of these cases the authorities have not investigated the complaints and the perpetrators have not been brought to justice. Many Venezuelan states have a similar history of police abuse.

web.amnesty.org...

Originally posted by TheBorg
That's why we call them sympathizers. It's a completely normal occurance. No surprise here. I'm still trying to figure out what's so revelational about this. Anyone care to help me here?

TheBorg

It is not "a completely normal occurance", people are guilty of the crimes they commit, in this case it is Hugo Chavez, what this thread is about, who is guilty of what is happening to more than half of Venezuelans right now.

Some people, and including members from these same forums, keep claiming to their last breath that Chavez "is a good man fighting for the people"...when he is not... he has been using the poor people, who are 45-47% of Venezuelans, buying them off to have complete control over Venezuela and continue to spread the "permanent revolution" around the world.

He has stated publicly that Trotsky was right against Stalin when he argued that the Revolution cannot ultimately succeed in an isolated state. He has publicly stated that the aim of the Bolivarian Revolution is to spread to every country in Latin America – and beyond.

www.marxist.com...

He has ordered the death of Venezuelans who opose him, he has ordered to also fire from jobs Venezuelans who signed a referendum against him, and they use threats, including from Chavez's mouth against anyone, including Venezuelans who dare to vote or sign any referendum against him...

Wake up...he is a Communist, also known as "red socialist" and despite any claim anyone wants to make Communism has spread more hatred and destruction than any other economic/political system in the world.

Under Communist dictatorships around the world, more than 110 million people have been murdered, more than all other deaths from all wars combined", and many more have been imprisioned in gulags just for having a difference of opinion, or sent to rehabilitation centers to make people "good socialists".

That is the same road that so many Communist dictators have taken entire nations through and destroyed them, including those Chavez calls as friends, mentors and allies, and Chavez is taking Venezuela down that same path.

I have to laugh when some people "claim" the same thing is happening in the U.S....

Show me the U.S. citizens that are getting shot in the head or in the heart in U.S. cities by the police, military or by Republicans because those other American citizens oppose peacefully the current administration...

Show me the "political prisoners", and you should know there is a difference between political prisoners and terrorists who use violence, that are in prison just because they peacefully opose the current administration...

Show me the massive layoffs of workers in the U.S., by the U.S. government, because they opose the current administration, or because they are "democrats, or liberals, or libertarians, or members of any other party or no party at all".

Anyone who wants to claim "the same thing is happening in the U.S." is lying to themselves, or are so naive they can't see the trees in the forest.

[edit on 15-1-2007 by Muaddib]

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