OP/ED: Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela

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posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
Muaddib,

I hate to do this, but I reread this thread before posting in it and have no desire to get into it with you again. I find your tendency to twist my words into things I did not say very frustrating.

My apologies, but I will not be responding to your post beyond this.




Right...so you are another of Chavez's supporters who don't want to say anything when the truth is presented about Chavez...

Anyway you want to put it the truth is that Venezuelans are not free, people in Venezuela have gotten killed, fired from their jobs, threatened and live in fear because they opose Chavez, yet you and others like you want to claim he is not a dictator, even though he himself sees another dictator, castro, as his mentor, friend, father and whatever else he claims castro is for him....




posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by ThePieMaN

That was grover talking to you not me. It was from that thread. This situation has nothing to do with Israel. I used the Israel Lebanon conflict as an example of the hypocrisy you presented yourself in when I suggested that photo could be photoshopped, and you denied it could be even though I was able to fake several signs just using MS Paint and a couple of online sign generators, and Im no expert and photoshopping


The hypocresy is that you are trying to use a photo which is known to have been photoshopped as an excuse that every photo could be photoshopped, but I gave you the reason, twice now, why i am pretty sure that photo is not photoshopped. If you are so smart you can use the photo i gave to trace it to the Venezuelan blog/forum and then find out for yourself that even a Chavista in that "Venezuelan" forum did not deny the existance of that billboard....



Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Im an American.My main concern is America. All I see are seemingly happy Venezuelans who are finally propsering for a change.


Really?... happy as in the videos i gave of Venezuelans getting shot in the head, and the heart by police officers, by military and thugs of Chavez because they opose Chavez?....

Many Venezuelans who signed against Chavez have lost their jobs, and any Venezuelan who thinks about signing or voting against Chavez has been threatened by Chavez in person and still you say "all you see are happy Venezuelans".....

Your "version of happiness" is very strange....


Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I see it as our mistake of not being there for them and this is what happens.They got smart and realized they didn't need us as much as they thought. People like you are unhappy that we have lost control and are trying to smear the man in an attempt to try and make up for our own mistakes.


Actually, people like me are tired of how naive some Americans and others around the world are... Chavez is not a good man...just like Che was not a good man...but since they both in part agree with some of your political agendas you, and some other people, are willing to ignore any injustices people like Chavez have done.....


Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Chavez hasn't invaded anyone, hasn't been torturing people, hasn't killed over 300,000 of any citizens of a foreign country anywhere,has offered poor people in America discounted or free oil for heating their homes when it was needed most,and has offered help during Katrina.


Chavez has funded and aided violent revolutions around the world, just like castro has trying to bring a "permanent revolution" to every country... He has given the go ahead to police officers, military and his thugs to kill Venezuelans who have protested against him, and they are using scare tactics and threatening any Venezuelan who even thinks about signing or voting against him.....

BTW...last time i checked this thread had nothing to do with the United States....and the response by you and some others around here only accentuate my point, you don't care for the truth....you, like some others, just care to state your political agenda against the U.S. administration nomatter what, and in every thread, even if the thread is not about the U.S.....



Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Im not going to smear a man who has offered Americans help when no American Oil company has ever worried about the welfare of poor Americans who would sooner see them freeze to death if they couldn't pay their oil bill.


Chavez is doing the same thing castro has done, meanwhile he opresses his people he tries to show the world that "he is a good man"....

His "giving away oil" is for a reason....it is not for free... even castro had to provide him with professionals from Cuba for the oil he sends to casto...They are good buddies, and friends...and you think he "only wants to give for free oil to Americans"?.... The same people he hates so much?

Yes, he hates Americans because we are Capitalists, and one of his goals is to destroy Capitalism.

Slaves are bought with gifts, a man like Chavez does not give something for free, he expects something in return....but apparently you think that bribes from men like Chavez "makes him a good man"...

You have much to learn.

[edit on 13-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Right...so you are another of Chavez's supporters who don't want to say anything when the truth is presented about Chavez...

No Muaddib, I just won't discuss this with you. I find your communication style distasteful. As I said before, I reread this thread before posting and had already decided I wouldn't discuss this with you.

This is why (both of these quotes were directed at you):

Originally posted by Duzey
Never put words in my mouth, unless you would care for me to do the same to you in return.


Originally posted by Duzey
I will restate my previous request. Do not put words in my mouth.
...snip...
Stop twisting what I say to fit your agenda.

In conclusion: I have no problem discussing this topic, I simply won't discuss it with you.

Go twist some other poster's words, I'm not playing your little games this time.



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
It is happening in Venezuela, but "it is the U.S. that is evil" according to you.... Get a life...


Bush goes nuts, Chavez goes nuts, people go nuts...nuts begat more nuts

There are few benefits in becoming a hypocritical, caustic and antisocial dreg of humanity, unless you plan on living like a cave hermit, within a prison cell or to dance on the end of a rope.


Ego stroking 101: American radio audiences back in the Thirties that heard excerpts of Hitler's rants knew Der Fuhrer was nuts but Hitler's German audiences were ecstatic, possibly because Hitler was telling them what they wanted to hear.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


It's more likely you loath Castro because he's your mirror image, as in a control freak with an obsessive need to manipulate other people's thoughts. Here's a novel idea: recognize, know and fix your own darkside, fears and insecurities before projecting them on others.

I don't see Venezuelans dropping nukes on civilians, invading countries based on fraud, or sending out thousands of troops to kill their neighbors. Thus your whole argument about shooting some protesters comes from a pulpit of fetid hypocrisy, where only fools and beggars listen. Same reasoning goes along with your jaded ideas of predatory capitalism as some sort of righteous solution, when in actuality its destructive force is unparalled.

If Veneuzuala wants to go commie let them and they'll learn like the rest of have, through direct experience. They don't need some wisenheimer antagonists, who mucked up their own country by electing a burned-out nutbag, telling them how to run their country. They don't want thieving crony corps, who see the rule of law as temporary obstacles, trying to suck their oil teats dry. You can cry all you want about your babaa being taken away, but blaming others for your selfish angst isn't going to change a damn thing, but create more anomosity and less oil being supplied.


The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (documentary)
The documentary "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" argues that the shooters were shooting back at snipers and not towards the location of the opposition rally...

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Better get busy editing all the history books and tell us how the American Revolution, the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement was all about flowers, bunnies and grandma's cookies.


Venezuela: The vote is secret

The Constitution is explicit: the vote is secret. Despite this, the government has tried to put fear into people by making them believe that, with the “fingerprint catcher” machines, it will be possible to find out how they voted; something that is completely false.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Next time you use a mail in ballot for the US elections, you can tell us all how secret your name and party affiliation is. Then when you actually figure out that life is more than pharisaism and deception, you can tell others how to get one. Till then, go have a hard look in the mirror i.e. introspection.

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Regenmacher]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by Regenmacher

Bush goes nuts, Chavez goes nuts, people go nuts...nuts begat more nuts


This thread is not about president Bush or your attempts alongside some other members to turn every thread into a Bush bashing, Republican hating rant......last time i checked...


Originally posted by Regenmacher
There are few benefits in becoming a hypocritical, caustic and antisocial dreg of humanity, unless you plan on living like a cave hermit, within a prison cell or to dance on the end of a rope.


What in the world are you talking about now?.... Are you looking in the mirror again and talking to yourself?...



Originally posted by Regenmacher
It's more likely you loath Castro because he's your mirror image, as in a control freak with an obsessive need to manipulate other people's thoughts. Here's a novel idea: recognize, know and fix your own darkside, fears and insecurities before projecting them on others.


Wow...this thread is about Chavez and what is happening in Venezuela, and now you are trying to turn it into a thread to bash and blame me?.... Well, thank you for thinking so much about me but I am not that important, and of course since you really know nothing about me perhaps you should stick to the topic of this thread...

You obviously do not know how to make an argument, but fear not, you are not the only one....


Originally posted by Regenmacher
I don't see Venezuelans dropping nukes on civilians, invading countries based on fraud, or sending out thousands of troops to kill their neighbors. Thus your whole argument about shooting some protesters comes from a pulpit of fetid hypocrisy, where only fools and beggars listen. Same reasoning goes along with your jaded ideas of predatory capitalism as some sort of righteous solution, when in actuality its destructive force is unparalled.


Again since when has what is happening in Venezuela and what Hugo Chavez is doing to half of the Venezuelan population turned into your exagerated rant and bashing contest against the U.S government and the coalition?.....and then if it does not go according to your plan and twisted attempts at derailing the topic of the thread, you turn into making ad hominem attacks on those who are discussing the topic...

Do you really need to feel that important that you have to turn every thread into a hate bashing fest against the U.S. and anyone who "dares to discuss something else aside your rants"?....

Apparently when a thread does not go to your liking, you have to get into another rant of yours, which has nothing to do with the topic of the thread may i add, instead of staying on topic and discussing what the thread is about....

If anyone is trying to "control others's thoughts" it is obviously you, and some other people around here, when you try to turn every thread into a hate mongering, rhetorical rant against anything and anyone who doesn't agree with you, anyone who tries to discuss the topic of the thread instead of getting into one of your "U.S. bashing and hate mongering fests".....

Apparently in school they didn't teach you how to state your argument in a concise manner, without using ad hominen attacks against those who are trying to stay on topic, so let me help you a bit..

The name and topic of discussion of this thread is Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela.... If you can't understand that then perhaps you need to start your own thread and post anything and everything you want... But it is obvious you are trying to derail the thread, and when that didn't work you resorted to attacking one of the people that is staying on topic.

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
This thread is not about president Bush or your attempts alongside some other members to turn every thread into a Bush bashing, Republican hating rant...last time i checked...


Bush is dismantling democracy in the US, so who is to say that Chavez is doing anything worse and it's certainly not you.

This thread is also about Bush regime, because he is a primary nemesis that drives Chavez's anti-US socialist movement. This thread is also about immoral hijacking egomaniacs that have no clue on what to do other than blame other nations and people for not wanting to play kiss Unckie Sambo's corrupted butt. This thread is also about all those who preach or publish from the pulpit of fetid hypocrisy in order perpetuate even more hypocrisy.

I have and the majority of Americans have had enough of this irresponsible loser-slacker idealism, drummed into the glib and spewed out by the decadent cronies of the military-industrial complex. I have also had enough crap talk on how to hate other nations in order to steal from them. It's wrong, everyone knows it's wrong, we have destroyed our credibility, we are seen as a nation of fools and bullies, and the neocongame is ending as more people wake up.

So don't even try to give me those "on topic" sanctimonious excuses while you litter the thread with garbage acting as if your not responsible for it, and then have the audacity to pretend not to see the Chavez articles I posted that nullify your unreputable bogus propaganda. If you can't stay in the flow of the conversation of the thread or see the connections through your demon haunted world, that's your problem and you can deal with it all by your lonesome.

Chavez and most Americans don't want your brand, Bush's brand or the US corporate brand of an insane fraudulant kleptocracy and no one is going to constructively change a damn thing by playing bash and trash the latin game, when Chavez is holding the drug, uranium and oil cards. The US is in no position to dictate what anyone else does when it's struggling in record debts, is caught redhanded invading a nation under false pretexts, commits war crimes, has statesmen and ceos commiting felonies, is creating more enemies, is imprisoning record numbers of its US citizens, has millions of kids getting dumber, has millions who are food insecure, has 700,000+ homeless, kills 1000's of innocent Iraqi civilians, all the while being largely dependent on other nations for resources and goods.

The results of bashing and trashing Venezuela have produced recently:
Russia delivers combat helicopters to Venezuela under contracts RIA Novosti
Anti-US allies Venezuela and Iran seek OPEC oil cut MSN Money
Iranian President Visits Venezuela to Strengthen Ties The Ledger
N. Korea-Iran alliance should worry US Patriot-News
Castro, Chavez and China South Korea

Congrats to all the desperate knuckleheads of stick diplomacy and your insane cheerleaders.


Can Hugo Chavez Beat The Devil?

Chavez, just re-elected to his third term with a hefty 63% majority, has now decided to twist the Yankee devil's capitalist tail by threatening to nationalize several key Venezuelan industries. He couldn't provoke a bigger outcry in Washington than if he had ordered his marketing staff to laminate his smiling photo on all CITGO credit cards and pass out bumper strips at his gas stations reading, "Buy CITGO! Beat the Devil!" Like him or not, Chavez shows courage as well as calculation. Every Latin schoolboy knows the ugly history of U.S. intervention whenever and wherever some Hispanic leader took over, or threatened to take over, a company listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Socialist Salvador Allende was murdered in Chile with the connivance of President Nixon and Henry Kissinger; Ronald Reagan dispatched the Contras to slaughter innocent Nicaraguans; Jack Kennedy okayed the Bay of Pigs assault on Cuba, ad nauseum. To order your own country to conduct its economic affairs in a manner not previously sanctioned by the White House is to risk signing your own death warrant.

A proponent of "21st-century socialism," Chavez wants to put electric and telecommunications companies at the service of the state, rather than at the service of their shareholders. The Associated Press reported January 12th, Chavez "is disposed to pay fair market prices...that would make these 'nationalizations' much less radical than initially feared and not all that unusual in Latin America." White House press secretary Tony Snow claimed nationalization "has a long and inglorious history of failure around the world," a declaration that overlooks the success right here at home of Halliburton Corp., whose sales and profits have soared dramatically since it became a Frankenstein creature of the military-industrial complex and no longer has to bother with competitive bidding to secure multi-billion dollar contracts for disemboweling Iraq. Most of the other principal corporate piggies at the Pentagon trough are also gorging themselves on non-bid delicacies subsidized by the very taxpayers who voted to elect Free Market Bush.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Angry beggars are not choosers, crackheads don't set market prices and greedy fathers have thieves for children...it's time for the US to clean up it's own fouled nest of treasonists before worrying if Chavez is a dirty bird.

We Can't Make It Here Anymore

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Regenmacher]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 10:14 AM
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Wow, let's give an applause to the Regenmacher for changing the topic of this thread...

Hell why not have ATS change it's name to Bash and Blame the U.S. and all republicans for anything and everything thread, not other topics accepted.....



Mod Edit: Warned author, and removed unnecessary personal attack, and comments. Please keep this discussion civil.

[edit on 14-1-2007 by UM_Gazz]

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 10:50 AM
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Wow....so Regenmacher resorts to nothing more than rhetorical nonsense and insults, derails the thread and when i respond to his bs I get the warning.....


Oh boy...

Anyways... again, the one video that destroys the rhetorical nonsense that comes out of Regenmacher's fingers, and I guess from his mouth too, about his good friend Chavez...

It is a shame is only in spanish. Do you understand spanish regenmacher, or are you one of those who thinks the "liberal english speaking only left is the one that has the truth"?...

Anyways, even those that don't understand spanish can see for themselves what happens to Venezuelans with Chavez in power... they get shot in the head, they get fired from their jobs, and they are threatened by "el presidente himself"....


video.google.com

Mod Edit: Link format edited. Please review this post.




[edit on 14-1-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
I said it once, i said it again... get a life Clown...

Your buddy and lover Chavez is an asshole, a dictator, and a maniac who has as idols other dictators....


So your life now includes buddy lover fiction and a circus tent reality that people should all want to go get? By your sense of logic and labels, then Chavez must be secretly worshipping Bush.

Evasion of said topic by throwing a tantrum and making lame hackneyed immature excuses about derailing the topic is your game not mine. So go look again, and read the Chavez related info that you keep failing to see, comprehend, respond to, make connections to, see the big picture and/or quote about. Matter of fact read the whole thread, the first couple pages are good.

Here's one of those parts you failed to see from above:


The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (documentary) -WIKI

An important criticism related to the manipualtion of images is based on a conflicting series of scenes reporting the actions of a group of Chávez supporters shooting towards Baralt Avenue (Frame 1). These scenes were originally taken by a journalistic team from Venevisión, which was awarded the King of Spain’s Journalism Prize for this report.

The documentary "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" argues that the shooters were shooting back at snipers and not towards the location of the opposition rally (33m13s), because images from an amateur video (34m55s) show the streets below to be empty, except for an armored riot vehicle of the Metropolitan Police.

Venezuelan TV producers and engineers Thaelman Urgellesa and Wolfgang Schalk argue in "X-Ray of a Lie" that calculations of the shadows on the bridge show that the two clips were not shot at the same time of the day. They initially argue that the first scene of the shooters shown in the documentary happened between 4:30 to 5:00 in the afternoon (Frame 1) when the crowd was nearby; while the second scene, when the streets were empty, happened about 1:00 to 1:30 in the afternoon before the crowd had arrived (Frame 2). They later note the existence of blood stains on the bridge and human shadows explicitly stating that the time of the video showing the empty street was most likely taken about 5:30 in the afternoon, whether it be 1:30 or 5:30 they claim it was not shot simultaneously. Critics argue that, considering that the bridge runs east-to-west, the claim of the shadow as an indicator of the time of day is dubious, because the length of the railing shadow would not change much over the course of an afternoon.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


FYI: I am literate in English, Deutsch, and Español, and can get by with other dialects when traveling, so knock it off with your perpetual lies and made up fiction. I have seen that propaganda film you posted before. It's been debunked and thus Hugo was re-elected by a 63% majority. Elected by people that actually live there and not by a bunch of gringo Googlers looking at 2-dimensional electronic images that think Hollyweirdized reality is real life.

Here's a subtitled version by two independent filmmakers from Ireland:
Hugo Chavez - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

More about the same film:
An interview with documentary filmmakers Kim Bartley and Donnacha O’Briain Znet
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised Official site
Chavez: Inside the Coup IMDB

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Regenmacher]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:12 AM
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I barely post in the forums anymore because it is obvious how fair and unbiased ATS has become towards Republicans who dare to respond to the insults of members like yourself...

Anyways, what is the name of the thread again, and the topic of the thread?...

Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela....

Perhaps you should listen to your own advice and watch those videos provided, before you keep claiming "the videos are lies, and only I the rainmaker know the truth even though I can't understand spanish one iota"....

Watching how police officers, military who work for Chavez and his Chavista thugs shoot Venezuelans in the head, in the heart and how they shoot into crows of Venezuelans who dare to protest against Chavez should be enough proof of who is lying.....

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:16 AM
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I think it would benefit everyone to remember that this is ATSNN, and that R.E.S.P.E.C.T. is something we need to show for each other and other readers/members.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:18 AM
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Final warning to all parties.

Any post after this that is not directly related to the topic of discussion will receive a warning.

Keep this discussion civil. Personal attacks do nothing to advance any argument. No matter which side you are on.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by Regenmacher

This thread is also about Bush regime, because he is a primary nemesis that drives Chavez's anti-US socialist movement. This thread is also about immoral hijacking egomaniacs that have no clue on what to do other than blame other nations and people for not wanting to play kiss Unckie Sambo's corrupted butt. This thread is also about all those who preach or publish from the pulpit of fetid hypocrisy in order perpetuate even more hypocrisy.



Excellent links and lines Regenmacher. Thank you.


...I have not been paying much attention to Chavez lately - so I greatly appreciate the information you and others are providing on this thread.

BTW - Looks like Chavez is helping Nicaragua shake off the corporate yoke too. Or am I misinformed?

Another question: Is anyone infuencing Chavez and his peers towards libertarian socialism, or are they all going for socialist democracies?




Mod Edit: Removed part of an unnecessary and very large quote.

[edit on 14-1-2007 by UM_Gazz]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:41 AM
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I thought this was kind of funny and he was sending a message to these guys.




In a speech to congress Saturday, Chavez said the private companies British Petroleum PLC, Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron Corp., ConocoPhillips Co., Total SA and Statoil ASA would be given the option to stay on as minority partners.

"He who wants to stay on as our partner, we'll leave open the possibility to him. He who doesn't want to stay on as a minority partner, hand over the (oil) field and, goodbye," he said.

"Goodbye, good luck and thank you very much,"
Chavez added in English.



Source



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 01:25 PM
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CARACAS, Venezuela: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Friday that he may block some private TV channels from renewing their broadcast licenses next year, accusing them of fomenting conspiracies against his government.

"Don't be surprised if I say there are no more concessions to some TV channels," when their licenses expire in March, Chavez said in a televised speech.

His warning came after an opposition-aligned private TV station aired a video Thursday showing Oil Minister Rafael Ramirez telling state oil company workers to support Chavez or give up their jobs.

Chavez accused his opponents of "mounting a show" to provoke a scandal and deliberately "agitating" the situation as part of a campaign against his government.

www.iht.com...


Hours after returning from Havana, Venezuelan President-elect Hugo Chavez praised Fidel Castro's Cuba and warned that he might dissolve Congress if it blocks his bid to create a popular assembly with the sole power to rewrite the constitution.

Using the fiery rhetoric that he had largely eschewed since his victory in presidential elections last month, the paratrooper-turned-politician on Monday attacked legislators who argued that his proposal required a prior constitutional reform.

"If Congress does that, then it will be outside of the law and we would have to think about dissolving it," Chavez said. "... The referendum will go ahead, nobody can stop it."

"Let everybody know that in Venezuela there is a revolution in process which nobody can stop ... Those who are afraid must put their fear behind them or take it with them somewhere else," Chavez added.

Chavez, who takes office February 2, also promised to implement an economic system in which the state intervenes actively to defend society's interests, instead of relying on the "invisible hand" of the market.

www.cnn.com...

So, Chavez does want "the govenrment to make the decision instead of the consumers making the decisions", who would have thought...

More on the "freedom of expression in Venezuela.


Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said he may shut down television stations for criticizing the government and broadcasting ``messages of hate.'

Chavez said the government has begun to review all television concessions, which expire in 2007. Chavez did not specify which stations may be shut down.

``We can't keep giving concessions to a group of people who use television stations against us,'' Chavez said in a televised speech in Caracas. ``Every day they broadcast messages of hate, of disrespect toward institutions, of doubt among us, rumors, psychological war to divide the nation.''

www.vcrisis.com.../200606141630

More about the "freedom that Venezuelans have, and what the Venezuelan government has been doing with the list of people who signed a referendum against Chavez, and some more interesting information on a list of all voters in Venezuela which has been kept and used by the Chavistas...


London 15.09.05 | The existence of systematic political prosecution in Venezuela, as established in article 7 of the Rome Statute, has been been argued for some time now. Apologists of Hugo Chavez maintain that it is nonsense, just another cry wolf allegation against the 'democratically elected' leader. Many people have complained about the existence of a list, compiled by chavista assemblyman Luis Tascon with a group of collaborators, that is widely utilised by government officials at all institutional levels to deny passports, contracts, IDs, employments, benefits, etc. The creation of said database was ordered by Hugo Chavez himself, who in a memo dated January 30th 2004 and addressed to former National Electoral Council's director Francisco Carrasquero, stated:

It is a pleasure to salute you in this opportunity whilst notifying you that I fully authorize Mr. Luis Tascón Gutierréz, ID No 9.239.964, to collect the certified copies of the forms utilized during the 2-A event, which took place between 28/11/03 and 01/12/03, whereby a group of citizens petitioned to activate a Recall Referendum on my mandate, as established in article 72 of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

.......................
Hugo Chavez admitted in live television that the list had fulfilled its purposes -he also praised Jorge Verstrynge's book 1 hour and 25 min. into his dominical charade of Sunday 10th of April- expressing that civil servants ought to stop using it against those who signed to petition for a recall referendum on his mandate. What is more, the database was a key element of the official effort mounted by Chavez with tax payer's money to win the recall referendum known as "Misión Florentino". The software programme that comes with the list is called MaiSanta, probably borrowing its name from Comando Maisanta, which was the chavista political campaign prior to the recall referendum. Also with the package there is a rather long power point presentation geared at electoral officials supportive of Chavez.

Researching a bit about this topic I was able to find, download the list via emule (just search for "lista de tascon") and install the software in my PC. It contains details of 12.394.109 citizens, that is to say Venezuela's entire electoral register up until July 6 2004. The images speak for themselves. The questions: what would happen should any of the leaders of the democratic nations of the world be caught ordering the construction of such database? What would happen to the electoral institutions of any European country and its officials should they be caught passing critical information with respect to the political tendencies of the electorate to politicians of a given ruling party?

www.vcrisis.com.../200509152101


The brutal strategy utilised by the government of Venezuela to placate demonstrations is completely illegal and unconstitutional. Exemplary case of it is the use of martial law to judge civilians or the National Guard firing live ammunition at buildings. Many people have asked me about documents that can prove that indeed these persons are being kept by the State in illegal fashion. In this respect I can only say that it is extremely difficult to gather such data given the lack of diligence of the courts and tribunals to present charges against the detainees. However, recently UK Immigration Judge DG Zucker granted a petition for asylum to a young Venezuelan couple both on human rights and asylum grounds. See the verbattim of his decision here.

www.vcrisis.com.../200403020624


An English Immigration Judge of one of the UK's Asylum and Immigration Tribunals begs to differ, as a matter of fact he recently allowed an appeal on asylum and human rights grounds to a young Venezuelan couple. In his "analysis of evidence and findings of fact" one can read disturbing things such as "...the police had links to vigilante groups... the police and military committed unlawful killings of criminal suspects... torture and abuses of detainees persisted... the government conducted illegal wire tapping of private citizens... President Chavez, officials in his administration and members of his political party consistently attacked the independent media, the political opposition, labour unions, the courts, the church and human rights groups. Many government supporters interpreted these remarks as tacit approval of violence... one NGO documenting 231 unlawful killings from October 2003 through to September of the following year... it would be unduly harsh to expect the Appellant to relocate anywhere within his home country since on my findings he would continue to be at risk given the way in which the regime in Venezuela deals with political opponents without there being any sufficient protection..."

www.vcrisis.com.../200505291621

Remember these Venezuelan citizens have a difference of opinion in politics, they are not terrorists, and they have not resorted to violence........


People temporarily arrested, tortured, dissapeared or killed due to political motives

Political Prisoners

Danny Rámirez, Orlando Pantaleón, Saúl Lozano, Henry Vivas Hernández, Lázaro Forero, Iván Simonovis, Arube Pérez, Marcos Hurtado, Héctor Rovain, Julio Rodríguez, Rafael Neazoa, Ramón Zapata, Erasmo Bolívar, Luis Enrique Molina, Blas Sousa Freitas, Felipe Rodríguez, Francisco Usón, Ovidio Poggioli, Jesús Farías Rodríguez, Jesús Castro Yelles, Rafael Farías Villasmil, Javier Quintero González, Javier Nieto Quintero, Carlos Guerra Camejo, Francisco Martínez G., Luis Antonio González, Miguel Prieto Morales, Otto Gebauer Morales, Humberto Quintero Aguilar, Luis Eduardo Salazar, Carlos Ortega, Salomón Madrid, Mario Pelez, Triana Guerra, Leonardo Tayupo, Leonardo González, Jotaniel Marcano, Luis Chacín Sanguinés, Tayro Aristiguieta, Rafael Gregory Umanés, Pedro Antonio Sifontes N., Silvio Mérida Ortiz, Juvenal Mora Pineda, Victor Valero Castellanos.

www.vcrisis.com.../200403020624

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 01:42 PM
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A little bit more information on how free Venezuelans are to state their opinions...


BACKGROUND INFORMATION
Human rights defenders, victims of human rights violations, and their relatives are frequently subjected to attacks and intimidation. Despite this, they are almost never granted adequate or effective protection by the State. Venezuelan human rights organizations have documented over 100 police killings in Guárico State in recent years. In the vast majority of these cases the authorities have not investigated the complaints and the perpetrators have not been brought to justice. Many Venezuelan states have a similar history of police abuse.

web.amnesty.org...



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 08:44 PM
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Muaddib you are critisizing this guy meanwhile here in America PEACEFUL protestation is being recorded on videotape to identify possible agitators, spies are being placed in the midst of peace groups and to top it off our President is ceasing all government funding for PBS because they aired a showing of a childrens educational show depicting homosexuals, and you worry about Venezuelans?

I don't know in what context the Oil minister was threateneing loss of jobs but its quite possible that the loss of jobs to the locals would be caused by International companies hiring outsourced workers.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 09:31 PM
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Wow...people really can't understand what it means when a thread is about Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela ...and apparently the "staff" does not get involved anymore, unless it is to warn a member they disagree with... humm...wonder what that sounds like?...

It is just incredible the amount of ignorance that still exists to this day when people still want to vindicate "poor dictators...it is not his fault that he has ordered the murder of Venezuelans for demonstrating against him, it is not his fault that he has been abusing his power and there are Venezuelan political prisoners in the country, or that Venezuelan people have had to ask for political assylum in other countries, or that he is dismantling democracy, it is all the fault of the United States...yes, the United States made him do it"....


and the thing is, this is not the first time that some members have made such claims when it comes to "dictators"......

Whenever any dictator anywhere in the globe kills his people, or opresses them you always get some members claiming the same...."poor dictator...it is all the fault of the United States".....

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Whenever any dictator anywhere in the globe kills his people, or opresses them you always get some members claiming the same...."poor dictator...it is all the fault of the United States".....

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Muaddib]


That's why we call them sympathizers. It's a completely normal occurance. No surprise here. I'm still trying to figure out what's so revelational about this. Anyone care to help me here?

TheBorg



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 01:50 AM
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Originally posted by TheBorg
That's why we call them sympathizers. It's a completely normal occurance. No surprise here. I'm still trying to figure out what's so revelational about this. Anyone care to help me here?

TheBorg


It is not "a completely normal occurance", people are guilty of the crimes they commit, in this case it is Hugo Chavez, what this thread is about, who is guilty of what is happening to more than half of Venezuelans right now.

Some people, and including members from these same forums, keep claiming to their last breath that Chavez "is a good man fighting for the people"...when he is not... he has been using the poor people, who are 45-47% of Venezuelans, buying them off to have complete control over Venezuela and continue to spread the "permanent revolution" around the world.


He has stated publicly that Trotsky was right against Stalin when he argued that the Revolution cannot ultimately succeed in an isolated state. He has publicly stated that the aim of the Bolivarian Revolution is to spread to every country in Latin America – and beyond.

www.marxist.com...

He has ordered the death of Venezuelans who opose him, he has ordered to also fire from jobs Venezuelans who signed a referendum against him, and they use threats, including from Chavez's mouth against anyone, including Venezuelans who dare to vote or sign any referendum against him...

Wake up...he is a Communist, also known as "red socialist" and despite any claim anyone wants to make Communism has spread more hatred and destruction than any other economic/political system in the world.

Under Communist dictatorships around the world, more than 110 million people have been murdered, more than all other deaths from all wars combined", and many more have been imprisioned in gulags just for having a difference of opinion, or sent to rehabilitation centers to make people "good socialists".

That is the same road that so many Communist dictators have taken entire nations through and destroyed them, including those Chavez calls as friends, mentors and allies, and Chavez is taking Venezuela down that same path.

I have to laugh when some people "claim" the same thing is happening in the U.S....

Show me the U.S. citizens that are getting shot in the head or in the heart in U.S. cities by the police, military or by Republicans because those other American citizens oppose peacefully the current administration...

Show me the "political prisoners", and you should know there is a difference between political prisoners and terrorists who use violence, that are in prison just because they peacefully opose the current administration...

Show me the massive layoffs of workers in the U.S., by the U.S. government, because they opose the current administration, or because they are "democrats, or liberals, or libertarians, or members of any other party or no party at all".

Anyone who wants to claim "the same thing is happening in the U.S." is lying to themselves, or are so naive they can't see the trees in the forest.

[edit on 15-1-2007 by Muaddib]





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