OP/ED: Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela

Originally posted by Duzey
For clarification purposes, currently Venezuelean Presidents are only allowed to hold office for two terms consecutively.

When they speak of changing it to unlimited terms, they are talking about making it so you can be President as many times as you can get voted in. That's how we do it in Canada, and we aren't a dictatorship (that I've noticed).

Having a string of consecutive terms equates to one long term. For a real definition of the phrase "two term limit", look to the 22nd Amendment of the US Constitution:

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once."

Mark my word, Chavez will get rid of that pesky little word "consecutive".

I understand that this means he could be President for a long time. I don't see how it is much different from our system - except that we don't actually get to vote for our PM. MacKenzie King had power for around 22 years, non-consecutively. Our longest consecutive PM was 15 years.

I guess I'm just used to having no limits on how long or how many times you can be leader, so I don't see the big problem.

Originally posted by Duzey

I guess I'm just used to having no limits on how long or how many times you can be leader, so I don't see the big problem.

DUZEY - DON'T SAY THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next thing you know, Bush will be quoting you in Congress to justify a Bushtatorship!

I suppose if Bush could get it past the American public and get re-elected, I'd have to pull up that post to remind myself that I wasn't allowed to say anything about it.

Originally posted by Duzey

I suppose if Bush could get it past the American public and get re-elected, I'd have to pull up that post to remind myself that I wasn't allowed to say anything about it.

You can say whatever you want, Duzey.

The thinking behind term limits is that is defeats power dynasties from forming. I only wish that we had term limits on our Senators and Congressmen.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
If we were so concerned about the Venezuelan people as some would like to think they are, then we as a people should have sent them doctors instead of oil companies.

Cuban doctors are being sent to Cuba because they are paid a mysery, and castro is getting oil deals from Chavez for ordering Cuban doctors to go to Venezuela. So don't come here claiming castro is not getting anything in return, because he is getting oil, and the Cuban doctors are geting paid the same salary they get paid in Cuba, while Venezuelan doctors go on strike because their salaries were lowered and still Cuban doctors are being sent there.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Thats what Castro did and thats how they became close. Castro didn't send them corporations to take their land and to drain them. He sent them people to help them and heal them. Now he wants those who are trying to take advantage of their people out.

They became close because they both want to see the fall of Capitalism, and the U.S. in general, they are both "socialists" and how people call them in Cuba and Venezuela "Communistas arrepentidos", if you don't understand that then you need to do a lot more research.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
That Billboard picture about secrecy and signatures is no proof. That can be so easily faked and its highly doubtful that they would publicize something like that that could be shown to opponents. More then likely its been Photochopped

That picture was given in a Venezuelan blog, which i didn't link because it is against the forum rules, and in order for you to prove "it was photochopped" you need to prove it.... and again I can see how you among some others keep ignoring what is shown in the video I gave from the April 11 2002 protest against Chavez.

I am always amazed at how "Chavez supporters" always ignore the hard facts and want to claim "worse things are happening in the U.S." when that statement and others are "only lies".

Originally posted by Duzey
For clarification purposes, currently Venezuelean Presidents are only allowed to hold office for two terms consecutively.

Since you like to "clarify things" why don't you "clarify" what is shown in the video I have given several times on what happened during the April 11 2002 demonstrations against Chavez in Venezuela?....

Again, here is the link. Do yourself a favour and watch the entire thing, then come back and "clarify things for us".

WARNING AGAIN, THERE IS VIOLENCE IN THAT VIDEO. PEOPLE ARE SHOWN WHO ARE SHOT IN THE HEAD, THE HEART, AND GENERAL VIOLENCE.

video.google.com...

Originally posted by Duzey
When they speak of changing it to unlimited terms, they are talking about making it so you can be President as many times as you can get voted in. That's how we do it in Canada, and we aren't a dictatorship (that I've noticed).

When "Chavez" speaks of "unlimited terms or to be in office as long as castro has" he is talking about having a Cuban-style dictatorship in Venezuela.

Chavez himself has even said that if 90% of signatures from Venezuelans is gathered to make a referendum against him, he will not quit. i have given a link to a video where he says this in the Venezuelan media, and I have asked the spanish speaking supporters of Chavez in these forums, to respond to those videos, and the one above. But they always dissapear when those links and videos are given.

[edit on 13-1-2007 by Muaddib]

Muaddib,

I hate to do this, but I reread this thread before posting in it and have no desire to get into it with you again. I find your tendency to twist my words into things I did not say very frustrating.

My apologies, but I will not be responding to your post beyond this.


edited to 'clarify' who I was responding to.

[edit on 13-1-2007 by Duzey]

Originally posted by jsobecky
The thinking behind term limits is that is defeats power dynasties from forming. I only wish that we had term limits on our Senators and Congressmen.

Honestly, I have expressed a desire for term limits in Canada on occasion. I just don't see the lack of term limits as a dictatorship.

If Chavez brings up the idea of not having elections, then I would be concerned and more inclined to call him a dictator.

Originally posted by Muaddib
That picture was given in a Venezuelan blog, which i didn't link because it is against the forum rules, and in order for you to prove "it was photochopped" you need to prove it.... and again I can see how you among some others keep ignoring what is shown in the video I gave from the April 11 2002 protest against Chavez.

I am always amazed at how "Chavez supporters" always ignore the hard facts and want to claim "worse things are happening in the U.S." when that statement and others are "only lies".

www.churchsigngenerator.com...




This site you can upload your own image and edit it online.
Bear in mind Im only using Windows Paint sinceI havent put in Photoshop yet.
www.signgeneratormaker.com...







[edit on 13-1-2007 by ThePieMaN]

To those people who have not seen the video where Chavez threatens the Venezuelans who signed a referendum against him, here is a link to that video.

video.google.com...

The video is in Spanish, and again, Marg and some other supporters of Chavez who speak and understand spanish never respond to these videos.

At first four Venezuelans state their views as to what is happening in Venezuela, and then Chavez clearly states "Whoever signs against Chavez, their names will be kept for posterity, because they have to sign their names, last names, give their social number, and give their fingerprints"

In November 4 2002, when the Venezuelan people went to the street to sign a referendum against Chavez, the govenrment of Venezuela again reponded with violence.

Then, in the above video at 6 minutes 40 second, Chavez again speaks up, and he says "If after the referendum, even if 90% of votes are gathered, I am not going to get out of power, forget it"

More than 3 million signatures were gathered, yet the governemnet of Venezuela claimed only 2+ million signatures were gathered.

The lists of Venezuelan people who voted a referendum against Chavez, have been used by the government of Venezuela to fire people in a massive scale in Venezuela.

But some people want to claim Venezuelans are free...

[edit on 13-1-2007 by Muaddib]

Pieman... i found that sign in a Venezuelan blog, which also happens to be a forum where Venezuelans respond, which is the reason I cannot link to it since it goes against the policy of the forums.... Even one of the Chavistas who responds in that blog never denies the existance of that sign....

Nice try.....

Are you also going to claim now that the murder of Venezuelans during the April 11 2002 demonstration against Chavez was photoshopped?.... or that all the videos I have given are also photoshopped?....


And Pieman... nice try on trying to turn this against me with your little joke...

My guess is "we are going to have to vote for you, because you are sure the videos, the declarations of Venezuelans and the excerpts from Chavez mouth are all photoshopped......

What a conspiracy...millions of Venezuelans are in on it huh Pieman?...

Is that what you are going to claim next Pieman?


[edit on 13-1-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
And Pieman... nice try on trying to turn this against me with your little joke...

My guess is "we are going to have to vote for you, because you are sure the videos, the declarations of Venezuelans and the excerpts from Chavez mouth are all photoshopped......

What a conspiracy...millions of Venezuelans are in on it huh Pieman?...

Is that what you are going to claim next Pieman?

Muaddib
Strange but I seem to recollect back in August when it came to Israel-vs-Lebanon you surely believed in Photochopping for ones agenda but now since its something you believe, it doesn't exist.
In Lebanon it can happen because you believed in the Israeli side, but in Venezuela because you disagree with Chavez, photochopping does not exist.

quote: Originally posted by grover
Great just what we need.

Next thing you know somebody on here will claim its proof that Israel hasn't bombed Beirut.

Originally posted by Muaddib
I don't see anyone claiming that in here, yet it shows that there are reporters who apparently fake news for their own political agenda/propaganda, in this case an agenda against Israel.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Most folks only agree if it strokes their egos, which can have little to do with objective reasoning or the big picture.

America's current moronic idea of diplomacy is to continually bash their resource suppliers over the head, labeling them evil and then make demands. Thus Venezuela wants little to do with US's corrupt corporate kleptocracy and they are fed up with being intimidated.

So one day all the resource kids get fed up with the schoolyard bully extorting them for lunch money, they gang up on him, kick his ass, break his legs and leave him lying in the ditch. The bully slowly starves to death, cause he has pissed off and ripped off even his few remaining friends, and he no longer has the skills to make it on his own...end of story.

The age of the irresponsible debtor nation and its corporate parasites is coming to an end:
Analysts warn of 'oil axis' hostile to US

[edit on 13-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by soficrow


IMO - this is an op/ed piece. Opinion - not news.

"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is slowly turning Venezuela into a socialist dictatorship. " HUH? Opinion, not news.

Opinion huh? I beg to differ. Posted on CNN on 1-10-07:

"Fatherland, socialism or death -- I take the oath," Chavez said.

It's obvious that he's moving towards a socialist dictatorship. How much more evidence do we need, aside from he own admission?

In my opinion, the rest of that article is just a bunch of political bantering. What concerns me is that he said he's moving to a more socialist-style society. He wants to have the Constitution overhauled, to allow him to have broader executive powers. Next, if he's truly after a dictatorship, he'll be asking, no demanding, to have complete control of the government. He'll ask for the Congress to be absolved, in favor of a stricter rule by himself. That's the way it works. There's only one road to go down here, and he's already on it.

TheBorg

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Muaddib
Strange but I seem to recollect back in August when it came to Israel-vs-Lebanon you surely believed in Photochopping for ones agenda but now since its something you believe, it doesn't exist.
In Lebanon it can happen because you believed in the Israeli side, but in Venezuela because you disagree with Chavez, photochopping does not exist.

Wrong, i actually think that was not photoshopped because, as i said once, it came from a Venezuelan blog where there was one Chavista responding and he never denied the existance of that sign.... I can't give a link but if you were smart you would find out the website with that link I gave.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Next thing you know somebody on here will claim its proof that Israel hasn't bombed Beirut.

What the hell does this have to do with Israel?.....
and btw that image about Beirut in particular was already debunked....

Nice try again Pieman... and btw, why haven't you said a thing about those videos I gave?....

[edit on 13-1-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Most folks only agree if it strokes their egos, which can have little to do with objective reasoning or the big picture.

Apparently you are one of those people that agrees "if it strokes your ego"....

First of all, how the heck does that make right what is shown in those videos of Venezuelans getting killed because they were protesting against Chavez, or those Venezuelans who got fired because they signed a referendum to get Chavez out of power?....

Originally posted by Regenmacher
America's current moronic idea of diplomacy is to continually bash their resource suppliers over the head, labeling them evil and then make demands.

What the heck?... First of all, it has been Chavez the one to "bash in the head at the U.S."....

Second of all, Chavez's main goal is to destroy Capitalism, alongside some other people and he is doing anything and everything possible to attain this, and apparently you agree with him, and I guess youa re going to claim now that "Chavez is a saint who hasn't done a thing to the Venezuelan people, and is only fighting for the people"....

Well, what about the fact that at least half of Venezuela are part of the middle class he wants to get rid of and wants to make as poor as the rest of the nation?

His idea of "socialism", which in fact is "red socialism" is the same one that destroyed Cuba and the Cuban people.

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Thus Venezuela wants little to do with US's corrupt corporate kleptocracy and they are fed up with being intimidated.

What a crook... Venezuela doesn't want anything to do with the U.S. because the U.S. is a Capitalist country and one that really "gives power to the people"..

I don't see any americans getting shot in the head or the heart by the police, the military or those who back president Bush because they disagree with the present administration and hate president Bush and anything Republican....

It is happening in Venezuela, but "it is the U.S. that is evil" according to you.... Get a life...

[edit on 13-1-2007 by Muaddib]

I really wonder why "Chavez's supporters in these forums apparently can't make themselves look at what happens in those videos I gave"... I guess the truth about their "savior" is too much for them...

Oh, and btw, lets look at some facts about "the people of Venezuela"...

Chavez and his supporters, including people in these forums, have claimed that there are more poor people in Venezuela than the middle and upper classes...let's see if that is true....

Poor people are the first to suffer from rising unemployment, low wages and inflation. Their nutritional standards and education levels are sinking and their productivity is declining. Almost half (45 per cent) of Venezuelans are poor. According to the 2001 census, the country has as many as 11 million poor people and 5 million extremely poor people.

www.ruralpovertyportal.org...

45% of people in Venezuela are poor, and in those 45% there are 5 million who are extremely poor...

Now it is a high percentage, but it is a far cry from the claims of Chavez, and his supporters...

How can Venezuela be mostly poor, when not even half of it's population is poor?.... Have the middle class dissapeared in the "conspiracy black hole"?....

Chavez does not fight for the people of Venezuela, because he is only fighting for 45% of the people, not for all Venezuelans... and those who disagree with him, lose their pension, lose their social programs, lose their jobs, and in cases have lost their lives....but I guess "he is fighting for the people"....

[edit on 13-1-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Next thing you know somebody on here will claim its proof that Israel hasn't bombed Beirut.

What the hell does this have to do with Israel?.....
and btw that image about Beirut in particular was already debunked....

That was grover talking to you not me. It was from that thread. This situation has nothing to do with Israel. I used the Israel Lebanon conflict as an example of the hypocrisy you presented yourself in when I suggested that photo could be photoshopped, and you denied it could be even though I was able to fake several signs just using MS Paint and a couple of online sign generators, and Im no expert and photoshopping

Nice try again Pieman... and btw, why haven't you said a thing about those videos I gave?....

Im an American.My main concern is America. All I see are seemingly happy Venezuelans who are finally propsering for a change. I see it as our mistake of not being there for them and this is what happens.They got smart and realized they didn't need us as much as they thought. People like you are unhappy that we have lost control and are trying to smear the man in an attempt to try and make up for our own mistakes.

Chavez hasn't invaded anyone, hasn't been torturing people, hasn't killed over 300,000 of any citizens of a foreign country anywhere,has offered poor people in America discounted or free oil for heating their homes when it was needed most,and has offered help during Katrina.

Im not going to smear a man who has offered Americans help when no American Oil company has ever worried about the welfare of poor Americans who would sooner see them freeze to death if they couldn't pay their oil bill.