Idaho school turmoil over sex survey

a reply to: Area201

The survey was designed for adults, covering things like anal sex oral sex and intoxication. This is not something that should be given to kids.

Oh it was done with no consent from the parents.

Catching anyone doing anything is not what the schools function is. They are supposed to be educating children, not have them go home and get the birds and the bees about anal sex.

a reply to: seasonal

I'm pretty sure the parents would not give permission for the survey if they are being abusive to their kids at home. So there is a catch 22 of sorts. Imo, hearing all the stories of abuse at home, I think it's less bad to give the awkward invasive survey than not if it's effective in reducing abuse. I just disagree on the grounds of lesser of two evils.

a reply to: Area201

Well, the do goodery in your thought remind me of the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I would have said no to this survey. And I can tell you alot of my neighbors and friends would have told the busy bodies to fly a kite.

And your statement also reminds me of the if you got nothing to hide you got nothing to fear BS.

If your thought process is allowed to be extrapolated then we will be in very deep doo doo.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
If you need the hand of the government, or any other organisation for that matter, to assist you in raising your kids properly - then you had no business having kids in the first place.

As I said, I have no intention of having kids. I'm not even capable of being 1/10 the role model my dad was, I cannot perfectly balance a childs nutrition (much less cook the meals), I probably don't know every single thing they're going to be taught in school which makes me bad at helping them, and I'm certainly not an expert in morality and ethics to teach them right from wrong.

I could teach a kid what I know and believe but I have zero reason to think that any thoughts in my head are correct in the first place (if history is any guide to go by, everything I know is wrong), so what gives me the right to fill their heads with garbage? What gives any parent that right?

a reply to: HeathenJessie

A parents intentions, and the actual results of their actions are two very different things.

How does that phrase go? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

originally posted by: seasonal
Oh it was done with no consent from the parents.

Catching anyone doing anything is not what the schools function is. They are supposed to be educating children, not have them go home and get the birds and the bees about anal sex.

That's a little bit different. But, it does flag potential cases of child abuse, or at the very least parents that are too weak to keep it in their pants until appropriate. Neither of which I have a problem with.

a reply to: Aazadan

Your logic is flawed.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Aazadan

Your logic is flawed.

How so?

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
If you need the hand of the government, or any other organisation for that matter, to assist you in raising your kids properly - then you had no business having kids in the first place.

As I said, I have no intention of having kids. I'm not even capable of being 1/10 the role model my dad was, I cannot perfectly balance a childs nutrition (much less cook the meals), I probably don't know every single thing they're going to be taught in school which makes me bad at helping them, and I'm certainly not an expert in morality and ethics to teach them right from wrong.

I could teach a kid what I know and believe but I have zero reason to think that any thoughts in my head are correct in the first place (if history is any guide to go by, everything I know is wrong), so what gives me the right to fill their heads with garbage? What gives any parent that right?

Indeed - so your opinion is based off of your own inabilities which you deem fit to project onto others.

Don't judge others by your standards, there are some great parents out there. Some people are smart enough to do what's right without requiring assistance or interference from the establishment.

a reply to: Aazadan

So...my parents had good intentions...are you saying they've failed in some way?

Do you base all of your opinions on stupid sayings and quotes? You're basically asserting, in a roundabout way, that parents will inevitably do the opposite to what they intend, based on some saying.

It might hold true for you, but you don't speak for everyone.

I look at my own family, friends...a lot of people I know, they've tried to do right by their kids and pretty much all done a decent job. Nobody is perfect, sure people make mistakes. That's life...where does it end?

Why don't the authorities simply take peoples kids from them and put them into care? What exactly do you want, here?

No - wait, the care system is rife with abuse and pedophilia...forgot about that.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Aazadan

Your logic is flawed.

How so?

Because it's illogical.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
Indeed - so your opinion is based off of your own inabilities which you deem fit to project onto others.

Don't judge others by your standards, there are some great parents out there. Some people are smart enough to do what's right without requiring assistance or interference from the establishment.

Then how come two people with kids can come to completely opposite conclusions on parenting? That implies that one, or both, are wrong.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
How so?

Because it's illogical.

You're not doing a very good job of explaining why.

a reply to: Aazadan

Indeed..it implies that they have different ideas...there's no right way to do things you know.

Two sets of parents might raise their kids completely differently and still do a great job, there's no guidebook or template.

On the other hand, yes, one set of parents could make terrible choices and fail...you seem to think there's a standard set of methods by which parents can raise their kids.

And in the end, who said one set of parents can't be wrong? I already stated there are awful parents out there...and what? Tell us what your solution is...is it to ask kids perverted questions in school behind the parents'' back?

Put them in care?

Just assume off the bat that all parents will fail and the answer is to step in and parent for them? Exactly what do you invisage happening?

Your whole argument seems to be based on assumptions, what ifs, maybes and catchy sayings and quotes.

Life is, in the grand scheme and context, chaotic and random, there's no predicting how kids will turn out until they grow up and turn out. It's not up to you, me, the government or schools to dictate how kids be raised.

You seem to be longing for some orwellian utopia where everything is perfect...what we in the real world call 'cloud cuckoo land'

a reply to: Aazadan

No...you're simply too warped to understand.

You have your ideas of what's right and they're apparently set in stone...it's not my place to change your mind or convince you of anything...all I'm doing is disagreeing with you.

I blame my parents

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
So...my parents had good intentions...are you saying they've failed in some way?

Probably, yes. Can you say they did everything perfectly? Or did they screw up in some way with you?

Do you base all of your opinions on stupid sayings and quotes? You're basically asserting, in a roundabout way, that parents will inevitably do the opposite to what they intend, based on some saying.

No, I just have high standards for anyone in an authority position. That applies to everything from parents, to bosses, to politicians, if you expect the best out of someone you're in charge of, you owe them nothing less than absolute perfection in return. It's not that people will always do the opposite from what they intend, but rather that intentions, actions, and results all rarely align. Go look at the number of teenage parents out there. Did their parents want that to happen? Did they try to prevent it? Most of them did, but they didn't take the proper actions to prevent it. Groups of people are more likely to get something correct than individuals.
It might hold true for you, but you don't speak for everyone.

I look at my own family, friends...a lot of people I know, they've tried to do right by their kids and pretty much all done a decent job. Nobody is perfect, sure people make mistakes. That's life...where does it end?

Do you agree with every parenting decision they've all made? If there's a disagreement it means either you, them, or both are wrong. If you're in agreement, you still haven't proven that you made the right choice.

Why don't the authorities simply take peoples kids from them and put them into care? What exactly do you want, here?

People who are experts in a subject to make the decisions on that subject. I'm a big fan of meritocracies.

a reply to: Aazadan

This should be enlightening..tell us, what actions can a parent take to ensure their kids don't have children while they're teenagers?

Castration? Sterilisation? You talk about how authority figures should want to get the best from their subjects as if the people you want to see being raised to well are some kind of commodity...you're talking about people here.

You know, free will? You understand that concept, right?

And in the end who defines the standards you wish to hold everyone up to? Politicians? the establishment, the authority figures you apprently place to much faith and trust in?

Are these 'authority' figures and people of power not flawed like the rest of us? Incapable of making poor choices just like your average subject?

You talk about people like they're cattle...you want everyone to parent in a uniform way?

I genuinely cannot belive people like you are real.

Probably, yes. Can you say they did everything perfectly? Or did they screw up in some way with you?

Ok, firstly - I've never been arrested or in trouble, I didn't have kids as a teenager - I've worked since I left school, am reasonably educated and my parents seem to be proud of myself and my siblings...did they make mistakes? Of course they did, they're human beings.

I made mistakes, too....doesn't everyone? Have you? You seem hell-bent on imposing some set of standards on people...what gives you or anyone that right? Who says that your standards are even right? What you think it's proper or right might not be proper or right for everyone else...what happened to diversity?

No, I just have high standards for anyone in an authority position. That applies to everything from parents, to bosses, to politicians, if you expect the best out of someone you're in charge of, you owe them nothing less than absolute perfection in return. It's not that people will always do the opposite from what they intend, but rather that intentions, actions, and results all rarely align. Go look at the number of teenage parents out there. Did their parents want that to happen? Did they try to prevent it? Most of them did, but they didn't take the proper actions to prevent it. Groups of people are more likely to get something correct than individuals.
It might hold true for you, but you don't speak for everyone.

You're right - I don't speak for everyone nor am I trying to...it's you that's doing that.

Do you agree with every parenting decision they've all made? If there's a disagreement it means either you, them, or both are wrong. If you're in agreement, you still haven't proven that you made the right choice.

No, but they're free to think and act for themselves...who am I to think for them? They did what they did, like everyone else. You can't just assume control over the population on the premise that some people might, and most likely will make poor choices.

The message I'm getting from you is, you want some totalitarian state where people are told how to raise their kids.

What religions should people raise their kids with, if any? Who decides these standards?

What gives them the right to define these standards?

What is it about you that makes you think that if you believe something, everyone else should?

Wat you're postulating is, essentially, a dictatorship.

The funny thing is, some people have already tried to impose what you're suggesting, it's called Islam.

Why don't you join up and leave the rest of us to be human, make our own choices, think for ourselves, sometimes make mistakes?

It's called life, freedom...it don't always work but the alternatives are pretty drastic...have you actually tought about what you're saying here or just trying to be argumentative?

What makes your whole argument totally absurd are the facts...you seem to come from this position, this inherent belief that anyone who occupies an official position, a position of authority is somehow infallable and incapable of making poor choices.

Look up the boystown scandal - Franklin coverup. Look up Haute de la gurenne...look up the scandal in the UK where social services co-erced a group of kids into falsely alledging that they were victims of satanic ritual abuse.

If anything people should be less trusting of these so-called authorities that you invest so much faith and trust in...are you a teacher, do you occupy such a position? The notion that you do is quite a scary one.

some hold the church up as pillars of good and stand by the teachings of the bible, yet there are countless cases of kids being sexually abused by clergy...abused by 'carers' within the social system, abused by cops, lawyers, judges...you name it.

If you honestly believe the crap you just spouted you are one scary individual.

I don't have kids but if I did I'd go out of my way to keep them away from people like you. Authoritatian dictators who want to think and act on everyone's behalf...you're either trolling quite effectively, in which case kudos to you, or you're a dangerous person.

I'm out...you're actually making me angry. You're disgusting.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
You know, free will? You understand that concept, right?

I understand the concept. I don't believe it exists though.

And in the end who defines the standards you wish to hold everyone up to? Politicians? the establishment, the authority figures you apprently place to much faith and trust in?

Results, and experts.

Are these 'authority' figures and people of power not flawed like the rest of us? Incapable of making poor choices just like your average subject?

Many are. I never said I think most authority figures in place right now are infallible. But they do make fewer mistakes (in their field) than the average person does. You don't go to a plumber to fix your car. Why do you go to an (insert your profession) to raise a child?

You talk about people like they're cattle...you want everyone to parent in a uniform way?

Honestly, I don't know. Based on every single variation on parenting out there, there is a single optimal choice. If we could identify that and use it, each person would be brought up in the most optimal fashion humans are capable of achieving at this moment. This is a stronger short term solution, but will probably result in humans never progressing in the future... at least it doesn't disadvantage anyone. On the other hand, if you take a billion different approaches, some are going to excel, and those children will go on to teach their own children those better techniques in the future which ultimately will go on to create a higher ceiling. But at the same time, it also condemns a whole bunch of people to varying degrees of a suboptimal upbringing. This is much worse short term, but much better long term.

I don't know which is better. I'm probably not qualified to say. But as someone who has to share a society with both you and your children, I think I should have some say (certainly not the only say though) as to how they're brought up, as I'm one of the people that's going to have to get along with them.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
Ok, firstly - I've never been arrested or in trouble, I didn't have kids as a teenager - I've worked since I left school, am reasonably educated and my parents seem to be proud of myself and my siblings...did they make mistakes? Of course they did, they're human beings.

But what are you educated in? Does being educated in that field suddenly make you qualified to dictate how something is done in a different field? I've got some education as well, mainly having to do with computers but technically I'm a polymath (something I think we should empathize much more in society), that doesn't mean I'm qualified to dictate how we go about solving (or in some belief systems, verifying) global warming. Or determining proper age appropriate levels to expose various concepts to kids. That's for the people who are actually experts in those fields.

I made mistakes, too....doesn't everyone? Have you? You seem hell-bent on imposing some set of standards on people...what gives you or anyone that right? Who says that your standards are even right? What you think it's proper or right might not be proper or right for everyone else...what happened to diversity?

Not everyone. I can honestly say my dad didn't make a single mistake in raising either me or my two step sisters. Though that has given me a pretty high bar to measure others against. But yes, I've made mistakes... large and small. That's why I spend 12+ hours a day, every day without fail (and have since I was a child) studying to try and make fewer in the future. What I've found though is that one of lifes great ironies is that the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know anything. The 16 year old me would argue he had a much better understanding of life, the world, and everything than the 34 year old me would. I'm pretty sure that 10 years from now all of my thoughts towards how things should work will be different, just as they were 10 years ago.

You're right - I don't speak for everyone nor am I trying to...it's you that's doing that.

No I'm not. I'm simply making the argument that while parents generally want the best for their children, that doesn't necessarily qualify them to make the best decisions for their children. People are limited by their own ignorance and biases. Experts who don't have any emotional attachments to the person they're making decisions for, are the ones detached enough make a decision in the first place. I don't see how this is arguable, the argument comes down to if it should be parents who make the decisions regardless of it not being optimal, because at the same time it's also not cold and emotionless. Some parents for example take the view that because their child is ultimately their responsibility, it should be up to them to choose what the child is exposed to, regardless of the consequences. Some would say that's their parental duty. I would say doing anything to limit a child because of the shortcomings of a parent isn't fair to the child.

The message I'm getting from you is, you want some totalitarian state where people are told how to raise their kids.

Not at all. Only that we actually listen to advice from experts and pay attention to real life results. In the case of this OP, exposing kids at that age to sex ed has resulted in them making healthier choices later in life.

It's called life, freedom...it don't always work but the alternatives are pretty drastic...have you actually tought about what you're saying here or just trying to be argumentative?

Both.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
What makes your whole argument totally absurd are the facts...you seem to come from this position, this inherent belief that anyone who occupies an official position, a position of authority is somehow infallable and incapable of making poor choices.

Not at all. I've said numerous times that they make mistakes. They tend to make fewer mistakes relating to their field than the average person, but no one is perfect and some are quite far from being perfect. As I said, I believe in meritocracies. But, I also recognize that we don't live in one. Authority and competency don't correlate to each other. In this specific case though, there is a lot of evidence that the school made the right choice.

If anything people should be less trusting of these so-called authorities that you invest so much faith and trust in...are you a teacher, do you occupy such a position? The notion that you do is quite a scary one.

I am not. I've taught a few college classes (which had nothing to do with politics) but that's all.