Visa ban could make doctor shortage worse

I can understand the distress, however when you have 7,5million people who don't have jobs, surely investing in your own country/citizens would be a smart idea. Yes I know most if not all are not qualified doctors, technicians etc but surely it would make more sense to make sure your total population is put to work before worrying about "importing" from outside the country.

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: crankyoldman

More than 3,000 of the 13,000 physicians who hold active Iowa licenses were born outside the United States, according to the Iowa Board of Medicine, which regulates the profession. The largest group, 882, were born in India. But 172 were born in one of the seven predominantly Muslim countries that are subject to the temporary travel ban President Trump announced Friday.

172 Iowa doctors came from countries in Trump's travel ban

That is just in Iowa.

These were doctors that came here decades ago.....probably from Iran post 1979.

I doubt in the last few years, they have been cranking out that many docs from Yemen, or Somalia, or Sudan, or Syria, etc.

originally posted by: pheonix358
Well yes it is a problem but ......

Why the hell do the leaders of the free world, the most affluent society there is, the richest nation, with 300,000,000 people run out of doctors?

Because not enough Americans are entering medical school to become physicians - it takes four to ten years to become a medical doctor. And medical school is expensive. It's also hard... very hard.

It is far cheaper to bring in overseas help rather than pay your own people a decent wage for doctoring.

Foreigners who become physicians earn the same amount as American physicians that they work with.

I don't think the seven countries listed have half decent clinician training and education structures. In other words, I would not trust a Somali doctor with my worst enemy. Banning such doctors is probably good for the public.

originally posted by: paraphi
I don't think the seven countries listed have half decent clinician training and education structures. In other words, I would not trust a Somali doctor with my worst enemy. Banning such doctors is probably good for the public.

The ones who make it as physicians have passed the same exams as if they grew up here in America. details here

There's a lot of rules... here's two of them

Have competency in oral and written English;
Have passed either Parts I and II of the National Board of Medical Examiners Examination, the Foreign Medical Graduate Examination, Step I and Step II, or the Visa Qualifying Examination (VQE) prepared by the National Board of Medical Examiners, administered by the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates

In other words, they have to prove they have the same expertise and the same training. I've been to foreign-born physicians (as has my husband) and any number of folks have had them as surgeons and primary care physicians. The fact that clinics who hire these people don't have higher numbers of medical lawsuits is another indicator that they're as good as anyone else.

originally posted by: Byrd
The ones who make it as physicians have passed the same exams as if they grew up here in America.

I work with doctors. In the UK it is well known that foreign doctors have lower education and training thresholds, to the extent that trainee doctors from e.g. Indian medical schools are significantly more likely to fail training. One medical degree is not quality to another medical degree.

The issues are not just cultural and language, but the quality of medical qualifications are lower.

originally posted by: queenofswords

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: crankyoldman

More than 3,000 of the 13,000 physicians who hold active Iowa licenses were born outside the United States, according to the Iowa Board of Medicine, which regulates the profession. The largest group, 882, were born in India. But 172 were born in one of the seven predominantly Muslim countries that are subject to the temporary travel ban President Trump announced Friday.

172 Iowa doctors came from countries in Trump's travel ban

That is just in Iowa.

These were doctors that came here decades ago.....probably from Iran post 1979.

I doubt in the last few years, they have been cranking out that many docs from Yemen, or Somalia, or Sudan, or Syria, etc.

Correction: I actually meant PRE-1979, not post 1979.

originally posted by: TruMcCarthy
Do we get many doctors from these 7 countries?

What a thread..

I was under the impression there was a shortage because of universal healthcare and universally we as Americans are unhealthy. My experience with our new form of health care in America has been less than reassuring I can tell you that much.
On the flip side now these doctors will be forced to practice medicine in their respective country. Which last I checked probably has even worse Dr shortages than America.

Yet again I see the left failing to take all aspects and people into consideration here...
Screw those 3rd world'ers we need more Doctors for our fat a**es here in America...
Right?
Not saying I totally agree with the ban as it is.
But...
Good god people! Lets try to take all aspects of things like this into consideration before we inject more fear into an already hysterical terrified population. Does the left want chaos?!?!

a reply to: paraphi

I work with doctors doesn't validate anything. You could be a cleaner in a GP surgery for all we know. Have you any sources to support your view? Which foreign countries are you referring to?

Post-truth seems to be rampant on ATS these days. We need facts, nots opinions.

Maybe we should abolish the corporate control system that allows mass immigration which promotes racial miscegnation, and then we could incentivize Americans to become doctors.

originally posted by: Morrad
I work with doctors doesn't validate anything.

I work in junior doctor education and training in the UK. I see the statistics. Trainee doctors from medical schools outside of the UK and the EEA are more likely to fail exams and training, and require expensive remedial training, or for the NHS to write off the investment by failing the trainee. Basically, the quality of medical graduate training is higher than in Mumbai.

BBC report

Figures published by the RCGP show that 65.3% of foreign-trained GPs failed their first attempt at the CSA in 2011-12, compared with 9.9% of medical graduates who studied in the UK.

The highest failure rates taking the GP exams are for candidates trained in South Asia, with 69.4% of candidates failing their first attempt at the CSA.

There are several reports of this type

This report demonstrates no examination discrimination., or bias, contrary to the accusations as to why so many failures.

a reply to: paraphi

Thank you for taking the time to post this. I will look at the report over the weekend.

a reply to: pheonix358

Are we training American doctors then they leave because of wages? Or are we not training American doctors because most can't afford the long years of education?

Total Number of Medical School Graduates in the US a year

18,705

I am sure that they can fill the spot that the foreigners are leaving behind.

Is about darn time.

kff.org...

Here are some interesting facts from a study from Fox Business News why a doctor shortage:

"Physicians are in short supply already and by 2025 the U.S. will need between 61,700 and 94,700 doctors with a significant shortage among specialists. This according to new research from the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC)."

"“The majority of the reason is demographics,” Janis Orlowski, M.D., Chief Health Care Officer at AAMC tells FOXBusiness.com. “The number of people over the age of 65 is expected to go up by 40% to 45% within the next 10 years.”


"The study estimates the shortfalls will run as high as 35,600 primary care physicians and 60,300 physicians among non-primary care specialties."

"“Most residency positions are paid for by the federal government but there’s been a freeze on those slot numbers for 20 years,” she adds."

"AAMC says it is vital that Congress steps in and increases their federal support for new doctor training.

“It can take up to 10 years to train a doctor, our nation needs to act now,” says Kirch.

www.foxbusiness.com...

a reply to: MOMof3

Sadly is also an issue of quality care, MOM, here in the my neck of the woods the monopoly hospital we have is heavily into foreign doctors from India.

Interestingly the hospital has decline in care, they rank number 10 in the nation in mortality rates, the rates of skin eating disease is a problem and already is been law sues because of too many malpractices.

I avoid them like a plague.

And they are the only major hospital in the area, because they have manage to kill the competition, now due to law uses we may get a new another hospital soon, how soon maybe in the next 5 years, but no soon enough.

a reply to: marg6043

If you want to catch a bad bug, spend some time in a hospital now a days. A lot of elderly die in hospitals from infections.

The hands-down best doctors I've ever had were not Americans. The worst ones were Americans. The best I ever had was my childhood family doc, he was Iranian (I was under the impression for years that he was Indian, come to find out nope. oops) The best GPs I've had as an adult were a Honduran who was practically an Everybody's Grandma personality, the best ped my kids have had was a Russian dude. The best OB I had was a Canadian guy, so laid back (haha, unintentional pun)
Even our pets' best vets have been foreigners with excellent bedside manners, an Kuwaiti lady and a Russian lady (Russians man, they provide good quality time with their patients, humans or not, it seems)

I've had such s#ty experiences with American-born doctors that I make an effort to seek foreign-born ones. The American bedside manner is just rotten.

a reply to: Nyiah

I guess if you pay for insurance, you have the right to chose you doctor.