Did Paul Invent Christianity?

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

How adult of you, and Pauline.

You are just avoiding answering my question in my previous comment.

And mad about my comment about you, which was true already but you just verified it was again.

You have NO god given right to release me from anything. Nor, any god given right to put such stipulations upon me.

How MANY questions have you avoided answering from me? (think it's numbering about 100 now.

Sorry Seth,
The above wasn't meant for you...but, Chester.
I hit the wrong post in reply.

Hey Matrix.. I've read enough to say I agree with you. But really, I can tell you're better than this. There is love still, and specially for the truth, in your responses. It makes me weep that anyone would fling a term of "Jesus Only" in an accusing, derogatory tone. That you would have to defend the simple truth a child could understand. How far they are from the truth. Paul is responsible for much of what the atrocious church is today. What an embarrassment and horror worshiping a brutal god that goes by His name. It will be torn down and rebuilt because the foundation stone isn't there. It was rejected. And it's probably the same stone this man is rejecting along with the 'Jesus Only' followers. The HS is being poured out now but you wouldn't know it. Most have left or never were in a church. But it is the Awakening. And it will be Jesus only but probably not at all what you think.
But I'm with you.

a reply to: JerryMH

I am more amazed by the day at how many people have woke up to the plain truth that Paul was or whoever is behind his writings (I put my money, all of it, on Marcion) was in fact the enemy of James and Peter especially but the whole movement of Jesus until he wrote his last word.

He didn't even hide it, called them false apostles who resemble Satan masquerading as an an angel of light and had derogatory terms for them like ''circumcision faction" and "Judaizers" while James response to Pauline faith only soteriology was:

"Do you want to be shown, you senseless man, faith without works is dead"?

James speaks of the dangers of the tongue, two kinds of wisdom, of friendship with the world and says about faith ''Even the demons believe --and shudder." immediately before my last quote.

The general epistles are indeed thinly veiled anti Pauline theology polemics that got past the relatively unlettered Church fathers and made the Canon, as did heaps of hints that Paul is not what he claims or the churches claim and actually represents one faction of an early religion with Acts as the bridge attempting to connect the two historically opposed factions.

The Gospels are all from distinct sects and not one and heavily redacted and interpolated writings, Matthew comes from the Ebionites though it didn't have a virgin birth, had the Holy Spirit as Jesus Mother and Jesus only the adopted Son of God at baptism.

Mark is somewhat docetic and I suspect of Marcionite origin rather than Luke, I do not think that the author of Acts, if the same author as Luke or not, was sympathetic to Paul's theology but hid it by being very subtle and the Gospel of Luke is from an unknown source like the other all anonymous Gospels but I think it was a Greek or Roman for sure, which Luke was if not Syrian (I'm not sure actually) and educated enough to make errors on purpose to draw attention to the fact that Paul and the Jews, including Nazarenes, were enemies and the Jews who took a vow to not eat until Paul was dead were probably both Pharisees and Nazarenes as according to the Gospel Hebrew Matthew and the Clementine Homilies, Acts too, they were friends.

That was likely the most significant interpolation, that the Pharisees were so evil, because Rome was pretty anti Semitic.

It's all the answer to the question; "Why isn't the Catholic or Christian Church full of Jews if it started as a Jewish religion?"

Paul was the catalyst for anti Semitism in the Roman Empire with his heavily anti Semitic writings.

I believe in God Most High, call Him Father or Allah, but I can't stretch my imagination to the point of believing that Jesus is God. He never made that claim, he denied it. "My God and your God." was spoken by Jesus, and God doesn't have a God, just Jesus, who denied being good as "Only God is good" in a stern rebuke.

I marvel at the level of liar one must rise to in order to teach Jesus is God when he himself denied it in the New Testament several times. Either that or you must not be well acquainted with the Bible, because it's a messed up book. It actually doesn't teach much of what the churches teach at all and actually distorts Judaism and itself.

I think it is more about socializing or guilt than seeking truth or Jesus the Nazarene.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

How adult of you, and Pauline.

You are just avoiding answering my question in my previous comment.

And mad about my comment about you, which was true already but you just verified it was again.

You have NO god given right to release me from anything. Nor, any god given right to put such stipulations upon me.

How MANY questions have you avoided answering from me? (think it's numbering about 100 now.

I think you quoted the wrong person because I sent that message to Chester John.

I hope so.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: SethTsaddik
How does one know anything that happened in history when it can so easily be forged? But yes emperor Constantine was one of the major and primary players to kickof Christianity into what it is today. Not that it did not exist before he came around, or even before the old Roman empire was crumbling, because it did in some form and some fashion, but that form and fashion is not what we have today.

And if Paul existed or did not exist? Does it matter when the whole thing is and was make believe? What proof is there of an omnipresent omniscient god? Very little, proof. But there is plenty of proof that hairless monkeys like to make things up for the sake of sanity and control.

I think all of history was made up or created to put a better face on the sad truths and facts that are not so pretty. Its a constantly changing and even sometimes once in a great while evolving thing. To argue about whose make believes are right is folly....Because...There all wrong...And they all only paint there own version of a picture that a particular peoples at one time wanted to see.

Despite all that is added and said or created after the fact. It and even if it is believed, it merely remains after the fact. Popular opinion, and even educated popular opinion, is what most of history is.

Why are you asking me all these questions, it's not even my thread and my opinion about Paul is obviously low whether he existed or not?

I hear yeah, I just don't know why you chose to ask me all these questions that lead nowhere tbh. It's possible that most of history is a lie so religion would be no better if it asserted itself as true and history, literally interpreting its fantastic tales.

But Christianity does just that so it is only fair to question it.

originally posted by: JerryMH
Hey Matrix.. I've read enough to say I agree with you. But really, I can tell you're better than this. There is love still, and specially for the truth, in your responses. It makes me weep that anyone would fling a term of "Jesus Only" in an accusing, derogatory tone. That you would have to defend the simple truth a child could understand. How far they are from the truth. Paul is responsible for much of what the atrocious church is today. What an embarrassment and horror worshiping a brutal god that goes by His name. It will be torn down and rebuilt because the foundation stone isn't there. It was rejected. And it's probably the same stone this man is rejecting along with the 'Jesus Only' followers. The HS is being poured out now but you wouldn't know it. Most have left or never were in a church. But it is the Awakening. And it will be Jesus only but probably not at all what you think.
But I'm with you.

Thank you, kind sir. I'm sorry for being so cantankerous at times. Honestly, my heart is totally broken over the deceptions that abound, this world with so much beauty...and death. I stand and look around and want to cry most days.
I get angry...at all the suffering. I also get angry at those who defend a god of such bloodthirsty tendencies...and a false apostle who supports him.
It really blows my mind that " Christians" defend him...and that god.
Anyway, thank you again. I sure hope you're right. Cause I really want to believe there's something better to look forward.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

How adult of you, and Pauline.

You are just avoiding answering my question in my previous comment.

And mad about my comment about you, which was true already but you just verified it was again.

You have NO god given right to release me from anything. Nor, any god given right to put such stipulations upon me.

How MANY questions have you avoided answering from me? (think it's numbering about 100 now.

I think you quoted the wrong person because I sent that message to Chester John.

I hope so.

Oh...you can be sure. I definitely didn't mean that to go to you.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

since when is compassion hypocrisy? Say what you want you did not even try to follow the teaching and the reason is it would be of great hurt to you and your family. I explained why that teaching would not work today and as those who practiced it in the past found them selves needing help from Paulinians as you can them, but in reality they were Christians, who gave to support them who were without because they gave all and had nothing to live on. Living in common soon runs out that is why socialism and communism, wont work today.

It is a teaching for a time that never came yet, if you are there you will see that I am right in what I explained. Jesus will judge immediately on those actions. We are not to questioning in that day, we are just to do as commanded and let Jesus take the matters into his own hands. But here I am still able to type and go on with my life not cut off because we are not in the kingdom where those teachings will be practiced.

Remember, we are never told why the one would strike the other on the cheek, but if it happens in the kingdom, we are to turn to him the other, If he is wrong in his actions of striking on the cheek before he can strike the other cheek he will be cut off from the kingdom immediately.

There are two examples, One of Jesus and one of Paul being struck on the cheek and neither of them followed the teaching given in Matthew Five. Yes that is right not even Jesus turned the other cheek, But replied

John 18:22-23 And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so? Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?

So if Jesus didn't follow that teaching it is because of two things. Either Jesus was a hypocrite or the teaching was for a different time and place.

Paul too didn't follow that teaching. But then you would say because Paul was a liar and didn't follow Jesus anyway.

If we were in the kingdom today, most likely I would have been cut off from the kingdom because my motive was not right. Only Jesus could judge my heart.

I do think it is important that all people who claim the name of Christ test the faith they claim to have in Jesus. I have never prayed in the name of Paul. I have never trusted in Paul to save me. Paul did not die for me, Paul was never resurrected for me. But Jesus was and it is important to know that god loved us so much that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Sorry to have offended you. Maybe one day you will see the truth.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Yes that is right not even Jesus turned the other cheek

You do realize turning the other cheek simply means "do not retaliate"

It doesn't mean you actually offer the other side of your face to be struck

and in your example... Jesus did not retaliate, nor did he ever...

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Salvation Army and Calvary Chapel Ministries just to name two. Go to any Baptist church many have food pantries and benevolence funds.

Grace, very interesting, seeing it is actually faith alone that I profess. Not Grace alone.

There are elements of salvation found in scriptures that are to be used at a given time. (up to you to find out which is for which).

1) Faith, works, and grace. Have faith in God do as instructed (works), in the end you will receive his grace of salvation.

2) Faith, grace and works. Have faith in God through Jesus Christ cross, receive God Grace of Salvation and good works will follow as a natural result of Salvation.

3) Works and grace. Do what is required and obey Christ and in the judgement if you do it with a right heart you may just receive God's grace of Salvation.

The last being without faith for they will see Christ. That should help you a little to figure out which is for today a little easier. A little right division will help you figure it out. But hey don't expect you to follow that seeing it is instruction from God given through inspiration to Paul, your hated object in this thread.

These three elements are always at work in the first two forms and they are pre kingdom. After that there will be no faith involved.

PM me your Name, address, Phone number. But remember I am just like you the only one working in my household, for only $10.35 per hour for 40 hours a week, I have $650 a month house payment, $120 phone and internet service, I just paid off my $683 real estate tax, My electric is $185 a month on the budget plan, Water is $90 every two months, Plus I pay for gasoline for an old 97 ford aero star van and a 98 chevy metro whic is about $70 per month. I pay $300 a month for me and my wife of 19 years medical insurance, my kids are on medicaid because I don't make enough to pay for them, I get $120 a month in food stamps, I have other expenses a month that reach at least $200 per month. So as you can see I don't have anything left over at the end of the month to save, let alone to send you any money. And I still manage to get a little cat food for the golden tabby that sits on our porch since we moved in. Only recently he lets me pet him and I could see all his teeth are gone on one side of his mouth, he has some kind o obstruction in his nasal possibly from an injury he sustained which causes him to bleed from his nose once or twice a week. Today I saw he not only bleeds from his nose but blood came out of his tear ducts as well. He may not live much longer in this condition but I think he knows we care for him.

But I thank Jesus everyday, that my bills are paid, we are all healthy, My disabled son is doing better with his language and motor skills, we have roof over our heads and food in our bellies. I count all our blessings one by one and I continue to see that Jesus has done for us.

I do pray for you.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

you're released form following Jesus teachings you hold so dear. But of course you would never have followed it anyway. You proved that by playing the I am so poor routine. A true follower would have proved it in the light but you hid in darkness and lies. As coomba98 says you are a Padawan.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Salvation Army and Calvary Chapel Ministries just to name two. Go to any Baptist church many have food pantries and benevolence funds.

Grace, very interesting, seeing it is actually faith alone that I profess. Not Grace alone.

There are elements of salvation found in scriptures that are to be used at a given time. (up to you to find out which is for which).

1) Faith, works, and grace. Have faith in God do as instructed (works), in the end you will receive his grace of salvation.

2) Faith, grace and works. Have faith in God through Jesus Christ cross, receive God Grace of Salvation and good works will follow as a natural result of Salvation.

3) Works and grace. Do what is required and obey Christ and in the judgement if you do it with a right heart you may just receive God's grace of Salvation.

The last being without faith for they will see Christ. That should help you a little to figure out which is for today a little easier. A little right division will help you figure it out. But hey don't expect you to follow that seeing it is instruction from God given through inspiration to Paul, your hated object in this thread.

These three elements are always at work in the first two forms and they are pre kingdom. After that there will be no faith involved.

PM me your Name, address, Phone number. But remember I am just like you the only one working in my household, for only $10.35 per hour for 40 hours a week, I have $650 a month house payment, $120 phone and internet service, I just paid off my $683 real estate tax, My electric is $185 a month on the budget plan, Water is $90 every two months, Plus I pay for gasoline for an old 97 ford aero star van and a 98 chevy metro whic is about $70 per month. I pay $300 a month for me and my wife of 19 years medical insurance, my kids are on medicaid because I don't make enough to pay for them, I get $120 a month in food stamps, I have other expenses a month that reach at least $200 per month. So as you can see I don't have anything left over at the end of the month to save, let alone to send you any money. And I still manage to get a little cat food for the golden tabby that sits on our porch since we moved in. Only recently he lets me pet him and I could see all his teeth are gone on one side of his mouth, he has some kind o obstruction in his nasal possibly from an injury he sustained which causes him to bleed from his nose once or twice a week. Today I saw he not only bleeds from his nose but blood came out of his tear ducts as well. He may not live much longer in this condition but I think he knows we care for him.

But I thank Jesus everyday, that my bills are paid, we are all healthy, My disabled son is doing better with his language and motor skills, we have roof over our heads and food in our bellies. I count all our blessings one by one and I continue to see that Jesus has done for us.

I do pray for you.

Honestly, I don't want anything from you, Chester. But, I would like to send you some help financially. It won't be much, but I will send what I can. I mean that sincerely.

a reply to: Akragon

Yeah, just keep telling your self it is all allegory and make it anything but the doctrines of God.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I don't need it. Jesus supplies as we need. I may not have much but what I have i owe all to Jesus because of the inspired teachings of god given to Paul.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Will do...

and of course you keep with your separation doctrine... and your dead faith... alone lol

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I don't need it. Jesus supplies as we need. I may not have much but what I have i owe all to Jesus because of the inspired teachings of god given to Paul.

I am probably considered your enemy.. However, I am offering you help. I really don't mind doing it, either.
I truly want to help you. It doesn't matter to me if we agree or not.
God works through people, best to my knowledge. I am willing to give to your family and you, Chester.




And I'd really love to help your kitty, too. (and your son)

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Padawan Matrixsurvivor

As coomba98 says you are a Padawan.

Hey Chester,

Thats Master Coomba to the Padawans. 😉

Coomba98

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Will do...

and of course you keep with your separation doctrine... and your dead faith... alone lol

Hi, Akragon.I can't tell if you're using sarcasm here or not.(#3?)

ChesterJohn has raised some good points in this thread.I'm still getting to know him better, though he appears to express a more conventional perspective on this topic.I'm chiming in here, because I've found his points about the different ways to look at the gospel relevant.Paul's writings may make more sense, depending on where one is in their own spiritual development.I feel like writing some more about this, time permitting.

a reply to: dffrntkndfnml



I think you may either misunderstand ChesterJohn's views on the New Testament.

He believes in two different Gospels, one for the Jews and one for Gentiles.

This is because the doctines of the two do not agree with each other, the rather than admit the obvious, that Paul was not an apostle, didn't know Jesus, wasn't even liked by the Nazarenes and was actually their enemy, pretended to convert and corrupted their doctrine unrecognizably.

So to rationalize away the plain simple facts that are noticeable in the New Testament, he pretends that their are two different Gospels and that both are true for their respective races.

When only one can be true and the other a lie, according to the New Testament itself AND Paul AND the Apostles.

So if you think he makes sense I have much sympathy for you. Opinions are of course your right, but facts (as in what the NT says) prove your opinion wrong by simply reading the NT without bias.

I would honestly find someone else to agree with if you are a Christian because even among Christians ChesterJohn's beliefs are fringe.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

since when is compassion hypocrisy? Say what you want you did not even try to follow the teaching and the reason is it would be of great hurt to you and your family. I explained why that teaching would not work today and as those who practiced it in the past found them selves needing help from Paulinians as you can them, but in reality they were Christians, who gave to support them who were without because they gave all and had nothing to live on. Living in common soon runs out that is why socialism and communism, wont work today.

It is a teaching for a time that never came yet, if you are there you will see that I am right in what I explained. Jesus will judge immediately on those actions. We are not to questioning in that day, we are just to do as commanded and let Jesus take the matters into his own hands. But here I am still able to type and go on with my life not cut off because we are not in the kingdom where those teachings will be practiced.

Remember, we are never told why the one would strike the other on the cheek, but if it happens in the kingdom, we are to turn to him the other, If he is wrong in his actions of striking on the cheek before he can strike the other cheek he will be cut off from the kingdom immediately.

There are two examples, One of Jesus and one of Paul being struck on the cheek and neither of them followed the teaching given in Matthew Five. Yes that is right not even Jesus turned the other cheek, But replied

John 18:22-23 And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so? Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?

So if Jesus didn't follow that teaching it is because of two things. Either Jesus was a hypocrite or the teaching was for a different time and place.

Paul too didn't follow that teaching. But then you would say because Paul was a liar and didn't follow Jesus anyway.

If we were in the kingdom today, most likely I would have been cut off from the kingdom because my motive was not right. Only Jesus could judge my heart.

I do think it is important that all people who claim the name of Christ test the faith they claim to have in Jesus. I have never prayed in the name of Paul. I have never trusted in Paul to save me. Paul did not die for me, Paul was never resurrected for me. But Jesus was and it is important to know that god loved us so much that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Sorry to have offended you. Maybe one day you will see the truth.

I accidentally starred a Chester John comment, I must repent.