Okay, Which one is correct then?

a reply to: Akragon

It's not the wrong word, Almah as I showed above is translated as "virgin" 4 times in the OT, not only in Isaiah 7:14, the word you showed for virgin according to the Hebrew lexicon is actually the word for "virginity". It's two words, same as we have in English.

We say virginity for the abstract concept at large of sex before marriage, but we don't say that an individual who hasn't had sex is a virginity, we say that person is a virgin.

a reply to: Akragon

So tell me then on messenger. No biggie.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

It's not the wrong word, Almah as I showed above is translated as "virgin"

Above?

Like... in the clouds?

a reply to: Akragon

No dude, I said previously that I edited my post after/while you was replying. You have to scroll back. I showed there are other places in the OT where Almah is translated "virgin". I linked the Hebrew lexicon for H5959 too, that's almah.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

No dude, I said previously that I edited my post after/while you was replying. You have to scroll back. I showed there are other places in the OT where Almah is translated "virgin". I linked the Hebrew lexicon for H5959 too, that's almah.

Yes.. other places...

but not Only places like the alternative word...

a reply to: Akragon

But the word you brought up is translated "virginity", it's for the abstract concept of not having sex before (virginity), "almah" in Isaiah 7:14 and the other passages is translated "virgin", meaning a person/individual who hasn't had sex before.

We do the exact same thing in English, obviously. We have virgin for a person who hasn't had sex, and we use the word virginity for the impersonal concept itself. Even further it's worth pointing out that when the 70 Hebrew scholars translated the Hebrew Tenakh into the Greek Septuagint, they used the word for virgin in Isaiah 7:14. This was done 3 centuries before Christ was born.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Really? You can not accept the fact that it WAS mistranslated and inappropriately applied to the Messiah ?

Damn. That is just the truth. It is not a Messianic prophecy to begin with and was mistralated and misapplied to Jesus.

Denial helps nothing. Neither does inventing excuses, a virtual industry in Christianity.

A million falsehoods don't add up to any fraction of truth.

But the truth needs no defense. Christianity as a whole recognizes this as an error and accepts it, academically speaking.

Only the fanatics still believe b.s. like that. Like Israeli archeologists admitting Moses and Abraham and David and Solomon are all fictional doesn't hurt Judaism one bit because the truth is what it is.

Christianity is always making up excuses for its flaws when it should admit them and evolve.

Grow up a little bit. Catholicism basically admitted that they actually have no idea who wrote the New Testament and it hasn't hurt them one bit.

Why is it that "Babylon" can admit the truth but the 'true" Christians just can't won't do it ever?

a reply to: DaathSader

Nothing was mistranslated. The same word that is translated as "virgin" here in Isaiah 7:14 is also translated as virgin in 4 OTHER PLACES in the OT. And it was translated into Greek by the 70 top Hebrew scholars as virgin in the Septuagint version and that was compiled almost 2 centuries before Christ was born.

Those are facts. You can't expect anyone to believe that 70 Hebrew scholars and rabbis conspired to mistranslate a verse in Isaiah to make it look like the Messiah would be born of a virgin to make a sneaky edit for the Christians 2 centuries before Jesus was born. That's absurd.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I can't believe you actually are going to deny that a mistranslation happened and say "nothing" was mistralated.

What you say is false.

Everyone knows this. Only fanatics deny it.

Not that it is your fault and I certainly have no desire to insult you but what you just said insults the intelligence of everyone who has faced facts without bias.

The mistranslation happened, it is a fact.

You can have your opinion, but the fact remains that almah has nothing to do with virginity and simply means a young girl (who may or may not be a virgin).

In addition the prophecy itself is something that happened in Isaiah's generation not 500 years later.

Virgin birth is just not a Hebrew concept and you know this.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

That 70 scholar story is specific to the Pentateuch/Torah buddy.

Greeks did the rest on there own.

What planet are you from?

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: DaathSader

Nothing was mistranslated. The same word that is translated as "virgin" here in Isaiah 7:14 is also translated as virgin in 4 OTHER PLACES in the OT. And it was translated into Greek by the 70 top Hebrew scholars as virgin in the Septuagint version and that was compiled almost 2 centuries before Christ was born.

Those are facts. You can't expect anyone to believe that 70 Hebrew scholars and rabbis conspired to mistranslate a verse in Isaiah to make it look like the Messiah would be born of a virgin to make a sneaky edit for the Christians 2 centuries before Jesus was born. That's absurd.

What is actually absurd is that you are calling Jews Rabbis before the advent of Rabbinical Judaism.

And that you are so confident, yet don't know that the legend (or myth) of the 70 doesn't even apply to Isaiah because only the Torah was translated by Hebrews.

And that you throw around the word fact without being factual.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I don't know where you fet the idea that almah means virgin but it doesn't now or then mean virgin and was a mistranslation.

Not by Jews, by Greeks.

So you need to reexamine the issue from a neutral perspective because you are bias and misled by errors.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I will add to that also that there is another word : Naarah

naarah: a girl, maiden
Original Word: נַעֲרָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: naarah
Phonetic Spelling: (nah-ar-aw')
Short Definition: girl

So if they wanted to say a young girl would have used the word above but they didn´t. Instead they used "Almah" which means as you said

almah: a young woman, a virgin
Original Word: עַלְמָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: almah
Phonetic Spelling: (al-maw')
Short Definition: maidens

The above carries the same meaning of "bethulah". In other words, the Bible uses the word "almah" in various passages to refer to young unmarried women who were culturally and religiously expected to be virgins.

Unless of course someone wants to argue that Rebekah Genesis 24:16 was a 30+ year old Virgin and not an "Almah".

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

What kind of b.s. website did get that definition from?

You need to get better sources because that is just not true at all.

Almah doesn't have anything to do with virginity just a young girl.

Whatever wherever you got that definition from is, I guarantee , connected to apologetics.

a reply to: forthelove

Wow, like moths to a flame,have you no shame? Religion is a game. They manipulate you and cajole you, brainwash and console you, to what end? Believe anything just because some supposed holy scripture was embedded in a book, holiness is next to godliness, okay, there is common sense and there is nonsense, guess which one the bible follows? For those of you that think it is necessary to bow down and pray ask yourself, why? How does it actually change anything? It doesn't, because the world we live in is full of crap and any god would just be laughing at you, get real, open your eyes, heaven and hell are a big disguise, no such places exist, only in the figment of your blindness.

starting with Wikipedia almah means:

A young woman of childbearing age who may (but does not have to be) an unmarried virgin or a married young woman.

So an almah can be any young girl, married or virgin.

But it is actually a moot point because this passage has nothing to do with Jesus or the Messiah to come.

It was fulfilled in Isaiah's generation.

Even the website CARM (Christian apologetics) says this:

In Hebrew means maiden, not virgin

Isaiah 7:14 CARM

How much longer are people going to deny the fact that the Bible is not perfect?

Even apologetics admit it!! Matt Slick is the name of the guy who writes for that website and is not my favorite person at all, but at least he admits that almah doesn't mean virgin.

Bethulah is the Hebrew word for virgin. Isaiah would have used it if he wanted to make it known that virgin will give birth because that is the word for virgin.

Get on with it people it doesn't mean you have to quit being a Christian that is not very strong faith if can't admit the honest truth because you can't believe in Jesus and believe that the Bible is imperfect.

a reply to: forthelove

use whatever works for you and lie about the alternative.....oops...I let the cat out of the bag...Sorry...what was i thinking....religion is good....come..sheep....I am your shepherd

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: In4ormant

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: In4ormant

"Was"

What changed your beliefs?

Hypocrisy... mainly

Contradictions In Christianity as opposed to what Jesus said.

and too much studying lol

I actually was told recently by a pastor that i studied the word TOO MUCH...

Funny because said person turned out to be one of the worst people i've ever met

How much were you studying?

What hypocrisy do you mean?

Its pretty much all i did back then... the bible, religious texts from other religions... but mainly early Christianity

This has been my reading list for so many years...

www.earlychristianwritings.com...

And theres a few other sites as well... I've read pretty much everything on that list...

The hypocrisy came from the people in the church, and those that claim to be Christian... I just realized that i wasn't like them at all... i genuinely care for people, whereas most went to church and claimed their titles for appearance sake... or to be able to hold something over other people

As IF making your sunday appearance makes you a good person

what a joke

I have had this awesome website as a shortcut on my cell phone and have bought most of the books on it, my prize possessions.

Good to see someone else who knows about it because it's got everything. Christianity was a diverse range of communities with tons of literature that nobody knows about. Sad really.

Have you read early church fathers 1-8?

I only deal with ante-nicene literature and only the versions with Clements of Rome and Alexandria.

H&R is my "Bible." almost 900 pages of Nazarene writings.

Well I am glad that this issue is settled because one thing in the world that I can't tolerate is intellectual dishonesty.

And people trying to alter the truth to support a myth.

I think it is entirely possible to be a disciple of Jesus without believing in the virgin birth.

What is important is what he taught was morality, honesty, love.

If you spend your time defending the mythology of Jesus you should stop and start reading what he taught.

It's way more important than virgin births and insisting that impossible things really happened.

You can not prove or disprove it. Ever.

That part of history is gone, what we have is the teachings of Jesus. Myth, history, it doesn't matter if you just follow his teachings you will have a good life. No need to swear oaths that he ressurected and all that virgin birth God in the flesh crap.

a reply to: Seed76

Not only there is Almah translated as "virgin", but also two places in Song of Solomon, verses 1:3 and 6:8.

I'll link to Strong's Hebrew Concordance again, J guess it was missed the last time:

"Almah" - Strong's #G5959

Twice the Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew Tenakh into Greek, called the Septuagint in 200 BC translated "Almah" to "parthenos" in the Greek. It was Isaiah 7:14 and Genesis 23:48.


This is hilarious, even the Jews translated ha'Almah from Hebrew into "parthenos" in the Greek. And this was 200 years before Jesus was born.