Chicago Public Schools Now Forcing Students To Use Requested Transgender Pronouns

originally posted by: Kali74
Save the pronouns!

Another prime example of ATS Conservatives running around like chickens with their heads cut off, panicked over yet another gross exaggeration by right wing spin.

It truly can't be that hard to acknowledge a person as they wish to be acknowledged, can it?

I don't like the name Bob so every Bob I meet must accept the fact that it's against my beliefs to call him Bob and take on the name Tim in my presence otherwise Tim is a PC snowflake trying to oppress me.

Word. You said it, sister.
But in the long run, what I wonder about is when you get arrested, and then convicted of a crime.

Where do you do the time? I suppose if you are Bruce Jenner the answer is simple.
But don't tell me this never happens. To trannies. I watch Cops Reloaded™. I'm hip.

I guess if we're this worried about (back on topic, sorry) potty time,
then certainly we've got hard time all sussed out
...you just go to the gender jail cell
that you self identify with.

But would it not really suck, and really really hard, if you were nabbed while transitioning,
because then you'd need a special jail cell? Do you get wifi, and facebook in jail?

Who knows...maybe Freija? I hope I spelled that correctly. Little help please.

# 644

originally posted by: Kali74
It truly can't be that hard to acknowledge a person as they wish to be acknowledged, can it?

There is a clear difference between acknowledging a person as they wish in a private setting and expecting the majority of people to change protocol to accommodate a tiny minority.

If I prefer for people to call me "Rasputin" instead of my real name, I can expect so in a private setting. However, when it comes to the law and public context, we all need to abide by rules and regulations and cannot will for the law to recognise me as Rasputin — unless I legally change my name to that.

What is really happening is we are complicating things that don't need to complicated, which makes information harder and more time-consuming to classify. While I think it's silly, I don't personally object to Facebook making the sign-up process longer and more tedious by including 30+ types of gender categories or whatever, but I DO oppose doing so for legal documentation and real-life scenarios where people need to be classified or referred to in a certain way to maintain accuracy and authenticity.

a reply to: TheWhiteKnight

On the miles long list of things we actually need to worry about... where do you place your query?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

There is a clear difference between acknowledging a person as they wish in a private setting and expecting the majority of people to change protocol to accommodate a tiny minority.

Why do you suppose it's harder? What exactly makes it so?

originally posted by: TheWhiteKnight
Where do you do the time? I suppose if you are Bruce Jenner the answer is simple.
But don't tell me this never happens. To trannies. I watch Cops Reloaded™. I'm hip.

We're dealing with this in the UK right now after several instances of violence and death of Transgender inmates.
Ultimately these people should be held (in safety) in an environment which best suits them.
I know some people hate the idea that even those in prison deserve Human rights, but it's a matter of principle that are treated as Humans whether people agree with that or not.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
There is a clear difference between acknowledging a person as they wish in a private setting and expecting the majority of people to change protocol to accommodate a tiny minority.

Accommodate?
How are you being required to "accommodate" someone by simply calling them the term they identify as?
Do you have the same inability to call your friend Steve by his name? Do you have the same inability to call the man delivering your post "Sir"? Do you find it that hard to call the girl at the grocery store "Miss"?

What exactly is so f-ing hard about calling someone what they want to be called?

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: TheWhiteKnight
Where do you do the time? I suppose if you are Bruce Jenner the answer is simple.
But don't tell me this never happens. To trannies. I watch Cops Reloaded™. I'm hip.

We're dealing with this in the UK right now after several instances of violence and death of Transgender inmates.
Ultimately these people should be held (in safety) in an environment which best suits them.
I know some people hate the idea that even those in prison deserve Human rights, but it's a matter of principle that are treated as Humans whether people agree with that or not.

I knew it. Sooner or later we all go to jail.
So, this concern I have is right up there at the top of the (several) miles long lists we must be concerned with, imo.
(please feel free to direct my attention to your bucket list of concerns, anyone).
And how did they land their azzes in jail, I wonder. Trick or treat, perhaps? It's difficult to discern,
a lot of times. One way to tell is when they become pregnant. More and more I am concerned about what
I am seeing with my eyes. In the 'biz', they have started placing a fly,
strategically (on certain sites) on an arm or leg, as a code, on the leading image. The better ones do, anyways.

If they can't get this sorted (individual privacy stalls, showers, and rooms) then I suppose they could
just kick out all the regular inmates and let the transvestites have the whole jail, would this be acceptable?

But yeah, this is a huge issue (to be concerned with)!
For this, (our concern level) I thank God!

# 645

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Accommodate?
How are you being required to "accommodate" someone by simply calling them the term they identify as?
Do you have the same inability to call your friend Steve by his name? Do you have the same inability to call the man delivering your post "Sir"? Do you find it that hard to call the girl at the grocery store "Miss"?

What exactly is so f-ing hard about calling someone what they want to be called?

Because I don't know what they want to be identified with until I know them personally.

Even "sir", "maam" or "miss" can be perceived the wrong way. I have encountered people respond with "no need to call me sir..." or "not maam, my name is actually..." when working in customer service. You can try your best to be respectful and polite but there are always people who will take it the wrong way for whatever reason.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Accommodate?
How are you being required to "accommodate" someone by simply calling them the term they identify as?
Do you have the same inability to call your friend Steve by his name? Do you have the same inability to call the man delivering your post "Sir"? Do you find it that hard to call the girl at the grocery store "Miss"?

What exactly is so f-ing hard about calling someone what they want to be called?

Because I don't know what they want to be identified with until I know them personally.

Even "sir", "maam" or "miss" can be perceived the wrong way. Working in customer service, I have encountered people respond with "no need to call me sir..." or "not maam, my name is actually..." when working in customer service. You can try your best to be respectful and polite but there are always people who will take it the wrong way for whatever reason.

That doesn't address the discussion, it's merely attempting to destroy the entire ethos of making a place of learning suitable and safe for all irrelevant because one thing might happen to one person some day.

Of course there will be instances where discrepancies are found, where arguments and debates can be had, where individual instances might mean something needs to be done or something refined, but that cannot be used as some kind of blanket excuse to never make anything better for anyone, just in case some day some kid is kept home from school because he accidentally upset another kid by using the wrong term.

Anything that allows any kid to feel safer in a place of learning should be done, and I don't care if people think it's "political correctness" to call someone by what they wish to be called.

It certainly seems that a lot of people in this thread are using "what if's" as an excuse to not do anything to improve the lives of kids. It's pretty ironic actually, considering so many are always instantly grabbing the "what about the kids!" excuse when it suits them. In this instance we have a sensible measure being put in place to reduce bullying and make the school system safer and more comfortable for all, and there are still people here complaining about it as if that's a bad thing.

It really comes down to this... (and this is directed at others here, not you) if you're a parent and you think this measure is wrong, you're a bad parent and your kids deserve better than you.

a reply to: TheWhiteKnight

I'm not sure what most of what you wrote there actually means.
I will just say that it's absolutely right that inmates (who are there for whatever crime) deserve to be held in safety. Just because they are criminals serving a prison sentence does not mean their Human rights are irrelevant and they can be treated like less than animals.

Every inmate, regardless of crime, is there to serve out their punishment and in most cases be rehabilitated, the revocation of their freedom in society and attempts to reform them is the basis of imprisonment.

This does not mean they are to be treated like as though they are sub-Human because someone wants to punish people for being transgender, or gay, or a woman, or black, or Muslim...

originally posted by: TheWhiteKnight

Word. You said it, sister.
But in the long run, what I wonder about is when you get arrested, and then convicted of a crime.

Where do you do the time? I suppose if you are Bruce Jenner the answer is simple.
But don't tell me this never happens. To trannies. I watch Cops Reloaded™. I'm hip.

I guess if we're this worried about (back on topic, sorry) potty time,
then certainly we've got hard time all sussed out
...you just go to the gender jail cell
that you self identify with.

First of all, and I'll be polite because maybe you weren't aware but the vast majority of transgender and transsexual people consider the word "tranny" a derogatory slur comparable to calling a person of color the N-word. Some within the community may use it referring to themselves or others but if you aren't trans, it is hard to be interpreted as anything but a slur. Whenever I hear it, I think of this:



To answer your valid question in spite of your general tone, I'll say it "just depends". There is no one single answer as this is something that is still evolving. Naturally, it is going to depend on jurisdiction or local or state policies which are completely inconsistent all across the country and whether you are incarcerated in city, county, state, federal or military facilities. Usually, this is handed on an individual basis but what happens most often is that a person ends up in segregation or solitary for their own protection.

You can learn more from The Transgender Law Center's Detention Project

Justice Department Takes Steps to Protect Transgender Prisoners

DOJ guidelines state that any "written policy or actual practice that assigns transgender or intersex inmates to gender-specific facilities, housing units, or programs based solely on their external genital anatomy" is in violation of the federal standard, which mandates that prisons consider both inmates' gender identity and personal concerns about their safety when assigning them to a housing facility.

From the National Center for Transgender Equality

Being transgender or gender non-conforming in an American jail or prison often means daily humiliation, physical and sexual abuse, and fear of reprisals for using the legal remedies to address underlying problems. Many transgender people are placed in solitary confinement for months or years just because of who they are. In recent years, these issues have gained national attention. For example, regulations to implement the Prison Rape Elimination Act (PREA) include specific provisions aimed at protecting transgender prisoners. NCTE and other advocates continue to press for stronger protections and accountability and create new tools for advocacy focused on transgender and gender non-conforming people’s interactions with the criminal justice system with local, state and federal law enforcement officials and the public at-large.

But would it not really suck, and really really hard, if you were nabbed while transitioning,
because then you'd need a special jail cell?

Less than 1/3 of the people that transition full time to the "opposite" gender undergo sex reassignment surgery. Those that have would be detained in the appropriate men's or women's facility.

Do you get wifi, and facebook in jail?

Why the snark or sarcasm or whatever this was supposed to be or did you just think it was cute?

originally posted by: Rocker2013
That doesn't address the discussion, it's merely attempting to destroy the entire ethos of making a place of learning suitable and safe for all irrelevant because one thing might happen to one person some day.

Did you see the first line, or just read the longer the second one. If I don't know somebody personally, how can I know automatically what they prefer to be referred to as?

Of course there will be instances where discrepancies are found, where arguments and debates can be had, where individual instances might mean something needs to be done or something refined, but that cannot be used as some kind of blanket excuse to never make anything better for anyone, just in case some day some kid is kept home from school because he accidentally upset another kid by using the wrong term.

Hmm, it's impossible to make everything better for everyone. We know that for a fact. Actions designed to benefit one group will annoy or inconvenience another. Only when far-reaching, meaningful change can be achieved should we attempt to change things. Otherwise we are exercising in futility.

Anything that allows any kid to feel safer in a place of learning should be done, and I don't care if people think it's "political correctness" to call someone by what they wish to be called.

Do you really think changing language alone is going to make kids feel safer?

It certainly seems that a lot of people in this thread are using "what if's" as an excuse to not do anything to improve the lives of kids. It's pretty ironic actually, considering so many are always instantly grabbing the "what about the kids!" excuse when it suits them. In this instance we have a sensible measure being put in place to reduce bullying and make the school system safer and more comfortable for all, and there are still people here complaining about it as if that's a bad thing.

Haha, yes, you ARE pretty convinced that changing elements of language will make kids feel safer and more comfortable.

It really comes down to this... (and this is directed at others here, not you) if you're a parent and you think this measure is wrong, you're a bad parent and your kids deserve better than you.

That's rather judgemental of you towards people with kids who don't agree with your arguments.

a reply to: Freija

Please don't advocate the use of lupron. You have been misinformed about it.

a reply to: Freija

Whatever you say. I'm saddled with a Thesaurus that still uses these terms.

Thanks for the tranny pics btw. I can close my eyes, and still remember when I owned a car. Sigh.
I never even walked across the street. You might say that I personally caused global warming.

The latest thing in torque is electrorheology, however,
but for some reason, the internet has been scrubbed of all images. I think it's
because $ekret Machines. Remember the older AT&T logo? Well, they changed it. They did this
for a reason. Hint.

I'm sorry if I am out of date with the latest code words for the phenomenon. I'll try to catch up.

# 646

Just more bs to fry kids , if you brains !
That's if you can call them kids anymore , just more branches snapping on the tree of bs .

On a side note .

If you see Someone with a cocck in the ladies , kick him in it , report him and leave it to the cops, let the judge decide !

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Did you see the first line, or just read the longer the second one. If I don't know somebody personally, how can I know automatically what they prefer to be referred to as?

This is irrelevant, this is not about what you should call someone, this is not about misunderstandings, this is about preventing kids from using terminology to abuse other kids and make their lives hell.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Hmm, it's impossible to make everything better for everyone. We know that for a fact. Actions designed to benefit one group will annoy or inconvenience another. Only when far-reaching, meaningful change can be achieved should we attempt to change things. Otherwise we are exercising in futility.

No it's not "impossible" to make lives better for everyone.
This has NO IMPACT AT ALL on anyone else.
If I decided to change my name tomorrow, and asked my friends and family to call me by my new name, how is that any kind of inconvenience to anyone?
You seem to suggest that things should only be done to improve someone's life if it makes enough of a positive change for all, but just how many people do you think should benefit from a simple change before it should be considered?

And if you want to claim that simple changes like this (which have no impact on you at all, of course) should only be made for "certain groups" of people, where exactly are your lines drawn?

If there are fewer people of a specific race or religion in your society, should ways to improve their lives be rejected until there are enough of them to justify it in your mind?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Do you really think changing language alone is going to make kids feel safer?

Yes, actually I do.
But this is not just about "changing language" as you want to pretend, this is about preventing students attempting to attack other students based on differences from getting away with using a new form of abuse.

This is not about "changing language", it's about holding kids to account when they attempt to be abusive to other students by deliberately using specific terms not suited to them.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Haha, yes, you ARE pretty convinced that changing elements of language will make kids feel safer and more comfortable.

Yes, because this will absolutely safeguard many kids from being attacked by their abusive and ignorant classmates, which is why I fail to see how any rational or sane person could possibly find fault in this.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
That's rather judgemental of you towards people with kids who don't agree with your arguments.

No, it's rather judgemental to abusive and ignorant parents who raise abusive and ignorant kids who think they have a right to abuse other kids based on race, gender, sexuality, religion, nationality...

It's really pretty easy, if your kid thinks they have a right to attack other kids for any of these arbitrary reasons, you are a failed parent. Normal, decent Humans do not act like this toward other Humans, so if your kid does then you are a disgraceful parent who did a terrible job.

Girl Child: Mommy, I'm actually a boy.

Mom: What makes you say that?

Girl Child: I hate playing with the girls at school. They play stupid things like 'house' and play with dumb toys like dolls, and also they like wearing dresses and bows in their hair and I hate that! I like playing with the boys, and dressing like them!

Mom: So play with who you want, and dress how you want to! There is something called 'gender stereotypes' and it's causing you to feel alienated from who you are. Don't listen to it. Girls can play the games boys play, and girls don't always like dresses and bows.

Girl Child: ...and that doesn't mean there's something wrong with me?

Mom: Of course not! I love you just the way you are!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Boy Child: I want to be a girl.

Mom: Why do you say that?

Boy Child: Because then the other kids won't make fun of me for playing 'house' with the girls. And I'll get to wear prettier things when we play 'dress up.'

Mom: Those other kids are bullies for making fun of you. You can like to play whatever you like, and dress up in whatever you want to. It doesn't change who you are. Those bullies are hung up on 'gender stereotypes.'

Boy Child: But I want to grow up and be a Mommy like you and have a baby like you did.

Mom: I'm sorry but that is just not possible.

Boy Child: But people can get and operation and change from a man to a woman!

Mom: Those people do have their penis removed, and a cavity formed that resembles a vagina, but they have to work really hard to keep it from closing up, and they have to take medicine for the rest of their lives, and they can never have a baby because they don't have a uterus, fallopian tubes, ovaries or cervix.

Boy Child: So I am a boy that likes things that most girls like, but I can never turn into a woman that can have a baby?

Mom: That's right. That's how the human body works. But you know what?

Boy Child: What?

Mom: I love you just the way you are, no matter how you like to play or what you like to dress up in!

Boy Child: Thanks Mom!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really, is no one having these types of conversations with their children? Has everyone jumped on the 'you are what you think you are' bandwagon. We owe it to our kids to set realistic expectations of their future, and to accept that their likes and dislikes as natural variations of gender stereotypes. We need to teach kids that it is ok to break gender stereotypes, instead of encouraging them to 'break camp' and change genders, in order to adhere to gender stereotypes.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
This is irrelevant, this is not about what you should call someone, this is not about misunderstandings, this is about preventing kids from using terminology to abuse other kids and make their lives hell.

Kids that abuse other kids in an attempt to make their lives hell should be punished accordingly. But it's unlikely this is going to prevent any more abuse because the perpetrator doesn't usually care about the "rules" in the first place. I can't believe you think this is actually going to make a difference for transgender children.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
No it's not "impossible" to make lives better for everyone.
This has NO IMPACT AT ALL on anyone else.
If I decided to change my name tomorrow, and asked my friends and family to call me by my new name, how is that any kind of inconvenience to anyone?
You seem to suggest that things should only be done to improve someone's life if it makes enough of a positive change for all, but just how many people do you think should benefit from a simple change before it should be considered?

This will have no impact AT ALL for transgender children either, that is my point.

Things should only be done if meaningful change is the result of the action. What meaningful change do you think will come from this? Do you really think little Johnny is going to refrain from demeaning Alice just because he was told he can no longer refer to her using the incorrect pronoun? You think this will make a serious dent in the number of transgender children being bullied?

And if you want to claim that simple changes like this (which have no impact on you at all, of course) should only be made for "certain groups" of people, where exactly are your lines drawn?

If there are fewer people of a specific race or religion in your society, should ways to improve their lives be rejected until there are enough of them to justify it in your mind?

I am all for improving the lives of the most people possible, but I just disagree that this specific action will bring forth any meaningful change.

Yes, actually I do.
But this is not just about "changing language" as you want to pretend, this is about preventing students attempting to attack other students based on differences from getting away with using a new form of abuse.

This is not about "changing language", it's about holding kids to account when they attempt to be abusive to other students by deliberately using specific terms not suited to them.

I very much doubt this move will make little, if any, difference to the lives of transgender children. It is a political move more than it is a social one.

Yes, because this will absolutely safeguard many kids from being attacked by their abusive and ignorant classmates, which is why I fail to see how any rational or sane person could possibly find fault in this.

Sigh.

No, it's rather judgemental to abusive and ignorant parents who raise abusive and ignorant kids who think they have a right to abuse other kids based on race, gender, sexuality, religion, nationality...

It's really pretty easy, if your kid thinks they have a right to attack other kids for any of these arbitrary reasons, you are a failed parent. Normal, decent Humans do not act like this toward other Humans, so if your kid does then you are a disgraceful parent who did a terrible job.

It's still pretty judgemental, only you feel justified negatively judging these people because you disagree with their views. You can't solely judge the parents based on the behaviour of the child. What if the child has mental issues? What if their bullying tendencies are due to influences other than the parents?

originally posted by: new_here
Really, is no one having these types of conversations with their children? Has everyone jumped on the 'you are what you think you are' bandwagon. We owe it to our kids to set realistic expectations of their future, and to accept that their likes and dislikes as natural variations of gender stereotypes. We need to teach kids that it is ok to break gender stereotypes, instead of encouraging them to 'break camp' and change genders, in order to adhere to gender stereotypes.

For the last time, this is not about kids playing dress up or preferring dinosaurs over Brabie.
No one is "encouraging" children to change their gender, no one is "encouraging" anyone to become a different gender because they appreciate things traditionally associated with another gender.

You seem to make a lot of assumptions about what other parents are doing, or not doing, this is simple minded in the extreme and doesn't reflect actual reality.

If a teen girl is living as a boy, they have made that choice, and regardless of whether you think their parents were right or wrong, this discussion is about enabling them to live their life as they see fit, in the identity they see fit, without being attacked and abused by other teens because of it.

a reply to: Rocker2013

For the last time, this is not about kids playing dress up or preferring dinosaurs over Brabie.

You have said what it is not. You have not said what it is. What other reference point would a young child have besides the roles they are cast into?