Can I believe in Ghosts and not God?

originally posted by: zazzafrazz

You are like a dog with a bone. It is not your place to "make me ask the questions of myself". Ask yourself leave me out of it.
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Why post a thread in a public forum then if you didn't want the input from other people? I am not forcing you to think on those questions, I posted them in response to the thread you made in a public forum. You can ignore them if you want. But then, why post this in an open and public forum?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Do you want Zazzie to admit that you've changed her mind with your brilliant truth and factual evidence?

Don't hold your breath. Besides, you haven't proven a thing that you think you have. You might as well be arguing that existence itself proves the existence of god. You exist, the earth exists, therefore "GOD"! Viola!

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Yes but I answered you, Capiche?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

So, what exactly is causing photons, and other wave/particles to react and decide what to do if it is not an intelligence that permeates everything in the multiverse? My argument is not meant to imply I understand it completely, but there has to be an intelligence behind the actions and reactions of subatomic particles.

windword stated that "the spooky action" in particles can be accounted as "telepathy". But in order for telepathy to exist there must be a conscious mind behind it. What sort of mind could then be the cause for particles to react like they do all over the multiverse?

How can two parts of one subatomic particle that has been divided be able to have a link no matter the distance each split part is at? How can that reaction be instant no matter how separate apart they are?

That source that exists within each particle/wave in the multiverse seems to be intelligent. In order for photon/particle entanglement to occur, it would mean that each split part of that one particle is able to communicate with it's other half no matter how distant apart they are. It can't be attributed as simple reaction because there is no physical link between the two split parts of the subatomic particle.

Think of it as twins that have experienced what their twin experience no matter how distant they are. IMO some twins experience that because their minds are somehow linked as they were conceived.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

windword stated that "the spooky action" in particles can be accounted as "telepathy".

Here's an example of our failure to communicate and understand each other. I didn't say the "spooky action" can be accounted as, or chalked up to telepathy. Telepathy isn't a proven fact. People swear that they have experienced it, myself included, but there is no scientific proof, just anecdotal stories.

Can telepathy be shown to exist through quantum "dual particle" interaction? Some scientist are excitedly hopeful.

Photons and electrons are basically little packets of pure energy, whatever that is, made up of smaller more unpredictable packets of energy, some that seem to just pop in and out of existence randomly. But why does energy behave like a particle and a wave?

If you drop a rock into a still pond the energy generated by the rock will cause the water to react by being pushed away and then falling forward into the hole of its own absence (displacement). Energy waves begin to generate outward and away from the initial energy source. These waves are interacting with the water, but are NOT the water. If you put your cup in the water you wont' catch a wave.

If those waves hit a rock wall, they'll bounce back and interact with other waves, sloshing back and forth, and now the whole pool is affected. But the amount of energy stays the same, only the trajectory of waves have changed. The water made no decision to react, it just does what water does when it interacts with an energy source.

Physicists have found a similar but an even kookier and quirkier reality at a quantum level. Light reacts kinda like water under quantum interaction. Is it a particle or a wave?

Maybe your parents, or some teacher told you this, it's really fantastic.....when you look at the light of a star, you are physically touching an unbroken energy/light wave between you and the source of that star light. Can you be 2 place at once? That beam of light can!

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Wow I think this the very first post of yours that I actually agree with.

There is no "god" required for the soul's continued existence after the physical body dies.
Ghosts and afterlives and NDEs and quantum entanglement and the laws of thermodynamics explain everything quite easily now. No "God" sitting somewhere judging everyone.

Our souls come here to Earth for a while, perhaps more than once. When our bodies expire, we (our souls) return to the realm of the ethereal collective. We are all fractals or divisions or outgrowths or expressions of the Unity. There is no requirement for a "God" judging and ordering souls about.

No. We are all connected. We cycle through various physical and metaphysical forms and experiences.

Eventually, our 'souls' are advanced enough to graduate and not have to go back to "school" on Earth. Nevertheless, after graduation, there are inservices and practica required as we move along.

with all due respect buzzy, it seems ironic that one would defend the possibility of metaphysical entities ie "ghosts" and then turn around and declare that theology is all bunk. the same plausibility that gives rise to paranormal phenomena could just as easily be applied to other supernatural forces. i confess myself somewhat nonplussed by the incongruency. not saying it is invalid, just saying theres a lot of blanks that beg filling.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I see no problem with that. She doesn't need to equate an afterlife 'energy remnant' or whatever it is to a christian god or other divinity creating it.

This energy is not the exclusive domain of christianity or religion.

originally posted by: windword
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Physicists have found a similar but an even kookier and quirkier reality at a quantum level. Light reacts kinda like water under quantum interaction. Is it a particle or a wave?

Maybe your parents, or some teacher told you this, it's really fantastic.....when you look at the light of a star, you are physically touching an unbroken energy/light wave between you and the source of that star light. Can you be 2 place at once? That beam of light can!

Except for the fact that the reaction, and decisions made by subatomic particles are instant no matter their distance. In order for the light of a star billions of light years away from us to reach us it takes millions, or even billions of years. Many of those stars have already collapsed even thou we can still see their light and our eyes tells us they still exist when they collapsed a long time ago.

The "spooky action" and the reactions of a subatomic particle that has been split show both parts of the split subatomic particle react at the same time. The entangled particles, and the split particles have their futures intertwined. What happens to one, happens to the other. There is a link between them that defies logic no matter how far apart they are.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Except for the fact that the reaction, and decisions made by subatomic particles are instant no matter their distance. In order for the light of a star billions of light years away from us to reach us it takes millions, or even billions of years. Many of those stars have already collapsed even thou we can still see their light and our eyes tells us they still exist when they collapsed a long time ago.

Time and space are not part the equation when dealing with quantum physics and quantum reality. It doesn't matter what information we receive from that light on our end. The fact that there is an unbroken stream from here to there is what we're talking about.

The head and toes are not in the same place, but they're still part of the same body. Light is evidence of a connected nature of reality that defies time and space.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
Well obviously I can, I can think what i want, 'cause I'm the boss of me.

The philosophy behind this, is that I think the premise of afterlife is unrelated to religion. For some reason I have had a fellow 'atheist' (I just usually say I don't believe in a Gods rather call myself an atheist) say I can't believe in one superstition, and not the other.

I think that traditionally people think religion has overseen the domain of death and spirit, but there is not steadfast rule that the two have to be related.

Can one believe the biological entity can create or be attached to a non biological component? Does that mean a spirit/soul has to be controlled by a god figure?
What is a spirit or soul? How does a ghost differ to inspirit/heaven?

I have seen ghosts, so I'm not here to argue if they are real or not. More a discussion, why can't someone who doesn't believe in God be of the belief that a energy entity can exist without it's biological host?

Yet, if you believe in an afterlife...an energy transformation of soul, then why not an omnipotent being made of the same fabric. It really does not have anything to do with religion if we think along these lines.

originally posted by: windword
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The head and toes are not in the same place, but they're still part of the same body. Light is evidence of a connected nature of reality that defies time and space.

The head and toes are connected physically, while entangled particles, and particles that have been split are not physically connected with each other.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: TzarChasm

I see no problem with that. She doesn't need to equate an afterlife 'energy remnant' or whatever it is to a christian god or other divinity creating it.

This energy is not the exclusive domain of christianity or religion.

did i mention christianity or religion anywhere in my post? i said theology, which is not religion but is often mistaken for religion. religion is theology made into a business, just like politics is humanitarianism made into a business.

to recap: "it seems ironic that one would defend the possibility of metaphysical entities ie "ghosts" and then turn around and declare that theology is all bunk. the same plausibility that gives rise to paranormal phenomena could just as easily be applied to other supernatural forces."

no offense, but it seems to me you neglected to address this point. ghosts can be real but not a deity? thats akin to saying leprechauns are real but cuchulain is a fantasy. you may not see a problem here, but i do. not a "problem" per se, but to use my earlier adjective, incongruent.

a reply to: InTheLight

Probably because I don't think there is a ladder to climb, or a soul wheel cog to notch after death or gates to enter to a heavenly realm.

I don't fear death, and I don't believe in heaven. Its just remnant energy stuff.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Gee it really upsets people when you don't believe in god.

To answer you see my post above.

Ghpsts do not = god

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: InTheLight

Probably because I don't think there is a ladder to climb, or a soul wheel cog to notch after death or gates to enter to a heavenly realm.

I don't fear death, and I don't believe in heaven. Its just remnant energy stuff.

"remnant energy stuff" is pretty vague. almost seems like a synonym for "i dont know, but not god". not that there is anything wrong with that, but why not just say so?

a reply to: TzarChasm

Did I say I had the answer?

I'm not ashamed to say I don't, pity hard core "believers" aren't so humble.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: windword
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The head and toes are not in the same place, but they're still part of the same body. Light is evidence of a connected nature of reality that defies time and space.

The head and toes are connected physically, while entangled particles, and particles that have been split are not physically connected with each other.

That's the conundrum of dual particle physics. Is it a particle, that exists in a place and a time, or is a wave that can't be pin pointed at all? Turns out, both seem to be true!

Are you a body, or are you spirit? Are you a particle or a wave?
(You don't have to answer that question.)

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: TzarChasm

Gee it really upsets people when you don't believe in god.

To answer you see my post above.

Ghpsts do not = god

im not attacking your dismissal of god, im just asking for specifics. is asking for a detailed reasoned response a problem? and why so offended by questions?

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: TzarChasm

Did I say I had the answer?

I'm not ashamed to say I don't, pity hard core "believers" aren't so humble.

you seem awfully defensive. was it something i said?

guess i assumed wrongly that you were interested in exploring the topic. sorry?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: InTheLight

Probably because I don't think there is a ladder to climb, or a soul wheel cog to notch after death or gates to enter to a heavenly realm.

I don't fear death, and I don't believe in heaven. Its just remnant energy stuff.

"remnant energy stuff" is pretty vague. almost seems like a synonym for "i dont know, but not god". not that there is anything wrong with that, but why not just say so?

Doesn't it all boil down to beliefs and perhaps spiritual experiences (whether real or imagined) in the end? If a deceased family member visits me after death and shows me they are happier than they have ever been in physical life, What force made that happen?, I ask myself.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Most certainly.

A couple of notes:

If by "ghosts" you are meaning "souls", then as you no doubt know, the concept of "immortal souls" is only about 2400 years old or so; before that, "souls" (ghosts) were generally considered to decay into nothing, or almost nothing (such as Greek "shades').

This whole preoccupation with "god", as a super being who might keep you from decaying away, is a quite recent one in terms of human history.

The concept is of course quite potent these days, as if some religion can convince you there is a way to avoid soul decay, by sucking up to their religion, then "they" effectively own your brain. I can't imagine anything more evil to do to a person, to twist them into such a frightful belief system and lock in their suffering for much or all of a lifetime; thus wasting what precious life they may have otherwise had.

"God" is the single cruelest concept ever invented by a human in my view.

The reason for this is the "boundary of awareness dilemma".

It's impossible to know what you don't know, whether you are a worm or a "god".

It's impossible to absolutely know if "god" exists, or even what the "ultimate rules" are, if any.

Once you learn 1 new thing, your entire understanding and perceptual boundaries are modified and you can see further and know more.

Even "god" couldn't know whether or not they were "god". If some being thought they were "god", based upon say the ability to snap one's metaphysical fingers to create or destroy Universes (or Multiverses) and to perceive all within and without to the best of their ability..

Still such a being might discover that they were just a cell in a larger Life.. and in fact quite puny.

It's the problem of infinite regression.. it's impossible to know where the ultimate boundaries are.. you can only know your PERSONAL boundaries.

So it is foolish even for "god" to believe in "god".

But presumably temporary "ghosts" or "souls"?

Sure. Why not?

Anything can be postulated to exist in a temporary or limited sense.

So ghosts or souls? Sure.

God?

Well that's not rational, even for "god".

That's my take.

Kev