Magic is mislabled science?

magic = science is a bit of a leap, imo...
but, we need to be aware that magic played a role in most of human history. The beginnings are supposedly set in the neolithic age...40,000 years ago, when artists did really exceptional paintings on cave walls to 'draw out' the animals they intend to hunt.

This practice still happens today because if I hope to catch a salmon, I always draw a really really big one before i get my boots and tackle together. I imagine there are a few tribes somewhere that still think this way.Magic doesn't have to make sense...if you feel it works for you, then it does...

Reading from my latest literary infatuation...Richard Rudgley's 'The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age...he says;

" Leaving (the) point about science and technology to one side for the moment, let us look a little more closely at the question of magic and allied practices. Contrary to what many adherants of social progress would like to believe, magic, occultism and a whole host of what (....) would call supersticious practices are rife throughout the civilised world. As a belief system astrology may have been cast aside by the inexorable surge of modern rationalism and science, but if this is so, a great many people do not seem to have noticed it.

Astrology has an enormous following, from the highest echelons of power (eg. Nancy Reagan and members of the British Royal Family) to the readers of the hugely popular tabloid horoscopes. Avoiding walking under ladders, touching wood and the use of personal and team mascots are all practices as supersticious as anything found in tribal societies.

As for magic itself, the old view of anthropologists on the subject, exemplified by Sir James Frazer's description of it as a 'bastard science', is now universally rejected. Many more recent anthropologissts have seen magic and divination as coherent systems of belief. Sir Edward Evans-Pritchard, who was Professor of Anthropology at the University of Oxford for many years, stated that the oracular form of decision-making used by the Azande people of Africa was ' as good a way of conducting one's affairs as any other I know'."

So...don't throw those Rune Stones out with the garbage just yet...next time you can't decide...just roll them on the table and let the Gods do the work for you.

Masqua

[edit on 10-1-2005 by masqua]

[edit on 10-1-2005 by masqua]

Sorry vertu but i notice you tend to be a bit vindictive in your opinions toward others opinions.

Anyway back on topic about the magic being science thing I am quite enthralled to see the well thought opinions here and theories quotes and such. I must agree with shadow on his view of magic because that is something i have talked about with my friends from time to time. It also brings up another point indirectly. What if the mind cannot only bridge certain physical and mental gaps to accomplish goals, but can also bridge time and space maybe even physics as we know it. Surely if such things were possible we would never know the difference. All it would really take to spawn a belief in magic to last to this day is one person. With the ability to project there thoughts and knowledge into the past and somehow interact with anybody to share knowledge of the future. They could become grand illusionists and never even comprehend higher mental abilities such as telikinesis. In other words there could be to historical types of magic one that is nothing more than the illusions and science combined to pull off a flawlessly executed performance and thus gain respect power or whatever. The other type could theoratically be that of physiological abilities harnessed by more complex and well practiced mental processes.

This is just a wild hypothesis however based on some of the things im getting in feed back but i like it. Anywho i have been thinking on the whole paranormal abilities of a person due to brainpower otherwise mislabeled as magic. It most likely takes a very intelligent mind or an insane one to be able to comprehend and perform these tasks. The insane mind is able to randomly restructure nueral pathways and form new ones and break down logic gates.

A brief explanation of logic gates in the human mind.
Logic gates are basically limits that your mind puts on reality and physical consequences of those limits. Heres one you can test yourself in fact
If you feel any type of pain in your body at the moment say itching, itching
then focus on nothing but the pain and say paining, paining, paining.... untill the pain becomes unbearable. Eventually when you stop if you have done it for long enough the pain will no longer be there. This happens because logic gates are belived to be responsible for the perception of pain in the brain. Once you make your mind believe you are in so much pain you may die it simply reacts and changes the level at which your mind percieves the pain much the same way people in shock feel no pain.

With that in mind now think if a logic gate was related to how the mind perceives reality. If your logic gates are altered either by extreme focus or insanity you may just be able to bridge the gap of reality and make things simply happen by your will and will alone.
My thoughts as to why people so often have o results to magic is they put no effort into it whatsoever or very little. even those who claim to have a very good grasp on it seem to be unable to alter more major things and with a consistent effort at that. This could be either due to the fact they don't have the ability to change there perception of reality or they simply do not have the intelligence to follow through with organizing brainwave patterns and such in complex ways as to acheive these goals forever being stuck with the plateau they reach in there perception of reality.

Ok I know it's quick for me to ask but does anyone side with me on the logic gates and perception of reality being a factor in the execution of magic.

OR does anyone have an even better theory to explain for the inconsisten results of magic performed by those claiming to have reign over their will as witches warlocks or whatever the term used to describe their own innate ability to harness and direct the effects of their will.

This is off topic but, if anyone who ever reads this you must phrase your words very carefuly when on the interent search engines when looking for spells. If you dont all you will find and people selling fake love spells and black magic (very BAD).

Magick is misunderstood science at least. People who no way have the ability to even raise and control magickal energy or knowledge of when and how to control it bash it as science. Like a chimpanzee laughing at space exploration!

Originally posted by sinatracementshoes
Plus if anyone could really scientifically show magic to exist they could have themselves a cool million dollars.

www.randi.org...

Nobody will get that million dollars ever. Randi is a con artist and will always find a way to discredit or debunk whoever he is "testing".

I get the feeling that most people here don't really understand what real "science" is.

Science is not a bunch of guys in white coats standing in a lab full or weird machinery or glassware, although you might see a scientist in that environment.

Science is not a guy with a PhD writing incomprehensible runes on a white-board, although you might see a scientist in that environment, too.

But science isn't really any of those things.

Science is a way of thinking about things; it's a way at looking at the Universe.

Science is an approach that attempts to understand the way things are by looking around and noticing things, then coming up with an idea that this particular thing is caused by that particular thing, and then trying that particular thing, over and over, to make sure that it is the cause of this thing. It also means telling all your friends about your idea and have them try it, too, to make sure they all get the same answers you do.

If they don't, then you need to change your idea, from "this causes that" to "this doesn't always cause that, unless something else, which means that..."

If your initial idea (which is called a 'hypothesis') seems to work all the time, no matter who tries it, then it becomes a 'theory', and you can use it to predict stuff, which means you can say, "If I were to do this, then I know that that will happen, because it always has so far, and the reason it happens this way is because so-and-so."

let's review:

(1) Make an observation of something happening.

(2) Figure out a reason for why it happens.

(3) Tell all your friends about your reason and have them check it out over and over and over.

(4) If your reason doesn't work, then you tell all your friends that, too, and you come up with another reason -- either a completely different reason, or a modification of the original one.

(5) Go back to item (3).

(6) Once your reason is checked out, it can be used to predict how things will work.

(7) If the predictions don't work, then you tell all your friends that, too, and you come up with another prediction -- either a completely different prediction, or a modification of the original one.

(8) Go back to item (3).

Now magic is a completely different way of looking at things!

If you come up with an idea for the way something happens and you try it and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, then you accept that as the truth and you blow off all the cases where it didn't work.

You sometimes tell your friends (if you want to sell them a book or something) but usually you keep it a secret.

If they do try your idea and it doesn't work for them, you say that the idea is still a good one, they just weren't holding their elbow right, or it was the wrong phase of the moon, or they simply didn't believe, or it was the "chem-trails", or something.

In other words, magic is the completely opposite way of looking at things from the way science does.

If you use pretend-science words, like "magic is energy" or "anomalous paradigm shifts" or what-have-you, that does not make it science, because science is a way of thinking and you are thinking a different way.

Saying that "magic is mis-labeled science" is like saying that "white is"white is mis-labeled black".

[edit on 13-1-2005 by Off_The_Street]

But friends aren't always there to help you in any wy. If you think differently (say in a magical way), they won't really accept your way of thinking, because magical thinking is "abnormal" in today's world, even if this is the future people's thinking. Therefore, you can't really discuss this with any casual person, because other aspects will be torned against you for thinking such a way.

Therefore, this manner should always be kept secret, and keep up a "normal", and a magical thinking, whenever the situation suits that. Also, it is your job to explore your mind and capabilities, knowing that nobody will ever help you, only you can help yourself.

now if science is a way of thinking and i labelled the thread magic is mislabeled science i am sorry for mislabling my thread.

But what i mean is is magic simply impossible to wholly understand with science. like what is the eeg reading on someone when the are attempting to cast a spell. how do i say this properly hmmmmm.

Ok magic is the performance of what exactly? brain power? magical energy of the body? or some misunderstood energy flowing through the galaxy like jedi power? Explain to me what magic is and why science should not be used to further investigat the reasons magic is belived, performed and the reasons which it has its effects or doesn't. please i mean no offense just trying to take a scientific view of magic for curiositys' sake.

[edit on 13-1-2005 by Magickesists]

vertu says:

"But friends aren't always there to help you in any wy."

It doesn't have to be "friends" per se. A scientist publishes her findings and hypotheses so that anyone (friends, co-workers, colleagues, or scientists on the other side of the world -- it doesn't matter) can review the information, set up their own experiments to test her hypotheses and either prove her wrong or validate her hypotheses.

"If you think differently (say in a magical way), they won't really accept your way of thinking, because magical thinking is "abnormal" in today's world, even if this is the future people's thinking."

You're right. If you think "in a magical way" most people won't accept your way of thinking, because it won't make sense to them. And since most people won't accept your way of thinking, they probably won't believe your assertions, either.

That doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong -- it just means that people won't believe you, because most people are looking for some thing to back up what you say.

"Therefore, you can't really discuss this with any casual person, because other aspects will be torned against you for thinking such a way."

Right. If you think "in a magical way", you will have a lot of trouble communicating your ideas to others.

"Therefore, this manner should always be kept secret, and keep up a "normal", and a magical thinking, whenever the situation suits that."

If your magical thinking is always "kept secret", then you might as well not waste your time thinking, because no one will ever know about it -- and if they do, they probably won't believe you, anyway. That hardly seems fair to you -- or your ideas.

"Also, it is your job to explore your mind and capabilities, knowing that nobody will ever help you, only you can help yourself."

Are you saying that no one can help you learn about your mind and capabilities -- that you have to start from scratch without taking advantage of what knowledge has gone before?

That's going to be a pretty tough job!

Magickesist says:

"now if science is a way of thinking and i labelled the thread magic is mislabeled science i am sorry for mislabling my thread."

No problem. A lot of people don't understand that "science" is not a skill so much as it is a way of thinking.

"But what i mean is is magic simply impossible to wholly understand with science. like what is the eeg reading on someone when the are attempting to cast a spell. how do i say this properly hmmmmm."

No, you're making a good point. I think what you're trying to say is that there is no way to measure magic happening, i.e., an EEG doesn't show anything different between you casting a spell and me reading a book.

But that may not be true!

I think that would be a good experiment -- in fact, I think it'd be a great one. Get ten people who claim they can cast spells. put them in a neutral, quiet place, and ask them to just let their minds go blank. Measure their EEG outputs and record them.

Then ask them -- while still hooked up to the EEG -- to cast a spell, and see if there's anything different in their EEG when they're casting a spell than when they're not.

Now if there's no difference, does it prove that magic and spells don't exist? No, it doesn't prove they do or they don't. I just shows that there's no noticeable difference as measured by the EEG.

Now suppose there was a difference. What does that prove about the existence of magic or the efficacy of spells? Again, nothing . It just shows that when someone is atempting to cast a spell, their brain waves are different enough to be measured.

But what if you find that, of the ten people who cast spells, five of those spells actually worked, and on those same five people, there were significantly different EEG readings which were lacking on the failed spells?

A-HA!!

Now we're getting somewhere!

What we have shown is that, in a test of ten people, there is a correlation between working spells and a particular EEG reading.

You haven't proven anything yet, but you do hae a good data point. Now you publish your experiment and the results, and all over the world, a bunch of other people try the same kind of experiment -- some with ten subjects, maybe a couple of researchers with a hundred subjects each.

And after all these experiments, the results are in and they show that, an many cases there is a correlation between EEG signals and "working" spells.

Now that is real science!

You haven't proven anything, but you have enough data to come up with a theory that says, "Very often, working spells are tied into a particular way of thinking which shows up on an EEG."

So you see, you can use the scientific method to investigate magic!

.
Strictly speaking 'magic' [if and how it exists] would the use of facts of cause and effect based on tradition or personal experience without any attempt to 'explain' them.

With trial and error [hopefully non-fatal] this could become a finely honed process. I presume you are talking about predictable/reproducable results. This while not actual science does come close.

Science attempts to understand the interior of the black box between cause/input and effect/output.

When scientific explanations are close to some kind of truth they can become predictive of totally untried possibilities. Based on how well experimentation predicts untried tests tells how well the 'model' fits reality.

from math:

Magic is like tracking a curve in a touchy feely way.

Science tries to determine the underlying function that produces the curve.

Magic gives you a local familiarity, like familiar territory,

Science attemts to give an almost absolute mechanism of cause and effect. (It can lack feeling sometimes)

I doubt that many/anyone can do the things we would do in our imaginations, but i do believe with the application of science, math, engineering, and creative imagination probably just about anything is possible.
.

While Magick is a science, the thing that separates it from say chemistry is how the result arrives.

With chemistry if I do A, B and C always happen and I get Z

With Magick if I do A, B and C might happen and I get Z, or D and F might happen happen and I get Z.

For example if I do a ritual for money I might find $20 in the wash, or win a scratch off lotto ticket, or have a friend repay a loan, or maybe a car I’m selling finds a buyer. Frankly I don’t care how it happens just that it does. If it doesn’t happen well then I did something wrong (just like in chemistry if you do A wrong B and C will not happen so you wont get Z).

Now the modern scientist will say that the result is a coincidence and the ritual had no effect on the outcome… but is it really a coincidence if the requested outcome always happens?

Originally posted by Cug
For example if I do a ritual for money I might find $20 in the wash, or win a scratch off lotto ticket, or have a friend repay a loan, or maybe a car I’m selling finds a buyer. Frankly I don’t care how it happens just that it does.

Well, I could say that those magicians are goddamn rich, but they cover that well!

Originally posted by Vertu

Well, I could say that those magicians are goddamn rich, but they cover that well!

Well Magick is NOT paranormal; you have to have some way for the desired outcome to manifest itself.

If you do a ritual for love then lock yourself up in your room, it’s not gona happen… well self love might

For the average person a magical operation to get a million dollars simply wont work because there is no natural path for it to happen. Now if Donald Trump did a ritual for a million dollars it would work (assuming he knew how).

Originally posted by Cug
For the average person a magical operation to get a million dollars simply wont work because there is no natural path for it to happen. Now if Donald Trump did a ritual for a million dollars it would work (assuming he knew how).

Yeah, that guy can "find" a million bucks, but I don't think he'll pray to all the special forces within a ritual just to take hand on any money. But I would be really interested in those, who ritually can "earn" money without showbusiness.

I mean Copperfield could be a magician, but.... well not the way I assume.

Anyway, thanks for the edit... but I have seen the other word posted, too...

Ya I tried to tell one person the my thinking and I got shuned because I was out of the loop of conformaty. Totaly agree with science it isnt wrong most of the time when people come to their answer. Who knows mabey their is a scientific way PSI and magic is used, but it just is in an unexplored area.

cug says:

"While Magick is a science, the thing that separates it from say chemistry is how the result arrives. "

No. "Magick" is not a science. If you can't measure it, if your results aren't repeatable, it's not a science.

"With chemistry if I do A, B and C always happen and I get Z With Magick if I do A, B and C might happen and I get Z, or D and F might happen happen and I get Z."

Exactly. You get random results. If I stand on my head, I might split my pants or I might find a nickel or I might get a headache or I might get some sort of mystic insights.

Or I might not.

This is called "random happenstnce".

"For example if I do a ritual for money I might find $20 in the wash, or win a scratch off lotto ticket, or have a friend repay a loan, or maybe a car I’m selling finds a buyer."

Or maybe none of those things happen and you don't get any money or anything like that at all. Like I said: random happenstance.

"Frankly I don’t care how it happens just that it does."

Yeah, me too! I wouldn't care how it happened, if it just did, because then I wouldn't have to go work at the Helicopter-factory every day. But the fact is that it doesn't always work. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet that you'd get the same results over, say, a one-year period whether yo did any "rituals" or not.

"If it doesn’t happen well then I did something wrong (just like in chemistry"

No. If it doesn't happen, it means that it doesn't work.

Even if something happens, it still doesn't mean it works, just like if I avoid stepping on a crack and my mother doesn't break her back does not mean my not stepping on the crack had anything to do with her back one way or the other.

"Now the modern scientist will say that the result is a coincidence and the ritual had no effect on the outcome… but is it really a coincidence if the requested outcome always happens?"

No, it wouldn't always be coincidence if the requested outcome always happens.

But it doesn't!

what about things that are proven not magic but have actual reasons explained by scientific studies based in true science. By science i mean laws of physics and such. Things like gunpowder for example were long ago considered magic until they were explained by either the inventors or people who replicated the results. Now if the same idea is used in modern day would it not mean that some things that are magic could be explained by investigation.

Another thought that occured to me is that magic spells like that of which to make money or have love are simply psychosamatic. For instance if you say, cast a love spell and by chance meet a girl who you later marry after casting the spell is it the spell or was would you have met this person anyway. the fact that you have casted the spell is simply a way for your subconcious to alarm you into taking action of making an impression on this woman as opposed to walking by her like the other 100 that you walked by the previous day. How is it that we don't make these choices of our own accord and then just say it had something to do with the magic.

That seems pretty unmagical to me because its psychology. another form of science performed by "scientists" of the mind and its interesting quirks.Right?