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Magic is mislabled science?

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posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 11:19 AM
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Alright I thought this would be most appropriat here because the point im gonna try and make is that magic is simply a mislable for human physiological phenomenon.

Now as i understand it magic is apparently the discipline of the mind in channeling energies and such right?

My thoughts are that the human brain is a very complex thing capable of many things we do not understand and i belive that magic may just be psychosamatic. For example if you were to bring a gun back to the medieval ages long before gunpowder they would say it was magic. Now there is some figure like we only use 10 percent of our brain. I have been reading a book lately called The Brain Revolution by Marilyn Fergusonand it has some neat theories and proven studies. One proven fact is that russian scientists have developed a way to see the aura of a human and that the brain itself produces magnetic energy and a radiation of its own properties. The radiation is similar in ways to the energy researched by wilhelm reich wich he labelled as orgonomics. In the studies by russian scientists they also noted that the radiation seems to flow in patterns and conjegate among the spots on the body used by acupuncture physicians and is most likely the force known as chi as well. There are a great many other studies and theories in the book that have led me to the opinion that magic should not be called magic and should be studied as a science.
The biggest thing im trying to put across here is however that magic is simply a science that has been mislabeled and should be studied as a science with proper studies and programs.

What do you all think and do you think that magic is mislabelled. Also has anyone read this book to if so what are your opinions on it as im sure im not the only person on this site to have read it.




posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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First of all, the "We only use 10% of our brain" is a myth. It's been explained a bazillion times, jsut use google to find out.

As for magic being a science...no. Not at all. The effects of 'magic' are unmeasurable, and not even agreed upon by practicioners. Of course, a bunch of Wiccans, witches, sorcerors, stanists, and others will come in here claiming such things as "You have to believe in magic in order to see it's effects" or "it's a personal experience." Which basically means that there is no way in heck that it should be considered a science, since you can't actually test it :-p

So no, magic is magic and is rightfully contained to $9.99 books at Borderr's and a religion started by some Brit back in the 50's. And until it shows itself to be a measurable, testable phenomena, that's where it will stay.



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 11:53 AM
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I like the fact that an opinion has been presented but also keep in mind that there has been very few studies by science on magic as most scientists don't belive in magic. Therefore would it not make sense to think that possibly magic is created by the mind not making it magic but effects casued by mind power we do not yet understand and thus making it a physiolgical science.



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 12:02 PM
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When a magician comes forward and shows that waving a wand a certain way and saying bibityboppityboo or something creates a repeatable phenomenon, then it will be able to be studied scientifically.



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 10:57 PM
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You mean like pulling quarters out of your ear? What magic are you talking about? You do understand that magic tricks arent real? I cant believe people STILL believe the 10% brain myth.



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 11:17 PM
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Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
You mean like pulling quarters out of your ear? What magic are you talking about? You do understand that magic tricks arent real?


I'm sure he's referring to the magic that New-Agers, Wiccans, Witches, and the like refer to. You know, casting spells for good fortune or love or whatever. The ones that have no measurable output to begin with.

"I'm casting a spell to help make that girl in your class love you."
*Month later, still not in love*
"Oh, it wasn't meant to be" or "You don't believe in the spell enough for it to work".

Which basically means that you can have the exact same outcome you would have had without the spell, and blame random chance of a lack of faith.

Sorry to all of spellcasters for this little bash, but I gotta call it like I see it. Believe what you want, but don't expect me to



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 11:34 PM
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I have to say that I agree with the previous posts. I've known many people who believed in magic, and a few that practiced Wicca and I have yet to see anything that even came close to convincing me it was real, let alone scientific. Plus if anyone could really scientifically show magic to exist they could have themselves a cool million dollars.

www.randi.org...



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 04:02 PM
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One thing that i have come to think is that nothing should be dismissed as impossible many things have been said to be impossible and we now take them for granted. What i think is that magic is simply mental power or the use of the brain to harness magnetism, time, energy in many states and manipulate it. One possible reason i figure that there has never been any reliable measured results is that many people claiming to practice magic lack the mental discipline to put the energy manipulation into qualitative or quantitative effect. Further more I'm betting that those people who can consistanly perform the paranormal tasks otherwise known as magic are not to enthusiastic to come forward and prove it due to the fact that if they did they would most likely be holed up in laboratories for the rest of there life being studied and tested.

So what is the possibility that we will ever see real magic performed and not any hocus pocus street magic (nothing but optical illusions and other tricks). Probably no chance whatsoever unless you are chosen to be trustworth and reliable enough to keep a secret because no doubt if these powers exist then why would anyone in their right mind make themselves visible to the general public.

This is my opinion and is open minded because if i hear a better reasonable explanation i will consider the changes to my own theory. This thread is posted because i was interested in reading some lengthy well written theories as of yet i have seen none and am still waiting a educated opinion or response to any the questions raised on this thread by others or myself.

In response to the question of which type of magic im referring to those of which have no real explanation based on current science, for example telekinesis,pyrokinesis, telepathy, precognition, reality alteration(love spells and such), ESP, astral projection. Pretty much anything determined as magic or paranormal that could possibly be the result of human brain power.

I haven't yet had a chance to study up on the 10% brain usage theory so if someone could explain it then i would be open minded and read because i was not aware of such discoveries.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by Magickesists
So what is the possibility that we will ever see real magic performed and not any hocus pocus street magic (nothing but optical illusions and other tricks). Probably no chance whatsoever unless you are chosen to be trustworth and reliable enough to keep a secret because no doubt if these powers exist then why would anyone in their right mind make themselves visible to the general public.

In response to the question of which type of magic im referring to those of which have no real explanation based on current science, for example telekinesis,pyrokinesis, telepathy, precognition, reality alteration(love spells and such), ESP, astral projection. Pretty much anything determined as magic or paranormal that could possibly be the result of human brain power.


You are right. Nobody will come forward with these powers, because those who can explore them, handle them the proper way, will not use them for hostile purposes. Anyway, very detailed way of thinking is required to explore such powers. And I'm not referring to courses and witchery schools. Those are nonsense.

Those who intend to explore magic, and use against others, will not be able to do that at all! Because their dirty soul will not have enough strength to achieve advanced brain capabilities, and therefore the magic remains an unexplained mystery for the rest of their life.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 04:17 PM
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I completely agree that it is a form of undiscovered science, and I say so on my site and always have. People have this silly notion that when one says "magic" they think of ridiculous silly bewitched or I dream of Jeanie type of fantasy. Magic is done with the mind...energy, thought...and thought is energy.....



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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I think the best way to illustrate this 'Magick = Science' idea is to, at least at first, show some examples between their core logic and ideas. To do this we need to look very closely at some of the newest concepts within Science today such as Quantum Mechanics, Superstring Theory, etc. For example:


Quantum Mechanics And Psychokinesis

By merely observing a phenomenon (resonating ones brain with it) one can affect the outcome, since the physical mechanisms in your brain are part of the wave matrix described by quantum mechanics. The information handling rate in resonance determines the amount of effect, along with the elapsed time of resonance and the probability distribution of the phenomenon you are observing. The effect of consciousness is incredibly small on macroscopic systems; but it can be measurable when it occurs on quantum mechanically defined and divergent systems, where a slight change can amplify itself as it propagates through the system.

Implications Of Quantum Consciousness Theory

Deflections caused by consciousness are not caused by force or energy in the conventional sense; but by something more subtle, namely effects within the underlying wave structure out of which matter and energy are manifestations (collapse of the state vector).


Read and compare these next sections carefully as it makes for one of the better examples I found which is also very simply stated and easy to recognize.


Quantum Interference
To psychically obtain information about a target or to psychically influence events, one has to have one's brain resonating with aspects of reality interconnecting the brain with the target. The more one's brain resonates with non-local aspects of reality connecting with a target, the more communication and direct influence one can have on it.

Definition of Magick:
1.) Any practice that creates change through mystical means. Magick can be innate, learned, or accidental. Most magick involves using a particular focus to channel energy towards a particular goal.

2.) Crowley defined magick as "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will."


Notice the Similarity???


[edit on 10-1-2005 by mOjOm]



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by LadyV
I completely agree that it is a form of undiscovered science, and I say so on my site and always have. People have this silly notion that when one says "magic" they think of ridiculous silly bewitched or I dream of Jeanie type of fantasy.

OK, but Ihaven't seen anyone in this thread do that.

Magic is done with the mind...energy, thought...and thought is energy.....

How is that NOT a silly fantasy? "Thought is energy"- that's just a phrase. It doesn't exactly explain anything. It's describing one fantastical concept with another. How is what you just said any less silly than Samantha twitching her nose? Because you believe it?

I haven't seen any evidence that using "thought energy" is any more effective than wearing a halter top and nodding my head



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by Esoterica
OK, but Ihaven't seen anyone in this thread do that.

I haven't seen any evidence that using "thought energy" is any more effective than wearing a halter top and nodding my head


Are you sure about that? Just because you can post here without a face? An ordinary person knows that you are a simple ATSer, but a magician can see through your words, right into your mind.

On the other hand, magic (mind control) has no description at all, therefore you couldn't even define those happening to you. Just as much as you point to aliens and spells, simply because you have no idea of what's going on around you.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by Vertu
Are you sure about that? Just because you can post here without a face? An ordinary person knows that you are a simple ATSer, but a magician can see through your words, right into your mind.

To quote Fox Mulder, "Read this thought."


On the other hand, magic (mind control) has no description at all, therefore you couldn't even define those happening to you.

What? Magic has no description or definition? That means it doesn't exist, unless you plan on getting all pseudophilosophical on me. Thanks... I guess


Just as much as you point to aliens and spells, simply because you have no idea of what's going on around you.

Is this a coherent thought? I have no clue as to what you are trying to say.


[edit on 1-10-2005 by Esoterica]



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by Vertu
Are you sure about that? Just because you can post here without a face? An ordinary person knows that you are a simple ATSer, but a magician can see through your words, right into your mind.

On the other hand, magic (mind control) has no description at all, therefore you couldn't even define those happening to you. Just as much as you point to aliens and spells, simply because you have no idea of what's going on around you.


A magician can see into our minds? I presume we're thinking telepathy here, how someone can identify another through the miles of electrical cabling and what not to identify the person that created such information in the first place is beyond me, as the text is stored on the ATS server and thus how can you trace it to read into the writers mind without some sort of other guidance, and that brings us into religion I feel.

In anycase, I often feel that theres more to the human mind than we know, but beyond minor effects I'm rather skeptical (being a physicist as I am)... I can recomend a couple of books by Lyall Watson for anyone who's interested in the subject though. He does an amazing job of explaining much "magic" through science, and not in a "It doesn't exist" type effort but through a very convincing scientifical view point of how these things are possible, it is fascinating and really shows you that science and the supernatural can go together in some cases (there are limits of course). ANyway, yes "Supernature" by Lyall Watson see here!.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by Esoterica
Is this a coherent thought? I have no clue as to what you are trying to say.
[edit on 1-10-2005 by Esoterica]


Yep... very confident, are you?



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by Slashpepper
A magician can see into our minds? I presume we're thinking telepathy here, how someone can identify another through the miles of electrical cabling and what not to identify the person that created such information in the first place is beyond me, as the text is stored on the ATS server and thus how can you trace it to read into the writers mind without some sort of other guidance, and that brings us into religion I feel.

In anycase, I often feel that theres more to the human mind than we know, but beyond minor effects I'm rather skeptical (being a physicist as I am)...


I have no idea of how it's done. Nowhere to learn it, no way to teach it. Probably these magical skills are learnt through life, and a person can access to unexplained brain capabilities without restrictions.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by Vertu
Yep... very confident, are you?

Well, you are right, I have no idea what's going on in here, anyway



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:48 PM
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I always thought there is a grain of truth to most myths even those of wizards and sorcerers. That infact these people were men of a secret science ahead of its time. That people had known about gun powder,Steel and herbal medicine long before people think. This would indeed seem magical to people that didnt no about it. Wizards and sorcerers were also known to tightly guard their secrets and perhaps for good reason.

There were also likely part illusionist like our modern day magicians. A mixture of real unknown science and illusion could appear very magical.

I dont have any proof just a theory I have on how all these myths started



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
A mixture of real unknown science and illusion could appear very magical.


Illusion is the power of the low grade illusionists, who have no idea of magic (say mind control). Those possessing magical powers actually need no illusion, because they are not against the community, their aim isn't to trick people , more to help them.

However, some moneygrabbers just can't resist replacing magic with illusions, since they are into tricking people, as many as possible!



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