Oregon protest leader Ammon Bundy is arrested, says source

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk
I think the question is based on an earlier claim that the Bundy Ranch does not graze BLM land. The Bundy Ranch itself covers 160 acres.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Speak for yourself.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Ya I get what you are saying. It isn't as black and white as what it could seem to be from a website with 'guidelines'.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Gryphon66

Speak for yourself.

Good advice; why don't you try it?

a reply to: onequestion

So ask me questions and then again ignore the ones I ask you after I answer.

a reply to: Phage

I could be wrong, but my understanding was the Bundy ranch was more like several THOUSAND acres when you include the federal land they lease(d). They defaulted on these leases and this is one of the prime reasons why their cause is diminished significantly.

160 acres is nothing when it comes to cattle. We couldn't graze more than 8-10 animals on 160 acres; no way could a person graze thousands. AND, the Hammond's herd was upwards of 300,000 head at one point.

There is a real issue in the whole grazing issue and the BLM, but as I have repeatedly stated; Bundy, Finicum and others have distracted / diluted / distorted this issue beyond recognition.

The main reason for the Bundy grazing permit revocations was because of the Desert Tortoise.

March 1993: The Washington Post publishes a story about the federal government's efforts to protect the desert tortoise in Nevada. Near Las Vegas, the Bureau of Land Management designated hundreds of thousands of acres of federal land for strict conservation efforts. "Among the conservation measures required," according to the Post's coverage, "are the elimination of livestock grazing and strict limits on off-road vehicle use in the protected tortoise habitat. Two weeks ago, the managers of the plan completed the task of purchasing grazing privileges from cattle ranchers who formerly used BLM land."

slow as a turtle

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I could be wrong, but my understanding was the Bundy ranch was more like several THOUSAND acres when you include the federal land they lease(d).

Yes. That was my understanding as well. The Bundys own 160 acres and lease BLM lands for the rest.
Is such an arrangement an actual land lease, or is it a lease for grazing rights only? Would there be much difference either way?

AND, the Hammond's herd was upwards of 300,000 head at one point.

I take it that such things are in the public record, as far as head counts?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Geez!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I really appreciate your informative contributions.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
There is a real issue in the whole grazing issue and the BLM, but as I have repeatedly stated; Bundy, Finicum and others have distracted / diluted / distorted this issue beyond recognition.

With the amount of trail apples that passes for news these days, I'm not surprised that the real issues are overshadowed by show. Well, then again, some people seem to prefer eating trail apples over a real meal.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Excellently put! Thank You! You and a few others here are a breath of fresh air in a room full of flatulence.

No one has yet mentioned the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 or Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 of the United States Constitution.

In other words, the road blocks set up by the FBI were illegal. And ... the Federal Government is prohibited from owning any land, in any State, that is not specifically for military bases and other such utilities ... and even then, it cannot be more than 10 square miles.


This is America folks, where the USC is the supreme law of the land - not federal bullying.

a reply to: Phage

Yes, I would assume Hammond's claim is a matter of tax / land record (I don't have access to this), but I was going mainly on historical reports of their herd size prior to the re-classification of their land. Herd sizes are usually over-stated in public reports, and understated in official records, so I'm sure there is some margin of error. However, I think it's fair to say it wasn't something like 300 or 500.

Regarding Bundy, yes, it's a grazing lease (which is an important distinction) because it does not give them title or ownership of the land. I was liberal in my usage of the words 'land lease' for the purposes of expedience. A 'lease' does not grant title or ownership in and of itself anyway, hence my phraseology. But, there are distinctions between a grazing lease and a land lease (these distinctions probably go beyond the scope of discussions here, but they do exist.).

“for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings,”

Notice how there is a complete lack of the word "tortoise'?

a reply to: GeisterFahrer

Posse Comitatus applies to land owned by the persons being intruded upon.

It does not apply to common land, such as roads and infrastructure, nor property under the care and active custody of the federal government. Right or wrong, these are the laws.

You would do well to not interpret the US Constitution with such a broad brush...that, and educate yourself a bit more on the intent of the various provisions.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: GeisterFahrer

Posse Comitatus applies to land owned by the persons being intruded upon.

It does not apply to common land, such as roads and infrastructure, nor property under the care and active custody of the federal government. Right or wrong, these are the laws.

You would do well to not interpret the US Constitution with such a broad brush...that, and educate yourself a bit more on the intent of the various provisions.

Um ... no. The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 limits the Federal Government's role in using Federal Military personnel to enforce domestic policy.

And the FBI is specifically a bureau of INVESTIGATION, but were used as Federal Military Personnel. The publicly elected Sheriff had jurisdiction, not a team of INVESTIGATORS from the Federal Government - which by law, were not even supposed to be intervening.

You would probably do well to listen to your own advice about educating yourself.

Sweet Bleeding Jesus ... the rank ignorance on display here is obscene.

Oregon Governor Kate Brown presses top federal officials for 'swift' action against occupiers

In a letter to the country's top law enforcement officials, Gov. Kate Brown pressed for "swift resolution" of the wildlife refuge occupation outside Burns.

Brown also wrote President Obama calling for action "without further delay."

Our Mission

As an intelligence-driven and a threat-focused national security organization with both intelligence and law enforcement responsibilities, the mission of the FBI is to protect and defend the United States against terrorist and foreign intelligence threats, to uphold and enforce the criminal laws of the United States, and to provide leadership and criminal justice services to federal, state, municipal, and international agencies and partners.


Federal Bureau of Investigation - "About Us"

Sweet Bleeding Jesus ... the rank ignorance on display here is obscene.

Oregon Governor Kate Brown presses top federal officials for 'swift' action against occupiers

In a letter to the country's top law enforcement officials, Gov. Kate Brown pressed for "swift resolution" of the wildlife refuge occupation outside Burns.

Brown also wrote President Obama calling for action "without further delay."

Our Mission

As an intelligence-driven and a threat-focused national security organization with both intelligence and law enforcement responsibilities, the mission of the FBI is to protect and defend the United States against terrorist and foreign intelligence threats, to uphold and enforce the criminal laws of the United States, and to provide leadership and criminal justice services to federal, state, municipal, and international agencies and partners.

Federal Bureau of Investigation - "About Us"

So ... let's see ... Federal Agents had jurisdiction a) because a US Facility on Federal Lands was being occupied by hostile forces b) jurisdiction because the Oregon Governor had requested their help and c) shocker, the FBI is a law-enforcement agency.

Also, apparently, Finicum had stolen Federal property and brought same across State lines, yet another level of proper Federal Jurisdiction.

Allowing Federal Troops to go into States and serve warrants and set up road blocks is in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878. Just because you don't officially call it military does not mean it is not Federal Troops. For a bureaus established specifically for INVESTIGATION to be militarized makes them Federal Troops.

They were established to play an administrative role, and to help investigate crimes involving fugitives crossing State lines (so they could help local and State law enforcement apprehend the fugitive). They had no arresting powers and did not even carry guns.

The law has never changed, bureaucracy did. And now, a bureau for the sole purpose of INVESTIGATION, is playing the role of Federal Troops - which is completely illegal and has been since 1878.