Are 'Christians' allowed to Disagree with 'Jesus' and still be called 'Christians'?

a reply to: areyousirius360

So you're saying that Satan masquerading as an angel of light is not the same thing as a wolf in sheep's clothing? They mean exactly the same thing, someone claiming to be one thing but actually being the opposite.

And where did I say that Jesus was Satan? The Jesus of the gospels is not Satan, the Jesus in Paul's epistles and church doctrine is Satan. The Jesus that spoke in the gospels and the Jesus purported by Paul and the church are two different things.

I'm not lying, not sure why you think I am. Stop getting so angry.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1yes I am absolutely saying that there is a difference and you are stretching. Big time.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1what Paul said is completely unrelated to wolf in sheep's clothing. SATAN MASQUERADING and a human pretending to be good ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. To say that they mean the same thing is ridiculous so maybe you weren't lying and do think that, if so you pretty much make up what suits you at the moment it would seem.

a reply to: areyousirius360

Okay, if you say so.

The number of the beast (Satan) is that of a man, so Satan masquerading as an angel of light (pretending to be something he is not) is the same thing as a man being a wolf in sheep's clothing (pretending to be something he is not).

It's not a stretch at all, it's the same exact concept. What is it about that that makes you so against it? You're getting angry over nothing, you're trying to say they're not the same concept when they clearly are. But believe as you wish Gnosisfaith.

Much of what Jesus taught was so that we would look within and see that we ourselves are guilty and full of sin—not so that we condemn ourselves, but so that we do not hold ourselves as superior to anyone else.

Sadly, what most evangelical churches in the US teach is the exact opposite: a form of moralism in which its members are to elevate themselves above the sinful world by following the church's rules. Sure, worldly folks can leave their old, sinful ways behind them and conform to the ways of the church, thus becoming an accepted member of the inner circle, but really, they're just exchanging one set of sins for another. And arguably, the set of sins within the church more greatly offends God, since they all have pride at their core.

a reply to: Farlander
All you need is Jesus, nobody needs a pastor or priest or any paid preacher to guide them. The Holy Spirit is always around and a better teacher than anyone. It's almost a lack of faith to rely on man for understanding God, we all have the exact same knowledge of God. 0. We have scripture but scripture is not itself God, just some stories about him or them depending on your understanding, and is not fully illuminating. If you don't have the Holy Spirit helping you you're at a disadvantage. Pastors by default based on history and ego can not be trusted, especially if they get paid for it.

a reply to: areyousirius360

Why did Jesus appoint Apostles if no teacher is needed?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

He did say "paid"...

None of the apostles were paid to spread his message... And in this time in anyone wants to find it, well...

There more copies of the bible then any other book in existence... Its there for all to read

originally posted by: Farlander
Much of what Jesus taught was so that we would look within and see that we ourselves are guilty and full of sin—not so that we condemn ourselves, but so that we do not hold ourselves as superior to anyone else.

I almost agree with you.
I would say that Much of what Jesus taught was so that we would look within and see that we ourselves are guilty and full of Sin, so we could see that we need a Savior outside of ourselves.
Us not feeling superior should be an outcropping of recognizing that no one can be righteous enough in our own work to be right with God.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: areyousirius360

Why did Jesus appoint Apostles if no teacher is needed?

I think that conflating the Apostles call to be founders of Churches with the issue of people needing a teacher is not exactly the same thing.
Did the Apostles Preach? Yes they did in fact do that, but their primary roll was to plant Churches across the map.
Do I think people need a preacher to teach them the Bible?
Not necessarily. I think that it can be helpful for some more than others.
I don't discount the idea of someone teaching or preaching the Bible, after all in Acts: 8:27-31 we read...

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

So we see Philip saying to the Ethiopian " Understandest thou what thou readest?"

There would have been no reason to ask that question if he did not think it possible, that the Ethiopian could have understood what he was reading without his help.

Thank God we have so much more access to education and information than that poor Eunuch. If you go to church to learn the bible your gonna get that churches doctrine/interpretation of the bible. A paid preacher will make sure you learnwwhat that church teaches, it's his job. By default getting paid makes him ineligible to preach the Gospel. Can't be trusted, your better off reading the whole thing front to back like youwwould any other book. You can find the answer to any question you have you just need reliable sources.

originally posted by: areyousirius360
Thank God we have so much more access to education and information than that poor Eunuch. If you go to church to learn the bible your gonna get that churches doctrine/interpretation of the bible. A paid preacher will make sure you learnwwhat that church teaches, it's his job. By default getting paid makes him ineligible to preach the Gospel. Can't be trusted, your better off reading the whole thing front to back like youwwould any other book. You can find the answer to any question you have you just need reliable sources.

I somewhat agree with you, I would however not discount a preacher being paid however. It is after all a very real full time job, if they take their calling seriously, and actually do all they are supposed to do.
I don't think they should "demand" money, but if they are a preacher in a established Church building then I see no reason why they should not be able to draw a livable salary.
In short I don't think it makes him ineligible to be a preacher. As we read in 1st Corinthians 9 The Apostle tells the Church that he has a right to expect to be paid for his expenses, just like all the other Apostles, but that he personally was not going to ask for money because he did not want anyone to think he was just trying to get a paycheck.

I think that a preacher teaching what that church teaches, is kind of a non argument.
Why?
Because it is the Preacher doing the teaching.
So in effect whatever that preacher teaches is going to be by default what that Church teaches.

a reply to: Punisher75Yeah I don't agree with that passage at all. You only get paid if you preach what that church believes, and anyone who has read the book can get that job. It's easy and it attracts egomaniacs. Or makes them. You are spiritually weak if you can't interpret the bible with the Holy Spirit helping you and not some heaven salesman.

Keeping in mind of course that preachers in this time make really good money...

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: Punisher75Yeah I don't agree with that passage at all. You only get paid if you preach what that church believes, and anyone who has read the book can get that job. It's easy and it attracts egomaniacs. Or makes them. You are spiritually weak if you can't interpret the bible with the Holy Spirit helping you and not some heaven salesman.

We will have to agree to disagree I think.
Like I said if the Preacher is the teacher then there is no way that he can teach anything other than what the church teaches, because he is after all the one who made the decision on what the church is taught.

I don't think it is an easy job at all if one is an actual pastor of a church.
Remember the job also entails getting up at all hours of the night, to answer phone calls, visiting the sick in hospitals, trying to comfort people who's children have died, answering the same questions over and over etc.
Its not all about the Sunday morning sermon.
I don't feel at all comfortable enough to claim someone is not "spiritually strong" enough if they need to have scripture taught to them, especially in the beginning. After all there are some with reading disabilities, comprehension difficulties, etc.
So far as not agreeing with the passage, I don't think that one can pick and choose passages, if they want to claim to believe what the Bible teaches.
If someone does that they might as well not bother and write their own scripture. The Bible is pretty clear all over the scripture that people are to teach and preach the scripture. We read...

Romans 10:14-17

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

originally posted by: Akragon
Keeping in mind of course that preachers in this time make really good money...

Some do indeed, some are pretty poor. I don't attend Church myself, however the preacher who married me and my wife was unable to live on preacher salary. He worked in the meat department at Winn Dixie full time and his wife had managers job at Walmart I believe.

a reply to: Punisher75people with disabilities get a pass obviously. But churches are not spiritual organizations they are tax exempt corporate entities and attract the worst sorts of conmen on earth. History has proven this. The few good ones just don't make up for the rest. Were all priests. Independent worship is encouraged by Jesus. Not that we can't talk about the bible, just that most churches are schemes.

That reminds me what at that time science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard said in the early 50's

"Writing for a penny a word is useless, if a man really wants to make a million dollars he should start his own religion."

Hubbard died and left a 600,000,000 dollar empire that has grown called Scientology. Stay away from gurus and holy men.

originally posted by: areyousirius360
a reply to: Punisher75people with disabilities get a pass obviously. But churches are not spiritual organizations they are tax exempt corporate entities and attract the worst sorts of conmen on earth. History has proven this. The few good ones just don't make up for the rest.

I don't know I think the bigger problem is the lack of scholarship among Pastors.
In so far as con-men are concerned for every "Joel Olsteen" there are thousands of small town pastors.

According to the book Beyond Megachurch Myths, there were 320,000 Christian U.S. churches in 2007. Of these U.S. churches, 1,250 were megachurches with an average weekend attendance of 2,000 or more.

churchrelevance.com...

Preachers are useless church is a Sunday show for the family. It's ritual and a lot of b.s. I have a preacher, his name is Yeshua.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Through Jesus God created everything. Jesus is Lord. His teachings, when understood, are infallible.

Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf, one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived:

"Lastly, the great character they have portrayed is perfect. It is the character of a sinless Being; of one supremely wise and supremely good. It exhibits no error, no sinister intention, no imprudence, no ignorance, no evil passion, no impatience; in a word, no fault; but all is perfect uprightness, innocence, wisdom, goodness and truth. The mind of man has never conceived the idea of such a character, even for his gods; nor has history or poetry shadowed it forth. The doctrines and precepts of Jesus are in strict accordance with the attributes of God, agreeably to the most exalted idea which we can form of them, either from reason or from revelation. They are strikingly adapted to the capacity of mankind, and yet are delivered with a simplicity and majesty wholly divine. He spake as never man spake. He spake with authority; yet addressed himself to the reason and the understanding of men; and he spake with wisdom, which men could neither gainsay nor resist. In his private life, he exhibits a character not merely of strict justice, but of flowing benignity. He is temperate, without austerity; his meekness and humility are signal; his patience is invincible; truth and sincerity illustrate his whole conduct; every one of his virtues is regulated by consummate prudence; and he both wins the love of his friends, and extorts the wonder and admiration of his enemies. He is represented in every variety of situation in life, from the height of worldly grandeur, amid the acclamations of an admiring multitude, to the deepest abyss of human degradation and woe, apparently deserted of God and man. Yet everywhere he is the same; displaying a character of unearthly perfection, symmetrical in all its proportions, and encircled with splendor more than human. Either the men of Galilee were men of superlative wisdom, and extensive knowledge and experience, and of deeper skill in the arts of deception, than any and all others, before or after them, or they have truly stated the astonishing things which they saw and heard."


Your question needs some scholarship:

yt: Lee Strobel - The Case for the Resurrection
www.youtube.com...
yt: The Bible Is True! ~ The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict
www.youtube.com...
yt: Walter Veith (13) Battle of the Bibles /Total Onslaught
youtu.be...

youtube: The Resurrection Argument That Changed a Generation of Scholars - Gary Habermas at UCSB youtu.be...

yt: Chuck Missler - How We Got Our Bible
youtu.be...