Are 'Christians' allowed to Disagree with 'Jesus' and still be called 'Christians'?

originally posted by: areyousirius360
KJV isn't bad it's just old, and we know about certain translation errors that ate too important to just leave. The NKJV
is bad though.

Actually, they are all bad in my opinon, for the simple fact that things get 'lost' in translation. Ever wondered why it's called 'The Bible, according to KJ? He was the top dog back in his day, the elite of the elite. He decided what meant what and what goes where
The main issue with scripture: while it is possible the original authors were divinely inspired, whatever they wrote down or passed down could have been interpreted differently.
God's primary method of communicating with creations is through feeling, not words, for this very reason. It was the so called authorities who forced the false view of scriptures being true and infallable.

originally posted by: Thereisaspoon

originally posted by: areyousirius360
KJV isn't bad it's just old, and we know about certain translation errors that ate too important to just leave. The NKJV
is bad though.

Actually, they are all bad in my opinon, for the simple fact that things get 'lost' in translation. Ever wondered why it's called 'The Bible, according to KJ? He was the top dog back in his day, the elite of the elite. He decided what meant what and what goes where
The main issue with scripture: while it is possible the original authors were divinely inspired, whatever they wrote down or passed down could have been interpreted differently.
God's primary method of communicating with creations is through feeling, not words, for this very reason. It was the so called authorities who forced the false view of scriptures being true and infallable.

This is an interesting view point, I am wondering how you would understand the passage in Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Emphasis mine.
Not to argue just curious.

If you happen to be a Born Again Christian, it is impossible to disagree with Jesus. Praise the Lord
a reply to: Sigismundus

originally posted by: Punisher75


This is an interesting view point, I am wondering how you would understand the passage in Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Emphasis mine.
Not to argue just curious.

Well of course it would depend on the context of the situation at hand and who exactly said those words.

Nevertheless, I categorically disagree with the notion that the heart is deceitful or wicked. This simply cannot be true. Generally, imo, if something is truly 'from the heart' or done with love, truth and honesty are easily recognizable.
Desperation...well maybe but I believe feelings are confused with thoughts far more than we might think, and acts of desperation are consequences of someone elses thoughts we may have adopted.

originally posted by: Nochzwei
If you happen to be a Born Again Christian, it is impossible to disagree with Jesus. Praise the Lord
a reply to: Sigismundus

Impossible? Have you ever gotten into an altercation where someone unjustly and without provocation caused physical harm to you or someone you love? Did you defend yourself? Jesus teaches to turn the other cheek, therefore if your answer is yes you did hit back, it is impossible for you to be born again, by Your own logic.

originally posted by: Thereisaspoon

originally posted by: Punisher75


This is an interesting view point, I am wondering how you would understand the passage in Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Emphasis mine.
Not to argue just curious.

Well of course it would depend on the context of the situation at hand and who exactly said those words.

Nevertheless, I categorically disagree with the notion that the heart is deceitful or wicked. This simply cannot be true. Generally, imo, if something is truly 'from the heart' or done with love, truth and honesty are easily recognizable.
Desperation...well maybe but I believe feelings are confused with thoughts far more than we might think, and acts of desperation are consequences of someone elses thoughts we may have adopted.

Here is the context, discussion of the disobedience and punishment of Judah.

5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

So this I think tells us quite a bit. Namely it is not man or ourselves who can know the Heart but rather God.

originally posted by: Thereisaspoon

originally posted by: Nochzwei
If you happen to be a Born Again Christian, it is impossible to disagree with Jesus. Praise the Lord
a reply to: Sigismundus

Impossible? Have you ever gotten into an altercation where someone unjustly and without provocation caused physical harm to you or someone you love? Did you defend yourself? Jesus teaches to turn the other cheek, therefore if your answer is yes you did hit back, it is impossible for you to be born again, by Your own logic.

I largely agree with this statement so long as the Christian can recognize that they are objectively wrong.

a reply to: Punisher75
I consider the possibilty of God saying those exact words very slim. Yes God can see what is in our hearts and on our minds, so theres no reason from him to have to search it. God also gave us the ability to have a 'change of heart' so to speak, after all he is a merciful God who prefers to forgive instead of condemn.

originally posted by: Thereisaspoon
a reply to: Punisher75
I consider the possibilty of God saying those exact words very slim. Yes God can see what is in our hearts and on our minds, so theres no reason from him to have to search it. God also gave us the ability to have a 'change of heart' so to speak, after all he is a merciful God who prefers to forgive instead of condemn.

I agree God does indeed allow people to repent. However neither changing your mind or having a change of heart, is in view in the passage in Jeremiah.

I would go further and say that repentance (turning away from sin), is not an act of the heart, but rather an act of the mind.
The Changing of the Heart is an act of sanctification, and not in fact an act of repentance done by man but rather God.
How do we know this?
Because of what the method of Sanctification is. (Emphasis mine)

Philippians 2:13 (ESV)
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

So what we see here in my estimation is it is God himself who places the desire (i.e. will) in the Christian to do Godly Good, after the act of Repentance.

What is the difference between Godly Good and Earthly good? We know there is a difference because we read, in
Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So what is the difference?
A Godless work or deed does not mean "Bad" it however does mean that God did not ordain it. In short not everything that mankind does that is "good" is of God.

The word for Sand in the Revelation verse(s) I quoted earlier in relation to the KJV, is Gr. «Ammon». It is used one other place in NT, and that is in Matthew 7:24-27

“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the [Ammon] sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” [ESV] Matthew 7:24-27

Jesus is pretty clear that faith without works is stupid and leads to ruin. To call oneself a Christian and and not acting out what the Jebus wants, well, I guess he could still call himself a stupid Christian or a Christian fool I suppose.

a reply to: Punisher75

Agreed.
For the most part, I agree that what Jesus preached about is fair and honest. But I certainly could not imagine that disagreements with a few of his words is un Christian or grounds for any of us to question someones faith or heart.

originally posted by: Thereisaspoon
a reply to: Punisher75

Agreed.
For the most part, I agree that what Jesus preached about is fair and honest. But I certainly could not imagine that disagreements with a few of his words is un Christian or grounds for any of us to question someones faith or heart.

I think then we are largely in agreement.
I am willing to accept that a Christian can "disagree" in so far as they are misunderstanding him, and maybe not "getting it". In effect disagreeing with what they "think" he meant however I cannot imagine a Christian knowing exactly what he meant would be able to objectively disagree.
The reason for that is if a person is an "Orthodox" Christian then they must believe that Christ is in fact God. Therefore if God is the divine source of truth, and the arbitrator of truth then disagree with Christ would be to disagree with an objective truth.
Now if a Christian believes that Christ is making absolute truth claims and still disagrees with him then we have a problem, because that would be self refuting.
Hopefully that makes sense.

a reply to: Punisher75
Indeed. There are occasions where I 'dont get' certain things either lol, but Im a slow learner

(Google the children of certain groups of people that are shoot down, like the one that was shot 9 times and killed, because his parents refused to attend a "Black Lives Matter Protest" on the grounds that it promoted "Suicide by Cop" ... paraphrasing ... there are many people that believe they are Christians, and that we should keep forgiving actions that promote, encourage and perform the practice of suicide and other offenses ... thats a violation of the gospel's law ... nonetheless we are to tolerate them with some degree of mercy as long as we remain spiritually unyoked ... naturally the final message of the gospel is that God performs the work of dividing the people at the events of revelation.)

MATTHEW 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
ROMANS 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus = Propitiation or Payment for our Walk of Faith

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost = Jesus does not apply as payment for sin:
1. Spiritual Sin which you have no control over
2. Willful Sin which you have control over
3. Generation Sin which you have no control over

Spirit, Water and Blood testify of Jesus and cohorts the Gospel's Program. If the Antichrist claims all human life outside the USA do not have a future or an inheritance in the new universe, then he is quoting both Jesus and the Gospel's Program. If the Antichrist claims certain Genetic Lines do not have a future or an inheritance in the new universe, then his is quoting both Jesus and the Gospel's Program. If the Antichrist claims Aaron must pay a blood sacrifice then if that is not paid when it is called for, then they do not have a future or an inheritance in the new universe. (So you can understand what keeps happening to their kinds, and why they keep hurting the Antichrist, and why the end of life is the only measure the gospel reinforces as the solution). Love and Blessings.

There are a few personalities listed in the book of revelation, Jesus, John, David, Moses ... ... ... ... so which one is the Antichrist, which one wears the "Mark of the Beast" necessary to serve the other God Joseph, and complete the 144,000 of Joseph described in Revelation? God has completed the salvation of Jesus, John, David, Moses ... the gospel declares you die only once and then your judgment is completed. God revealed each of these personalities as having their judgment completed in the Gospel (David does not reign, Jeremiah 33:20-21, God revealed, Jesus, and Moses with Elias in the New Testament in heaven, and the John is called an Angel of the Lord in the Book of Revelation). You cannot serve two masters, either you will serve God or you will serve the God Joseph.

The Antichrist cannot be Jesus, John, David, Moses or any of the Angels or Prophets recorded in the Gospel. However this is what the Antichrist is described as in the Gospel:

NUMBERS 20:8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
NUMBERS 35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

The Antichrist is called the "Instrument of Iron", Moses was guilty of killing a man by baring the "Instrument of Iron", that man was Jesus, and because Moses had done that act, God killed him on the top of a mountain.

DEUTERONOMY 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up [any] iron [tool] upon them.
REVELATION 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

God tells Moses that you will not serve as the Antichrist in Deu. 27:5. God tells us that the "Son of Man's Child" will reign as the Antichrist. Technically this is a description of the Rod or Staff of Moses in Num. 20:8.

The Antichrist is loved greatly by Jesus Christ, and the Antichrist believes very strongly in the equal potential the gospel affords through the motions of its Program. The Antichrist has also witnesses with the prophets and Jesus for a very long period of time. It is this love and promise that Jesus will pronounce in his name, in my name or perhaps in your name (haha). That drives the suicides of Genetic Dan, and will come to fruition when the Sign of Antipas/Antiparticle/Divorce is shown before the nations in the USA. The Antichrist has also been teaching the beauty of being faithful and enduring suffering by conducting himself the way he has been. He is not deceived or in anyway dismayed about the events of the revelation and its satisfaction, since man is incapable of giving him a certain level of suffering, pain and death without experiencing euthanasia, just watch Genetic Dan, you will come full circle soon, in the events of revelation.

"Two Witnesses" is God's Treatment of the Antichrist as an Angel of his own to demonstrate his love, and it is this love that drives Genetic Dan and the sinful to take their own lives, of which you will see much more soon. Love and Blessings (I do not have the full cooperation of the media or the authorities in promoting a humane solution to the burden of living at this moment, so we will talk here and there are the future of man, and the imminent time table that is to begin soon). (the christian community is incapable of accepting this truth, my truth, however when they are faced with this truth soon, they will come to terms or suffer very painfully before they die, so I don't want much pressure placed on to them, because I'm not into the promotion of cruelty but the due processes of the law).

disobeying is quite different from disagreeing I think.
a reply to: Thereisaspoon

a reply to: Nochzwei


You wrote QUOTE "If you happen to be a Born Again Christian, it is impossible to disagree with Jesus. Praise the Lord..."
UNQUOTE

So according to your rule, anyone who divorces his wife/husband you cannot re-marry since it would 'go against Jesus'?

So much for ultra conservative evangelical Christians like Anita Bryant ! It should be VERY interesting to see how the 'fundamentalist Bible Belt' will deal with the thrice-divorced Donald Trump !!

originally posted by: Sigismundus
a reply to: Nochzwei


You wrote QUOTE "If you happen to be a Born Again Christian, it is impossible to disagree with Jesus. Praise the Lord..."
UNQUOTE

So according to your rule, anyone who divorces his wife/husband you cannot re-marry since it would 'go against Jesus'?

So much for ultra conservative evangelical Christians like Anita Bryant ! It should be VERY interesting to see how the 'fundamentalist Bible Belt' will deal with the thrice-divorced Donald Trump !!

So are you throwing the first stone? Forgiveness is plentiful for anyone who is genuinely sorry for their mistakes.

a reply to: Sigismundus

A Christian is a follower of Christ. Now Jesus lived a long time before any human was created, and knows far more. For you to disagree with him, I can understand that. Just the way a baby may disagree it is a bad idea to touch a hot stove or it may burn them.

1. Jesus did not advocate everyone selling everything they had and giving to the poor. Look at what he really said:

(Matthew 19:21-24) . . .Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come be my follower.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away grieved, for he had many possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to you that it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”


Now who was Jesus talking to? It was to a man trying to proclaim his righteous standing before everyone. Jesus saw something lacking in him. He was a rich man, and Jesus could read the man's heart, he loved the riches to much.

In any event, he was proven right, because the man did love his money to much. He could not part with it.

What is the point? If you love money more than you do God, than you are not worthy of him. And I am sure that no amount of money will ever save anyone ever. Yet a god name with Jehovah will.


2. His stance on divorce is not that you cannot ever divorce ever. You forgot to add one key portion to that scripture:

(Matthew 5:32) . . .However, I say to you that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of sexual immorality, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

So he said that a person has free grounds for divorce is God's eyes if the partner is guilty of adultery, that is having immoral sexual relations, having sex outside of the sacred marriage bond God has blessed. That can include many things as well (homosexual relations, bestiality, oral sex, anal sex, laying down with someone of the opposite sex, etc. you get the point).

You lied in this point. And it is proven. The whole charade of your argument fell in point one, but this point reveals your bias even more.


3. Jesus came to earth fo a limited time to preach only to the Jews. He was only on earth preaching for a limited amount of time, 3 1/2 years. He did not have time to preach to the entire world. And the promise did originally lay with the Jews to became a holy priesthood of kings and priests who would rule in heaven over the earth. But the majority of them rejected the Messiah, and in 36 C. E. holy spirit lead Peter to an uncircumcised gentile (person of the nations), the Roman Centurion, Cornelius and anointed him with holy spirit.

And since then Christians were commanded by Jesus Christ to teach the truth and bring it to the people of the nations (gentiles):

(Ephesians 2:15-18) . . .By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace, 16 and to reconcile fully both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to you who were far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have free access to the Father by one spirit.


And as for the gentiles that expressed true faith in Jesus, he never rejected them. The example you gave us, Jesus tested the woman's faith, and when she showed it to him, he blessed her for it.

For example when one Roman army officer exercised faith in Jesus, Jesus saw his faith was greater than everyone in Israel and said this:

(Matthew 8:10-12) . . .When Jesus heard that, he was amazed and said to those following him: “I tell you the truth, with no one in Israel have I found so great a faith. 11 But I tell you that many from east and west will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of the heavens; 12 whereas the sons of the Kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. . . .


Again, your argument is totally destroyed.



4. The word proclivity means: a tendency to choose or do something regularly; an inclination or predisposition toward a particular thing..

If Jesus was really inclined to violence then we should read about his violent outbursts regularly. But you do not. Rather it was only when he saw the Jews in his Father's temple, extorting fellow Jews. He had such a righteous indignation that he could not tolerate such robbery where true worship should be taking place.

Only outright frauds and evil men would condemn Jesus for showing righteous indignation toward such crass behavior.

And it was not often he behaved such. Rather, he often chose to run away when people tried to grab him and hang him, or stone him, or throw him over a cliff for teaching and loving truth.

Again your bias is shown, and totally destroyed.


5. Where is what Jesus said wrong? If you think of having sex with someone else than your married partner, in your mind you are committing adultery (sex relations outside the marriage bond) with that person in your heart, are you not? He never said you committed the act, he said in your mind you committed the act. And that is true. Or can you say, you did not think what you were thinking? This claim is just beyond silly.

One thing you should think about as well. Jesus is able to read your heart. And God can see even the innermost thoughts of your heart. You may think no one else can see you fornicating outside of marriage in your mind, but God can.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Jesus obviously was not a fan of marriage and he also prophesied that we would quit the whole marriage pact thing in the future: «[...]they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.» And angels come in pairs, hell, they come with Greek sagas, gods and angels like Zeus and Hercules don't usually marry, their children are gods, their protection sort of comes with mothers' milk with these guys. And they reign far above any oath kings and the emperors could force upon them.

Reading Jesus' words it becomes clear he thinks swearing oaths is evil, and that marriage means damnation until death, for all we know he had himself buried and restored to break out of his own wedlock, marriage, it's Original Sin, the wed are walking dead people unto Jesus, sworn in with death «Leave the dead to bury their own dead», these days they even swear upon the head of the children they baptise in our modern worlds, to love and protect until death.

Jesus tells us «Do not take an oath at all», and marriage is a oath. Jesus believed in love, «Love each other!» he ordered. And he also said, that «If you love me, keep my commands». We shall love eachother, not swear. James the Just teaches his fans «Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear--». Marriage is an oath and you swear to love and care for your spouse for as long as you do live. Who can swear to love someone until death?

Marriage and modern Baptism is a bit like the Army, basically the same oath, only it's not king and country, it's wife and offspring, a sort of scaled down variant of the oath of warfare that will give you the power to kill anyone not carrying the same mark as you in his forehead. The Army. War. Death. These are oaths where you sell your soul and become a soldier-- a soul-dier, bound to give your life to die alone if the lords desire, for king and country, to protect the women and the children.

On a sideline, but relevant to how deep this whole madness reaches: The word 'Queen' is basically the same word as Norwegian 'Kvinne', which is our word for Woman. And the word King comes from Norse 'Konungr'. In modern Norwegian that becomes «Kone-unge», «Wife-child». The price the king and queen pays for all your souls, is the burden of a lump of gold with a few mighty gems on their heads and some golden stick.