"Why do non-Christians come here?" Here's why -

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

WHY are you refusing to understand that some children are abused by the religious doctrines they are force-fed????

I'm very happy for you that you were allowed to decide when you came of age.
That is EXACTLY what I think should be happening.

I am fully aware that some children are abused. It occurs several times a day, every day. It happens whether the abuser claims to be religious, or an atheist. I know because it is my job.

Again, I warn not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because some children are abused, there is no reason to treat all children as if they are being abused.

As far as that video goes, those are adult thoughts and ideas that are placed in a video with a child, to foster an agenda.

I was never told any of those things when i was a child, and I am willing to bet, if you visited an average religious class for children, you will hear nothing that even remotely sounds like anything in that video.

Someone came to those conclusions as an adult, or feels they had a forced and unhappy religious experience, made that video to express what they believe, and I have no problem with that. But to claim that this is what is being taught in your average religious classes for children is disingenuous.

I am sorry that you had such a horrible experience as a child. I can see that it has made you very angry and hostile towards religion.

I find it interesting that neither of us have a love for religion, yet we have polar opposite views on how others should view religion.

Religion makes little sense to me, and I have difficulty understanding why people choose to believe what they do, but I will never attempt to prevent them from believing what works for them in their lives.

While you wish to abolish all religions, and prevent people from being able to worship to their choosing and to prevent them from raising their children in their faith, I believe they and their children have the same right of choice that I have.

I too believe this world will be better off without the obstacles, and the handicaps, that I believe are caused by religious beliefs, but that is just my opinion. I don't think it is my right to prevent people from choosing their religion.

We don't need to protect children from religion, we need to protect children from people that will do them harm. If there is any danger to be had, it comes from the sickness of the abuser, not from religion or any other excuse they will try to use.

People have the right of choice, and they have the right to raise their children as they see fit. As long as they are not harming their children or breaking the law, no on has the right to tell what to do, no matter, what your personal thoughts are on the matter.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

I am fully aware that some children are abused. It occurs several times a day, every day. It happens whether the abuser claims to be religious, or an atheist. I know because it is my job.

It was my job, too. It is STILL my "job", whether or not I am 'earning a living' doing it. I retired from my career in the profession.

We don't need to protect children from religion, we need to protect children from people that will do them harm. If there is any danger to be had, it comes from the sickness of the abuser, not from religion or any other excuse they will try to use.

Right!
So, why are you not able to grasp what I'm saying?

People have the right of choice, and they have the right to raise their children as they see fit. As long as they are not harming their children or breaking the law, no on has the right to tell what to do, no matter, what your personal thoughts are on the matter.

I am talking specifically about when people ARE harming their children!
sheesh! Why are you not listening to what I'm saying? I do not condone interference UNLESS A CHILD IS BEING HARMED.
I know what HARMS A CHILD. Therefore, I will do my best to educate people on what behaviors might HARM THEIR CHILD.

What is your problem with this?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: spirit_horse

but when did the US use religion to go to war? I am honestly asking because I haven't really thought that was the case.

G W Bush declared war on Iraq because "God told him to."

WOW! I didn't know that. That is a disturbing thought in itself. He claimed to be a Christian, but I wonder with his activities with Skull n Bones and the Bohemian Grove.

a reply to: spirit_horse

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

Mr Bush, who became a born-again Christian at 40, is one of the most overtly religious leaders to occupy the White House, a fact which brings him much support in middle America.

Disturbing indeed.
Thanks for your attention.



Additional source

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I have nothing against your tuning in to this program. In fact I would welcome you to join in discussion. You certainly could use the education from your above statement. The first thing you should realize in your quest to educate the masses is that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are not the same deity. Jesus was and is not God and Allah is no part of Christianity.

Now you have that screwed up in my view. First, God said, "Thou shall worship no other God but me for I am a jealous God". He never said there weren't other gods. Christians believe in the Almighty God, the Creator, and Jesus said repeatedly to people that bowed down and tried to start worshiping him, to get up and don't worship me, but the Father in Heaven. We or I may pray to him to pray for us to the father, but that Father is the same as the Jewish God. Jesus may be divine, but is the Son of Man. He sacrificed his life in fulfillment of the prophecy of the Old Testament. Some say he fulfilled 109 prophecies whereas any other only fulfilled 3-9 prophecies.

Disclaimer: I am not Muslim and this is information I gleaned discussing it with Muslims or reading certain texts on the religion. So, take it with a grain of salt.

I can't vouch for the veracity because Muslims don't always tell the truth when talking to Infidels. Now, the question is different concerning Islam. As Allah was the pagan Moon God in the Arab world prior to Islam. The Kaaba in Mecca was a place of worship of Pagans and it was filled with their Gods. It is said Mohamed threw out those Gods and installed only Allah (term meaning God in modern use, not Moon God), but no one has been able to view inside to see what changed. He was very well recognized by them. The prophet Mohamed adapted the name and many modern Muslims argue they mean the Almighty as well, the Creator of man. Another thing that people that don't study Christianity or been in the practice for many decades, don't realize Jesus said he did not come to change the law of the old testament.

As far as I understand and could be wrong, Muslims accept the old testament and that Jesus was a prophet. So, in reality, there is a lot of commonality between the three religions. The whole last supper things was to "Do this in remembrance of me" (Jesus). I have heard Muslims say they use Allah as a term for God, not the Moon God, but that was where Mohamed originally got it from.

I guess that you would have to understand more about what happen to Christianity (RCC) with Constantine in 3xxAD. He is the one that changed the Sabbath to Sunday because Romans worshiped a Sun God before and to bring into their church some of these Pagan beliefs to bring more of the population into it has caused problems with the straight bible Christianity. Hence, so many sects breaking off the RCC and following the bible. People don't realize it was monks that hand scribe the bible up until around 1440AD when the printing press came to be.

So, you can have issues with changes from different translations, condensing of stories (since it was hand written) and books being taken out. It is one of the problems I have with the current composition of the bible. Words that didn't translate from Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin, and to English had changes made in what you actually read. Remember Jesus said if someone changed even one word that they would face all the wrath of God described in Revelations. It is basically the result of leading so many astray. I could show some of the differences just in Genesis. But, I think I said enough and don't wan't to drag the thread off into another tangent.

The problem comes in when people claim Jesus is God or a God. That is wrong. He ascended to heaven to be seated at the right hand of the father. He is the Light bearer which some Muslims try to associate with Satan because he was the light bearer. However, Lucifer was a powerful angel that rebelled at God's demand they worship humans as he gave them souls. He was thrown down to Earth with other fallen angels. I think he may have been the morning star, and the light bearer before being thrown down. Jesus took that place and title after resurrection. I also believe that these so called Angels were the military wing of God, because of their use in destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. God was walking with Abraham in the mountains when he dispatched his angels to go destroy the two cities for their decadence. It make one wonder what God is? Some radical thought is he was alien General? But, I digress.

Anyway, Mohamed was a warlord and had Christians for friends. He admonished his followers to not fight against them until later. I don't want to say much more about Mohamed and it is of little use. However, I find it funny that people that argue things about Christianity or Islam really don't know that much about it and don't understand some of the dogma and things symbolically carried out. I have seen countless false claims and non-believers cling to these statements. I say if you aren't immersed in study of a subject, you don't know that much about it.

a reply to: spirit_horse

Wow. Impressive post.

I am about 1/3 the way through it.....
just wanted to let you know it's being read.

*******************************

EDIT: And...done (skimming it at least).

I look forward to realizing the potential that our dialogue (so far) has illuminated. Will read again later.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

So how does what they endured in their religious training as a child, translate to lashing out at people that had nothing t do with whatever they felt they were forced to endure?

Since my goal is to discourage any person who may cause injury to a child by feeding them a doctrine that shames them (or a food that poisons them), I will continue to bring up the harm done, to discuss why that is happening, and to say to those persons:

"Hey, don't feed the kid that - it will stunt his or her growth, and mess with their immune system." Like, tainted baby formula for example. Product recall is in order when that happens. PSA: don't feed your kid this. It's unhealthy.

I disagree with not teaching kids about the religion. I do disagree with forcing them to practice it. Teaching them moral understanding and what it is all about is a must. However, there is a huge divide on parents teaching their kids their way of life, and the state wanting to indoctrinate kids into the government lockstep. It is unhealthy to your point of view. I know many children that are happy with their faith and many going on to adult life quite happy. I think people outside don't understand the many different sects involved and the vastly different way they do so.

There are 3 Billion people that are quite happy and healthy, successful in society and even do their own thing. This includes scientists, biologists, doctors, etc. You cannot say it will stunt their growth and other BS statements. I was raised into the system, but I have lived a life that with enough diverse and bad things too that no 40 people could amass in their life. It hasn't effected me. I have climbed to the top of several organizations.

So, teaching kids things like religion to give them and understanding of the spiritual teachings that are believed to benefit them in the afterlife is a very good idea and will prepare them for much more that a non-believer whose growth is stunted in the spiritual and supernatural. I say non-believers are the ones stunted. You can claim otherwise, but bottom line is you just write off 3 billion or more people that believe in their religion. What if you are totally wrong? You won't be happy upon finding yourself in an afterlife unprepared for it. If there is none, and I know there is, then what you have done is ignore a large part of the world and will be unprepared for what you face. It will be too late then and If I am wrong, well nothing is lost. If you are wrong, well I feel sorry for you.

a reply to: spirit_horse

I disagree with not teaching kids about the religion.

Ok, I want you to notice what you typed. "about the religion."

I think kids should be taught "about ALL religions," but not until they are at least 10 years old......and when they turn ten, they learn about all of them.

because education

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: spirit_horse

I disagree with not teaching kids about the religion.

Ok, I want you to notice what you typed. "about the religion."

I think kids should be taught "about ALL religions," but not until they are at least 10 years old......and when they turn ten, they learn about all of them.

because education

My bad. Yes, I agree they should be exposed to all of the data not just one point of view.

I went to college for engineering and have a strong scientific bent. That is why I mentioned before I didn't like what was being said by the RCC at mass. I was forced to be indoctrinated in the RCC and it has ticked me off all my life. I am of the opinion if your dogma is so good, force is quite unnecessary. It is probably the reason I became such a dangerous person in my life. Going through military, into intelligence, and many other things I won't mention. Killing was my job in the Army and in the Intelligence agencies. I was on a very special task force to terminate corrupt agents involved in very bad things before they caused the government problems worse than they already were. I could write books about things I was involved in here and out of country. Today, I think I was full of anger and animosity and didn't care about life.

My hostility started very young having religion stuffed down my throat. I was very psychic and had other experiences with other life forms from age 4. I had real issues with the RCC. It took long term decompression to bring me to the comparatively mellow person I am today. I died twice, had body bags called out for me by state police, and been shot twice, and had numerous roll over accidents as a result of high speed chase wrecks. Had last rites given to me, life support in coma, and on and on ad nauseum. I have had 23 major surgeries, my entire right side has been rebuilt and I am full of titanium plates, screws, and rods. Part of this is the reason I came around back to religion. Experiences dying and going into the afterlife.

So, knowing what I know about the afterlife I feel strongly that people need to work on their spirituality in a profound way. I don't feel you need to pursue any particular dogma, and there are many ways to purify ones self and be ready to face you next and eternal life. Some choose to stay there, some choose to renter a physical reality for another short (compared to eternal time) lifestyle. I mentioned in another post in this thread that my beliefs are truly a hybrid view of several spiritual paths. I studies world religion in college and it interested me. I DO NOT believe people are going for eternal punishment because they don't follow someones dogma. It causes me a lot of friction among family (all RCC champions). II don't want to discuss it with them. The have believed all their life and can't handle some of the things I could show them where they are wrong. Still, Christianity is a good part of my belief system, but not what most people think and do with their belief in Christianity.

Look, you can not force a belief into someone and if you have to threaten them, like some religions do, well it says a lot about how weak their beliefs are. However, we will have to agree to disagree about the subject of the OP. Once people believe in their particular brand of religion, they won't accept someone that doesn't believe to join the group to tell them they are wrong and it is a fairy tale. It depends on the discussion. I have people who are Christians try to have a discussion with me and it usually results in them losing control of themselves. I think it is funny that they are so insecure and so unwilling to discuss anything outside their beliefs. My father 82 now last time we argued went to the book store and got a couple books on his beliefs and the RCC. He was trying to prove me wrong. Well years later and he gave up. I don't ever go out looking for an argument and don;t ever start a conversation. It is them that start it and when they can't overcome my positions in the debate they result in being irate and to me disturbed in their lack of ability to come up with an argument. I could give them positions to defend themselves, but what is the fun in that lol!

a reply to: spirit_horse

Now you have that screwed up in my view. First, God said, "Thou shall worship no other God but me for I am a jealous God". He never said there weren't other gods.

I did not say there were not other gods in other peoples religions.

I did say that -- "The first thing you should realize in your quest to educate the masses is that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are not the same deity. Jesus was and is not God and Allah is no part of Christianity." -- That is not to say that the roots of Christianity and Islam did not embrace some aspects of Abraham but that is as far it will ever go.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Corinthians_8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1Corinthians_8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians_4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Judah or the house of David were not Christians. None of these Hebrews had any conception of Jesus or the Christ Jesus. Not one were Christians. Jesus Himself was not a Christian nor did He establish His church till His death. That death was the New covenant of His blood which offered the kingdom of heaven to mankind. Before that there was no kingdom of heaven offered and no terrestrial man had ever ascended into the celestial realm of the Father God.

Jesus came in the flesh of a terrestrial man and His flesh died as a terrestrial man.

He is recorded as saying "John 3:16-18
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Christianity hinges upon that very concept of the one God.

I understand that other people have other gods but the God of Christianity does not agree with the Judaic rabbinic god or the Islamic god. Christianity has but one God which is the Father of the begotten Son Jesus. Muhammad has never submitted to the Begotten Son of the God of Jesus. In that light Muhammad made himself equal with the Christ Jesus and has denied the deity of Jesus as the Begotten of God. As Jesus has said "he that believeth not is condemned already."

Hey, as long as there is some decorum, a good discussion is fine. Isn't that what these forums are about?
Secular Humanism is a reilgion, and it's replaced Christianity in the schools, and I might add that the GAIA religion of Climate Change has replaced genuine scientific study with a political agenda.

www.dianedew.com...

and

federal district court in Oregon has declared Secular Humanism a religion, paving the way for the non-theistic community to obtain the same legal rights as groups such as Christianity.
On Thursday, October 30, Senior District Judge Ancer Haggerty issued a ruling on American Humanist Association v. United States, a case that was brought by the American Humanist Association (AHA) and Jason Holden, a federal prisoner. Holden pushed for the lawsuit because he wanted Humanism — which the AHA defines as “an ethical and life-affirming philosophy free of belief in any gods and other supernatural forces” — recognized as a religion so that his prison would allow for the creation of a Humanist study group. Haggerty sided with the plaintiffs in his decision, citing existing legal precedent and arguing that denying Humanists the same rights as groups such as Christianity would be highly suspect under the Establishment Clause in the U.S. Constitution, which declares that Congress “shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”

“The court finds that Secular Humanism is a religion for Establishment Clause purposes,” the ruling read.

thinkprogress.org...

Dontcha love it!!!!

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

im sorry, how is secular humanism a religion? secular means without religion and humanism places man above theological figures.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I just want to say you expressed very clearly what should be simple, yet some fail to understand, but I really think they do understand they just want to cause havoc with there ideology. I don't know how many times about a dozen people of faith on ATS are seriously discussing a subject within the context of religion/bible/God, and somebody just has drop in around page 6 and say why are you wasting your time discussing something that doesn't exist. My favorite was "you guys might as well be discussing the magical purple flying spaghetti monster in the sky", or something asinine like that.

Oh I am sure they get it, and they don't care, but I was reading a MOD's posts on alerts and I think those are worth a try the next time somebody interjects in this forum with that type of off-topic reteric.

Honest questions are always welcome from the sincere agnostics on ATS, but I can do with the type of atheist that goes around poking fun every time, in a forum that is suppose to have moved past the basics as forum guidelines you quoted stated. These are sub-forum rules that are suppose gate keep to a small degree this sub-forum unlike the other forums which don't have that disclaimer.
There are other forums on ATS that are available to be harsher on faith and I fully expect it in those threads and forums.

a reply to: spirit_horse


Which god though eh?. Even if it was n the name of the true living God it's a man at the end of the day. Here in the U.K years ago if you were rich you would either be a lawyer or a vicar. No true calling there. People will always use power and religion to do things that God doesn't ask of us. Additionally as per the prince of tyre demonic forces corrupt and influence humans.

Why not slaughter people and say God told them? What a victory of sorts for lucifer and his merry men

Regards

a reply to: spirit_horse


Which god though eh?. Even if it was n the name of the true living God it's a man at the end of the day. Here in the U.K years ago if you were rich you would either be a lawyer or a vicar. No true calling there. People will always use power and religion to do things that God doesn't ask of us. Additionally as per the prince of tyre demonic forces corrupt and influence humans.

Why not slaughter people and say God told them? What a victory of sorts for lucifer and his merry men

Regards

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Hello, I hope you don't mind me interjecting here.

My wife grew up n a family that was loving, that said she was forced to go to church and was forced to play the piano at service etc etc. Since we met and got married, she questioned what was right in the bible. Especially as she could see some hypocrisy in her own family. It's taken a good number of years to get that out of her system to be honest. However her faith is strong.

I found her position abusive in a cognitive way and I understand other abuses in faith circles. However, abuse comes from an abuser regardless of what guise it's under but I suspect, as a Christian, that these people have influences in their life of demonic spirits.

I was abused I a secular foster home, in many ways by the so called caring people I was placed with. Not just in one home, but several. Each abusive in their way.

Now on my faith level I feel that God was always going to call me and the enemy of God was having a great time persecuting me. I believe that you cannot say that religion is abusive, just abusers and the abused. This happens on a global scale to individual families in all walks of life both secular and religious. As Christians we are told there are wolves in sheets clothing in our midst. And it's true, not just in the congregation of a church.

Regards

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Religion is a Santa story for adults.

a reply to: spirit_horse

Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003. One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did." Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." Mr Bush, who became a born-again Christian at 40, is one of the most overtly religious leaders to occupy the White House, a fact which brings him much support in middle America. Disturbing indeed. Thanks for your attention.

This above post by BuzzyWigs to spirit_horse and stated as factual.

And you bought it hook line and sinker with your comment

WOW! I didn't know that. That is a disturbing thought in itself. He claimed to be a Christian, but I wonder with his activities with Skull n Bones and the Bohemian Grove.

Let's read the additional material connected with this accusation'

Shaath later qualified his comments, saying that he and other world leaders at a Jordan summit two years ago "understood that he was illustrating [in his comments] his strong faith and his belief that this is what God wanted." Both the White House and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who was also present at the meeting, denies that Bush ever made such a statement.Text

en.wikipedia.org...

Now as you can read the entire source you can see that the Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who also was there, called Shaath a liar. It never happened. What did Shaath do? Well he backed off and said that he was simply illustrating what he thought would be the Bush agenda. Nothing but a liar feeding the sheep.

You now can understand exactly why people such as BuzzyWigs trolls these religious forums spewing his disinformation and spoons feeds those who know no different while most will not check facts.

So now spirit_horse you know that what BuzzyWigs and the Muslim liar, Shaath, had fed people is nothing but a lie. President George Bush did not utter any thing of that sort. This is one of the reasons these people troll these forums and spoon feed disinformation.

a reply to: Seede



YELLOW FLAG ON THE FIELD!

Sir, please don't continue with this sort of ad hominem attack if you don't want the mods to receive an "ALERT" about it.

You Don't Ever Need To Believe In God.... Nor Spend Your Precious Time With Accrediting Or Discrediting His Deeds And His Affection. Just Give A Courteous Thanks... And Take Up Your Works To Absolve Your Place In All That Is.
BTW: God Owes You Nothing! He Has Paid In Full For His Arrogance. Jesus.
He Owed You That... And He Has Paid.
The Truest Of All Theologies...IS... The Breath Of Life. aka "Usury!"
Pay Your Taxes... Earn Your Wages... And Make YOUR Living.

FYI: The Day God's Arrogance Reigned Supreme Was The Day He Asked Abraham For The Life Of Infant Isaac. God incurred debt....