"Why do non-Christians come here?" Here's why -

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Evidence is just hot air that people have been taught is valid and is fact.

Like, what comes out of the baseboard ducts near my floor? Pretty convincing to me (and my cats)!


(sorry, couldn't help myself).

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

So it's SANTA this and SANTA that. Everywhere I go, everyone bugs the crap out of me with their nonsense SANTA stuff.
So what do I do? I take myself off to a zone where there is freedom of opinion and thought and idea. Doors in all direction conveying all manner of subjects and material. I am free to choose and consider anything. I can search out those things that speak to my heart.
So, in my state of enlightenment and independence of mind and thought, which door do I CHOOSE to go through?
I CHOOSE to go through the door marked SANTA.

I'm sorry but your argument holds about as much water as a Californian reservoir.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Like, what comes out of the baseboard ducts near my floor? Pretty convincing to me (and my cats)!

There is no shortage of beliefs, and convincing someone of something, doesn't require magic.

Convincing someone, that the beliefs held by others that are contrary to their own, is where the real mystery and the challenge lies.

I am sure that the hot air that comes from your ducts, is quite satisfying for you and your cats, while there are others that may not feel it at all, and some that might find it unbearable. It makes none of your individual experiences less valid or real to the each of you.

Therein lies the rub,

a reply to: Lucius Driftwood

So what do I do? I take myself off to a zone where there is freedom of opinion and thought and idea. Doors in all direction conveying all manner of subjects and material. I am free to choose and consider anything. I can search out those things that speak to my heart.
So, in my state of enlightenment and independence of mind and thought, which door do I CHOOSE to go through?

Oh God please let it be the library....Oh God please let it be the library.....Oh God, please..the library.....

I CHOOSE to go through the door marked SANTA.

Well crap.

I'm sorry but your argument holds about as much water as a Californian reservoir.

Perhaps you should read past the OP - I have expanded my thoughts about the whole thing in the last 14 pages....with a little help from my friends.

I get by that way.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
I'd be more than happy to point you to all of the evidence that his entire presidency was "guided" by his faith in God....

Since when did politicians become a reliable source of truth?

Have I woken up in some kind of alternate reality where politicians are actually honest?

And just how much of what politicians say do you actually believe?

I mean good grief Charlie Brown, you can't possibly be that gullible...

I'm definitely not trying to belittle or attack you Buzzy.

I am not in the slightest bit interested in proving you wrong, I am just trying to understand why you believe what you do.

Our current 'Chameleon in Chief' also claims he's a Christian, do you believe him as well?

Surely you must know that politicians only say whatever suits their agenda at the time.

Has it ever occurred to you that what you 'think' Christianity is and what it really is are two entirely different things?

I would love to know and I bet may others would too.

Bohemian Grove comes to mind as well...

a reply to: Murgatroid

Just wondering here...

how is your president any less Christian then anyone else that accepts said label?

One might say he starts wars and is responsible for the death of many...

But doesn't Paul tell you one must submit to their rulers because they're put there by the hand of God (paraphrased)

a reply to: Akragon

Can you elaborate?

In other words, do think Christians are just labels?

What exactly are you getting at?

Concerning the president, he's merely a puppet.

Wars are started by those pulling the strings.

Which is why Disraeli said: "governments do not govern..."

a reply to: Murgatroid

Gladly...

In other words, do think Christians are just labels?

Correct... Christian is a label

The term meaning "Christ like" which no one is...

Some would say "a follower of" which is laughable...

IF one accepts said label, who are you or anyone else to disagree with his belief, when we are all "sinners"

What defines one Christian from the next?

well that depends on who you ask, doesn't it?

The fact is, IF one accepts a label... that is their label... and no one can take it away from them, nor does anyone have the authority to do so

originally posted by: Akragon
Correct... Christian is a label

Just because something is USED as a label by politicians doesn't mean it really IS one.

George Washington is a good example of a real Christian.

Some call him the 'Bullet Proof President' because he was shot at many times but survived unscathed...

Claiming or even believing he was a Christian would most likely not have helped him.

George Washington was a true Christian because of his actions, not because of his words.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

So far your efforts to sway my opinion are a big, fat FAILURE.

I have no purpose of swaying you or any other person to believe in any sort of ideology or religion. The reason I tune in to the two religious forums is to garner biblical knowledge from others. You and ones such as you have your own agenda and that is your right to do so. I do have certain contributors in these forums that I believe are very brilliant and have noted that they seem to want religious discussion which is why these two forums exist. I also have noted that some have left the forums and often wonder why they have left. Your thread may hold the answer to this question much to the delight of some.

Your thread was a question of why do disbelievers in religion tune into this forum and I think you have answered yourself. You have brought nothing to the table of religion, in my opinion, and only you know the reason why you and ones such as yourself spend so much time reading something that you do not believe in. But that is your prerogative and I would not want to deprive you of that exercise. After you have silenced your adversaries the day will come in which you will also be silenced. My opinions of course.

a reply to: Seede

I do have certain contributors in these forums that I believe are very brilliant and have noted that they seem to want religious discussion

Lots of us want religious discussion.

which is why these two forums exist.

Right. It's not about "CHRISTIAN" discussion. It's about religious discussion (as in: discussion about religion in general). Is there some part of that you don't understand?

I also have noted that some have left the forums and often wonder why they have left. Your thread may hold the answer to this question much to the delight of some.

And what would that answer be?
That some of us dared to speak up and say "your Christian religion is not special, or necessarily true!" ????

That some of us do that????

Well, you and all of your cohorts can go to any number of other forums if all you want to do is discuss the Bible and your own brand of "Christianity" to the specific exclusion of others.

In the meantime, if you post here, don't expect that non-believers in your particular dogma won't show up to "discuss."
It's out of love - to help.
Thanks.

a reply to: Murgatroid

I'm definitely not trying to belittle or attack you Buzzy.

Thanks. Much appreciated....so ----

I am not in the slightest bit interested in proving you wrong, I am just trying to understand why you believe what you do.

That is totally mutual. Thank you.

Our current 'Chameleon in Chief' also claims he's a Christian, do you believe him as well?

I don't care about his religious faith.

Surely you must know that politicians only say whatever suits their agenda at the time.

Of course I know that.

Has it ever occurred to you that what you 'think' Christianity is and what it really is are two entirely different things?

LOL!! Oh, Murg, this is classic. It "occurs" to me every day - that what the politicians paint as "Christian" is not at all what those who actually follow Jesus' statements believe: Clothing the naked, housing the poor, feeding the hungry, accepting the sinners, etc......

I would love to know and I bet may others would too.

I think that a huge segment of "American Christians" have totally discarded everything that "Jesus" said.
Not that it's their fault - they listen to their preachers, or try to interpret a silly anthology of myths...and think they 'know.' NONE of that preaching or scripture is necessary to understand the bottom line:

The Golden Rule.

Treat others the way you would like to be treated. Too many self-styled "Christians" have no concept whatsoever of what that actually means.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
]Right. It's not about "CHRISTIAN" discussion. It's about religious discussion (as in: discussion about religion in general).

Yes, that is the purpose of the forum.
But as I've pointed out before, the purpose of the individual thread is defined by the opening post. That is a general rule across ATS, not just this forum.
Since the forum is about religion in general, you can start a thread on any religion or religious view that you like (there's another forum for people who think religion is a conspiracy).
But if the topic of the thread has been defined by the opening post as "Does the Christian religion say X or Y?", then that is the topic of the thread. Any attempt to take the discussion outside that topic is, by definition, off-topic.

In that way, it is perfectly legitimate to confine a specific discussion within the parameters of one particular belief system. That is the significance of the word "Theology", which is part of the title of the forum.

a reply to: DISRAELI

But if the topic of the thread has been defined by the opening post as "Does the Christian religion say X or Y?", then that is the topic of the thread. Any attempt to take the discussion outside that topic is, by definition, off-topic.

In that way, it is perfectly legitimate to confine a specific discussion within the parameters of one particular belief system. That is the significance of the word "Theology", which is part of the title of the forum.

You, DISRAELI, have been off-topic since the beginning of this thread... defending your own typical behavior where you try to "gatekeep" your threads (feeling somehow confident that they are 'lectures' to a 'class', I guess?)

When the topic says "Does the Christian religion say X or Y?" it is open to the public, and some will say, "It says NEITHER X nor Y."

So - why do you persist in taking this thread off-topic and diverting focus to your own grievances about your own experiences making your own threads?

As much as you hate it - those are the rules. Any member can answer your question. For you to try to wrestle control is inappropriate. Many of us know "Christianity" inside out. And a good plenty have 'interpretations' that don't match your own. Deal with it.

This is mixed company. If you want to deliver sermons to naive, worshipping pupils who respond with eyes agape and hands raised, bated breath to hear more of your sage dogmatic beliefs, then that is what you want. You can find places to do it. This isn't one of them.

Sorry.

Now.

The TOPIC IS: "why do non-christians come here?" It is a question - and it has been (and is still being) answered. You don't have to like the answers; you don't have to want it to be like that; but it "is what it is" all the same.



Why don't you go to a Christians-Only forum instead of ATS? Should that be my next thread?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
You, DISRAELI, have been off-topic since the beginning of this thread...defending your own behavior where you try to "gatekeep" your threads.

I thought of myself as commenting on and amending the line taken by the opening post.
As a rough paraphrase, I saw "We can make any contribution we like to religious threads", and offered the amendment "only within certain limits". That's all I was doing in my previous post.
That is why I did not think I was going off-topic at the time. It was another poster who brought up my own threads, and that discussion may have dragged us away.

When the topic says "Does the Christian religion say X or Y?" it is open to the public, and some will say, "It says NEITHER X nor Y."

Indeed so, if you can find a third option, but even that statement confines them, rightly, to discussing what the Christian religion says, that being the topic of the hypothetical thread.

The irony works both ways, you know. You can only criticise my going off-topic if you accept the principle that people should not go off-topic. Do you?

You can find places to do it. This isn't one of them. Sorry.

What I'm doing on ATS is perfecly legitimate, and I'm not going away. Sorry.
See you tomorrow night, in Galatia.

As you think I have gone off-topic, I will set you a good example by withdrawing from the conversation again.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The irony works both ways, you know. You can only criticise my going off-topic if you accept the principle that people should not go off-topic. Do you?

I do accept that principle. But it's really up to the mods, not to me. That's why I've not commented on your posts in this thread so far.
I understand that you've been frustrated with people coming into threads to challenge your Bible-speak.

The thing is that not everyone believes in your Bible.
I have not stated that "so-and-so is not welcome to post here." You found a route to air your own grievances in this thread about why non-Christians 'disrupt' "Christian" threads.

Some members (myself, at least) feel it is our duty to point out that what it says in the Bible is not PROVEN FACT.

To some, it is no different than discussing Dune, or Harry Potter, or Star Wars, or The Odyssey or The Divine Comedy as if they are based on fact and not simply classical literature. Like a trivia thing. "Fan fiction" comes to mind, but I won't go that far. (Ever seen Pleasantville?)

Some of us enter "Bible" threads, because we are trying to help 'on-the-fence' readers juggle between Biblical interpretation only, and other schools of thought that are equally valid. To prevent them being sucked in to feeling put-upon by hell-fire, judgement, worthlessness, and shame that comes from the pulpit (in your case, ATS threads; your pulpit).


Others of us actually want to hear what is being said....pay attention (audit your class, if you will), and learn more about the various flavors of Christian "belief." Maybe wanting to hear different versions and interpretations than what you or others claim.

So - why did you enter THIS thread, DISRAELI?

It certainly isn't about you! It's about why SOME people (like the author of the OP) who speak up as challengers to ANY Bible interpretations (yours or anyone elses) - they step up and challenge the veracity of The Bible and the various interpretations about it. The book has been tweaked, edited, translated, re-edited, retranslated, and rewritten into dozens of generations of versions from whatever the originals were (which no one has anyway). Add to that every pastor and preacher (who is not simply parroting a script given to them) takes creative liberty to 'interpret' those same passages to mean what THEY'd like their listeners to hear.

I've always been a front-row, hand-in-the-air kind of student. I'm not any more likely to desist from my efforts than you are likely to desist from yours.....I visit and start threads as per my interest in psychology and the human condition....I ask questions. When I see flaws in arguments, I feel compelled to point them out. As for it being "religion", well, I'm simply fascinated by the entire concept as a human attribute.

Is there anything else you wanted to say?

We get it that you don't like people interrupting your Bible-lesson threads. You made that clear (and ran me and no doubt others off some time back - well-done you!) -- you are not up for challenges. I take my punches as they come, for the most part.....
and they do.

Now - it is page 15, and I want to take one more stab at explaining why I as a member of ATS (who did not write the OP piece, but only presented it) engage in these forums. People are damaged when they are told untruths by authority figures. Little kids especially....but ANYONE who is caught when they are vulnerable and need help. Like a mechanic taking advantage of a lady driver who doesn't know anything about cars.

I only hope that Christians keep in mind that what they say to vulnerable listeners should "do no harm." And that they might think with empathy about how a small child might interpret what they are hearing from those who are like "God" to them.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

As it stand's I actually agree with Disraeli on his point, I actually think you have the right to your view point as well as you need proven facts even though the Crucifixion of Jesus may be one of the most attested too event's in the ancient world, even from it's beginning the Christian faith has been beset by unbeliever's but there is a difference between unbelief/scepticism and plain anti Christian hate with an agenda no matter how it tries to dress itself up as something else.

There are indeed many anti Christian's whom come onto the Christian thread's and seek to attack the religion, it is not there duty it is a choice and often born out of spite or even deep seated psychological need to blame god for there own problems and injustices, most whom attack Christianity on this site come from Christian background's themselves and in there reverse psychological attack's on Christian threads like to expunge there attitude by posting there often venomous reproach to any Christian thread in ways which would not ever have been tolerated in a non Christian founded culture.

Is it not therefore surprising that the very religion they attack is also the source of there freedom to do so and indeed that is the intent of the religion's foundation as Christ call's his own unto him and other's will have there mind's confounded as to the religion.

But like I say most that attack Christianity have a psychological reason for doing so such as seeking to blame God or simply to hate Christianity itself despite often as they seek to pin the blame for there own personal or even all of society's woes on the one they think can not hit back.

A heck of a lot of them come from religious family's as well but the other reason is that it is in vogue in the west to attack religion in general and Christianity is the easiest for them to strike at in there hatred.

I certainly hope you and those that share your attitude toward the Christian faith find the truth buzzy, but I fear our truth's will remain separate reality's for some time to come.

a reply to: LABTECH767

But like I say most that attack Christianity have a psychological reason for doing so such as seeking to blame God or simply to hate Christianity itself despite often as they seek to pin the blame for there own personal or even all of society's woes on the one they think can not hit back.

Hmmm...

And, you know this...how?
Did you do a research study? Seems like you're interested in why they might feel the way they do, and you have ideas about it......but do you really know? Or are you just "projecting"?

Yeah.....there's a lot of that going around. Anyway, thanks for the post.

Don't speak for other people, or assume you know how they feel, unless they tell you themselves.

originally posted by: LABTECH767

There are indeed many anti Christian's whom come onto the Christian thread's and seek to attack the religion, it is not there duty it is a choice and often born out of spite or even deep seated psychological need to blame god for there own problems and injustices, most whom attack Christianity on this site come from Christian background's themselves and in there reverse psychological attack's on Christian threads like to expunge there attitude by posting there often venomous reproach to any Christian thread in ways which would not ever have been tolerated in a non Christian founded culture.

Is it not therefore surprising that the very religion they attack is also the source of there freedom to do so and indeed that is the intent of the religion's foundation as Christ call's his own unto him and other's will have there mind's confounded as to the religion.

Well here's a great example of why non-christians might comment on a christian thread.....

Spouting such utter nonsense will get you called out regardless of the thread title/theme, and those with superstitious/supernatural/paranormal tendencies just so happen to get get called out quite often...

a reply to: LABTECH767

even though the Crucifixion of Jesus may be one of the most attested too event's in the ancient world

I'm not sure you know what "attested to" means.

There are very few documents talking about "Jesus", and those that exist have been put under scrutiny to a point of debunking many of them. NONE of them were written within the lifetime of Jesus. We know this.


I think when you say "attested to", you are meaning number "published" and how often "written about" ------- Yep! It's a widespread piece of literature, no doubt about that!!! And LOTS of people write things ABOUT it....tons of them (myself included). You see, it's an endlessly fascinating (though sometimes exhausting) topic to explore. Religion.....what is it all about??????

But actually, "attested to" means a journalistic reporting of, or an eyewitness account (like a deposition). And of those, there are......very, very few (if any).