FOX News: Transgender girl drops class after 200 protest for and against her.

I have spent three days reading this thread and the others linked by Jadestar. Thanks so much Jade and EKron for patiently replying time and again in the face of harsh insults, to help the rest of us better understand your incredibly difficult journeys.
I like to work at being less judgemental and more accepting etc and have come across several issues I hope others can help me to understand.

1. How has this bathroom/locker room issue been dealt with in the past in regard to gays and the gay rights angle/movement? Was there suggestions for them to have their own toilets? Or is it only the transgenders that these discussions have come up for because many percieve them all to be "men in five oclock shadow" etc? Because they "may" be more noticable?

2. Where I live we don't have change rooms in our schools, at least in the schools I have been to. The public swimming pool change areas have large open spaces to change in, with benches, but also rows of separate cubicles with showers (containing small change areas) along one wall and separate toilet cubicles along the other.
Is this not possible in schools there? If not, why not? Just trying to imagine this locker room setting. Is there not walls/any privacy whilst showering? In this day and age? I think every student should have this privacy?

3. As other have said there must be some compromise, some have suggested unisex toilets.. Imo we already have this really in the form of disabled toilets. And please I mean no offence by this and hope it isnt taken the wrong way... Not just disabled people use these toilets.
Many others end up using them too..elderly people that might need a bit of extra space, mums/dads with prams and multiple children that cant be left unsupervised, any caregiver with of a person of the opposite gender! As someone else mentioned, many people will just choose the shortest que etc.
Where I live most of the shopping centers etc have "parents rooms" now, changed from "mothers rooms".
If these changes can be made for disabled people, breastfeeding moms and nappy changing dads then surely we can modify the disabled toilets idea (and I note : always for "disabled" not "female or male" specific) into general bathroom facilities for anyone that needs it.

4. I understand this OP is about school, but in regard to other toilets and people not being comfortable with a gay or transgender etc in the cubicle next to them, we simply do not get this control in many cases, and the reality is IMO it cant be expected.
We cant do anything about being uncomfortable with an elderly person with bowel problems in the toilet next to you, or a drunk mountain of a man who gets the rent a loo next to you in the line of 50 at an event, or many other undesirable toilet situations one may find themself in...

originally posted by: Deaf Alien

But here we are talking about teenagers who are transmen transitioning and the girls who KNOW them personally.

Yes, it baffles me that they're all in an uproar over a physical appendage on someone that has no sexual interest in their daughters.

They should be in an uproar over Lesbians using the same locker room. They actually are sexually interested in their precious daughters.

People are so conditioned - - that they don't even realize how absurd it is to fear Lila.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: Annee

It's called contrasting the situation. Look up the word "contrast." People were arguing a bathroom for penises and a bathroom for vaginas. I was trying to demonstrate the ridiculous flaw in that line of thinking and you people with your poor grasp of language led it to this damn bickering and now I'm getting pissed because you're NOT THINKING.

If more then one person is misunderstanding your point - - - we are not the issue.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: thov420

In this case, lots of people were uncomfortable and the only solution is a compromise.

People here in this thread seem to ignore Annee's and my solution.

And we still don't know if there are private stalls in the girls locker room.

BTW - - I am for Full Discretion. If Lila is flaunting her "parts" - - that is rude, inconsiderate, and an issue. She needs immediate counseling.

She said she had to use a Faculty bathroom. What we don't know is where that bathroom is.

When "they" say she was offered a private facility - - - what does that mean exactly?

Here's another one:

Federal Judge Denies Trans Student the Right to Use Male Restroom

The battle for trans-inclusive K-12 education heats up after a federal judge denies a high school student's request to use the boy's restroom.

In a ruling by a federal judge on Friday that is a setback for transgender students' civil rights in K-12 schools, a trans high-schooler in Virginia won't be allowed to use the boys bathroom that he'd already been using for months.

Grimm had used the boy’s bathroom during the 10th grade for several months with the permission of the principal of Gloucester County High School and without incident from his peers. But the Gloucester County School Board nonetheless created a policy that denied Grimm gender-appropriate restroom access. The school board enacted the policy based on select parents’ concerns about privacy, even though Grimm’s peers expressed no such complaints, said Grimm’s father.

www.advocate.com...

originally posted by: Annee

Isn't it interesting - - - we never hear horror stories of "I was tricked" from a woman who had a one night stand with a transgender f/m.

We as you,
In "group" I have personally have heard a few born straight women being duped by f2m.
It terrified them very much. One recounting what happened tried slicing her wrist because she
hated knowing that she had been raped by what she thought was a guy.

You might not have heard about it on television , read it in the paper or read about on the net. Because not everyone tells what happens to them to media outlets or shouts it to the world. Some seek help and go to a group. Where What Happens in group stays in group.

originally posted by: EvilBat

originally posted by: Annee

Isn't it interesting - - - we never hear horror stories of "I was tricked" from a woman who had a one night stand with a transgender f/m.

We as you,
In "group" I have personally have heard a few born straight women being duped by f2m.
It terrified them very much. One recounting what happened tried slicing her wrist because she
hated knowing that she had been raped by what she thought was a guy.

You might not have heard about it on television , read it in the paper or read about on the net. Because not everyone tells what happens to them to media outlets or shouts it to the world. Some seek help and go to a group. Where What Happens in group stays in group.

Thank you for joining conversation.

Always good to have those with personal experience.

I was not saying it does not happen. Only that it isn't blown up in the media.

It is men, mostly, that have to protect their ego.

a reply to: Annee

It is men, mostly, that have to protect their ego.

That's a pretty blanket statement. I would say some people just prefer to 'protect their ego' by not broadcasting it to the world.

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Annee

It is men, mostly, that have to protect their ego.

That's a pretty blanket statement. I would say some people just prefer to 'protect their ego' by not broadcasting it to the world.

Then we have opposing opinions.

originally posted by: thov420
At the same time, a majority of the vitriol generally seems to be coming from the people on Lila's "side". Words like ignorant, clueless, backwards, etc only cause tension and division.

I would say that much of that was a reaction to some very hateful, hurtful and yes ignorant things which were said (and mod deleted by the way) by the side opposed to her. You missed the worst of it. There was also an ATS member in support of Lila who tends to make a mess of these threads who caused it to go in a bad direction very early but that's the past. Level heads seem to be prevailing even if not everyone agrees, the conversation at least is civil.

Someone also mentioned possible violence in the boys locker room. What about possible violence in the girls'? Especially if the school forces the rest of the girls to share their locker room with Lila, who some of them aren't comfortable with. Girls are at least as mean as boys are, generally more emotional vs physical, but violence is violence.

Yes, you are very correct that girls can and often are a lot meaner than boys. I do know that first hand. While boys might shout the occasional slur and run off laughing, some girls would often launch prolonged hurtful smear campaigns and I've talked about one in another thread. Both of which stopped when I met my current boyfriend btw.

There is also a difference in the conditions under which boys and girls threaten physical violence. Boys sometimes will do it to assert their "manhood" and a trans girl just by existing may threaten some boys idea of their manhood. So a trans girl need do nothing other than exist to be the target of this type of threat of physical violence by boys.

But girls threaten physical violence only under special circumstances for different reasons. The only physical threat of violence I received in high school was from a girl who told me not to look at or talk with her boyfriend. Which of course I didn't. I had a choice of whether I would be the target of physical violence by her. I opted not be.

However there is one more thing you also may be overlooking.

If a trans girl has been on hormones for awhile she has the same muscle mass and body development as other girls. This has a big effect on her ability to defend herself against boys.

When I started high school I was like all of 5 foot, 5 inches tall and like 95-100 pounds. I'm small framed too. Imagine who I'd have a better chance of defending myself against, some 6 foot tall 180 pound linebacker in the boys room or another girl?

Now of course everyone is different but as a general rule, trans girls do not belong in boys facilities for that (and other) reason.

And again, more than one court has ruled in favor of trans girls using the girls room on those as well as psychological development grounds (most child development specialists and psychologists advising school districts advise them to allow transgender students use the facility of the gender they are living as outlined in the policies both I and Ekron linked).

This is why the compromise that was offered to Lila probably would not stand up in court. In fact in the Colorado case that compromise was deemed to be damaging to the child's social development.

Again I am not sure that I believe Lila is truly a trans girl but whether she is or isn't her school needs to set out some clear policy regarding transgender students because they eventually they will face this issue again. The California Safe Schools Coalition document I linked a few pages back should serve a guide which will both protect the transgender student and the school district from legal action.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Deaf Alien

But here we are talking about teenagers who are transmen transitioning and the girls who KNOW them personally.

Yes, it baffles me that they're all in an uproar over a physical appendage on someone that has no sexual interest in their daughters.

They should be in an uproar over Lesbians using the same locker room. They actually are sexually interested in their precious daughters.

People are so conditioned - - that they don't even realize how absurd it is to fear Lila.

I blame Hollywood and the media.

originally posted by: Dezzie
I have spent three days reading this thread and the others linked by Jadestar. Thanks so much Jade and EKron for patiently replying time and again in the face of harsh insults, to help the rest of us better understand your incredibly difficult journeys.

Thank you.

That's why both of us decided to "come out" to ATS. To help educate around this issue.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: thov420

In this case, lots of people were uncomfortable and the only solution is a compromise.

People here in this thread seem to ignore Annee's and my solution.

And we still don't know if there are private stalls in the girls locker room.

BTW - - I am for Full Discretion. If Lila is flaunting her "parts" - - that is rude, inconsiderate, and an issue. She needs immediate counseling.

She said she had to use a Faculty bathroom. What we don't know is where that bathroom is.

When "they" say she was offered a private facility - - - what does that mean exactly?

Exactly. I agree 100 percent. We don't know much about the compromise which was given and I would say Lila is in need of counseling if she is not already receiving it. I kinda doubt she is.

originally posted by: Annee
Here's another one:

Federal Judge Denies Trans Student the Right to Use Male Restroom

The battle for trans-inclusive K-12 education heats up after a federal judge denies a high school student's request to use the boy's restroom.

In a ruling by a federal judge on Friday that is a setback for transgender students' civil rights in K-12 schools, a trans high-schooler in Virginia won't be allowed to use the boys bathroom that he'd already been using for months.

Grimm had used the boy’s bathroom during the 10th grade for several months with the permission of the principal of Gloucester County High School and without incident from his peers. But the Gloucester County School Board nonetheless created a policy that denied Grimm gender-appropriate restroom access. The school board enacted the policy based on select parents’ concerns about privacy, even though Grimm’s peers expressed no such complaints, said Grimm’s father.

www.advocate.com...

Like you and I said, it's the parents, not the kids who have the biggest problem in a lot of these cases. The parents drive a lot of this outrage and manipulate their children as proxies.

The two parents of that girl who challenged my school really manipulated her. She had no problem with me using the girl's room but her parents kept asking her if she "felt weird having a boy in the girl's room" and ignorant stuff like that until she agreed with them and suddenly it was an issue requiring my parents to take time out of their work to come to the school and help educate them.

originally posted by: EvilBat
In "group" I have personally have heard a few born straight women being duped by f2m.
It terrified them very much. One recounting what happened tried slicing her wrist because she
hated knowing that she had been raped by what she thought was a guy.

Not trying to be rude or argumentative, just posing a question to discuss. Would this woman that was "duped" and then raped by what she thought was a guy been somehow less traumatized by being raped by a guy that was born male? Is rape somehow worse by a FtM than it would have been with a natal male?

Rape is traumatizing, dehumanizing violence no matter who it comes from.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: Annee

It's called contrasting the situation. Look up the word "contrast." People were arguing a bathroom for penises and a bathroom for vaginas. I was trying to demonstrate the ridiculous flaw in that line of thinking and you people with your poor grasp of language led it to this damn bickering and now I'm getting pissed because you're NOT THINKING.

If more then one person is misunderstanding your point - - - we are not the issue.

Only two people misunderstood it; you and deaf alien. Everyone else appears to have grasped what I was stating, so the issue is on your end, not mine.

originally posted by: Kojiro

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: Annee

It's called contrasting the situation. Look up the word "contrast." People were arguing a bathroom for penises and a bathroom for vaginas. I was trying to demonstrate the ridiculous flaw in that line of thinking and you people with your poor grasp of language led it to this damn bickering and now I'm getting pissed because you're NOT THINKING.

If more then one person is misunderstanding your point - - - we are not the issue.

Only two people misunderstood it; you and deaf alien. Everyone else appears to have grasped what I was stating, so the issue is on your end, not mine.

Kojiro, it is in the past though. Everyone now understands what you are trying to say. You and Annee are pretty much in agreement on the topic of the original post which of course is what we should be discussing, not each other. Just saying' *hug*

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Reallyfolks

But see, she is uncomfortable in the boy's locker room because of bullying and violence against her. The other girls are uncomfortable just because there's a penis in the room. There's a bit of a difference in the reason for the discomfort. One is real and palpable (violence), the other is superficial.

If the girls are worried that the transgender girl might be attracted to them, then they would have to be uncomfortable with any lesbian girls in the locker room too, but I haven't heard any outrage about lesbians.

In my high school would have kicked the crap out of HIM, end of story.

a reply to: Merlynn

And that is acceptable to you?.