Manhunt underway at Fox Lake Illinois

a reply to: VegHead

The Trib is running an updated article with a statement from the coroner saying the reports of GSW to the back of his neck are inaccurate. He still won't specify, but says the officer "died of a single gunshot wound to the torso." He won't expand beyond that.

He can't issue a cause of death till the ballistics come back on the round and gun. Right now they aren't even saying if the officer's gun was fired, much less whether it was fired at the officer or not.

I'd be curious to know what lab is running all the ballistics on this.

a reply to: Shamrock6

I'm with you on the curiosity.
Have I watched too many cop movies?
How long does it really take to get a ballistics report done? Isn't it just a matter of firing the weapon, collecting the results and comparing the "known" to the "unknown" object under a scope?
Was there ever a confirmation on the report we heard initially that the cop's gear was stolen? Obviously the report that his gun was stolen was false since they apparently have the gun to test.
Was the coroner saying that he didn't have the ballistics report because it hadn't been done or because the police hadn't provided it to him?
Suicide or homicide should be a fairly easy decision once the ballistics test is reported. If the gun was fired once, leaving reside on the hands and the bullet that killed him matches his gun....the only question remaining would be whose fingerprints are on the gun.
I know we have to wait for the facts to come out but this kind of back and forth smacks of inter-agency fighting.

a reply to: diggindirt

Sadly, it's starting to appear that the Fox Lake police are looking for an "out". Today, they are blaming the Coroner for releasing information that could prevent them from ever solving this case.

""Doctor Rudd, releasing information which is sensitive to this investigation, puts the entire case at risk," Filenko said in a written statement. " All of the progress made since this tragic incident is potentially in jeopardy.""

Source: www.cnn.com...

cwm

The first high profile report of a possible suicide that I heard of came from Fox News over a week ago although it didn't seem credible at that time. The commentator was reporting about the Massachusetts who was shot at and his cruiser caught fire. Within a day or two they determined that he had done it himself trying to get attention and increase the propaganda about police being shot at. the reporter went on to speculate that the same thing might have happened in Fox Lake although unless he had additional information this seem highly unlikely.

The coroners report declining to rule out suicide and the timing among other things might imply a growing possibility that is what happened; however it is unlikely that he would do this with a single gunshot wound to the torso, since this is unlikely to cause immediate death and hew would probably know it. But it seems to raise new questions that don't make sense.

I think it has already been pointed out that they haven't found any corroboration of the people he was supposedly chasing or that they even exist. And it is hard to imagine how they managed to shoot him in the torso perhaps under his bullet proof vest.

This is a virtual invitation to conspiracy theorists; and there seems to be a lot of that from the traditional media now. the truth according to the establishment is now becoming even more absurd than many conspiracy theories.

Regardless of what happened or why this is being used as part of an effort to Misrepresent and Stereotype Black Lives Matter while ignoring solutions and other protests against police shootings which is much more common than police being shot.

There are apparently over a thousand people killed a year by police and 2013 had the fewest police killed in over sixty years on a per capita basis you have to go back to the civil war to come close but I think it was even lower than that. the supposedly dramatic increase in 2014 selectively compared the rate with 2013 without mentioning it was record breaking low year. Now it seems to be going back down possible even lower.

A lot of this is clearly propaganda!

a reply to: zacherystaylor

Just going to point out that while the coroner hasn't ruled out suicide, they also haven't ruled out homicide.

I don't know why that's being seized on as some form of evidence of anything. It was an unnatural death and it was caused by gunfire. Ergo, any cause of death attributable to gunfire is on the table until all the information is put together.

It's utterly commonplace.

Whoa.

Things just took (yet another) unexpected turn.

What do you all make of this? A retired former chicago cop living in Oak Lawn (a sw suburb - not near fox lake) was just arrested for threatening investigators to rule this a suicide.

Whaaaaaaaat????
www.chicagotribune.com...

From article:
Former Chicago police Officer Joseph Battaglia of southwest suburban Oak Lawn was charged Sunday with two counts of disorderly conduct for threatening to harm two key officials investigating the death of Fox Lake police officer Lt. Charles Joseph Gliniewicz, officials said.

The 54-year-old Battaglia, who is being held in the Lake County Jail after being assigned a $100,000 bond, is accused of calling Lake County Coroner Thomas Rudd's office Friday and threatening Rudd and George Filenko, who heads the Lake County Major Crimes Task Force, officials said.

...
Battaglia allegedly threatened to harm Rudd and Filenko unless they declare Gliniewicz's death a suicide.

According to a press release Sunday morning from the Lake County Sheriff's Office, someone called the coroner's office at 2 p.m. Friday, blocking the phone number so caller identification would not work. The caller said he was a "retired police officer" and made threats against "all of the Task Force members" and others investigating the Gliniewicz death unless that death was declared a suicide.

After investigating, the Lake County sheriff's office determined that the call came from Battaglia, who they said is a retired Chicago police officer who lives in the 5600 block of West 103rd Street in Oak Lawn. He was arrested at his home.
---

a reply to: VegHead

Saw this too...

How bizzare this case has gotten!!

So either this ex Chicago cop is part of the crew that killed this cop and felt comfortable trying to threaten the investigators into dismissing this as a suicide...or he is off his rocker..

And the investigators are saying they cant make a determination until the coroner gives them more info...and the coroner is saying he cant rule suicide or homicide until the investigators give him more data..

Stalemate? WTF????

I hope the bickering agencies got together over the weekend and got this sorted out.
It is getting more weird by the day.

originally posted by: VegHead
Whoa.



From article:
Former Chicago police Officer Joseph Battaglia of southwest suburban Oak Lawn was charged Sunday with two counts of disorderly conduct for threatening to harm two key officials investigating the death of Fox Lake police officer Lt. Charles Joseph Gliniewicz, officials said.

Also...Here in Chicago the Battaglia family is known for "Sam" Salvatore Joseph Battaglia..Former head of the Chicago Outfit/Mob.
en.wikipedia.org...

I'd be interested to know if this Joseph Battaglia is related and how. It wasn't unusual for second and third generation mobsters children and grand-children to become cops in Chicago and it's possible he was running some kind of racket.

What was his interest in this where he felt comfortable calling and threatening investigators anonymously and demanding they declare it a suicide and shut down the investigation??

hmmmm...

Officer Joseph Battaglia was suspended for more than 15 months after
he was found guilty of telling Trotter's to Go restaurant employees in
2004 that he had confiscated weed and asked if they wanted some.

groups.google.com...#!topic/alt.true-crime/7EDCdudBAqk

chicagoist.com...

originally posted by: diggindirt
I hope the bickering agencies got together over the weekend and got this sorted out.
It is getting more weird by the day.

Yes. I can only hope the FBI is all over it, cuz something is way off here whatever the circumstances. None of it is normal.

It is like there is an unknown force at work. What do the local investigators know that the rest of us don't?

Everything here screams cover-up.

First...the officers gun was "taken" or "missing"...then it was found near him? If suicide remains a possibility, then it was "found" near enough to him to make that possible? If so, why did first responders report the gun missing and the suspects as armed and dangerous? Was the gun planted?

Why did the FBI and DHS immediately swoop in?

What was the full extent of the corruption investigation into the Chief of Police?

Why is the Coroner fighting with the investigators and felt compelled to release information to the press against policy?

Almost as if he was trying to scuttle a cover-up or perceived pressure from the investigators to determine it one way or another...the coroner doesn't trust his local investigators???

Why are the local investigators saying they need a determination from the coroner before declaring this a homicide or suicide...and the coroner saying he needs the same from investigators?

When was the gun found? Where? How was the officer shot? Was his radio (originally declared missing) with him or in the car? Otherwise...could he have called in that he was shot?

What DNA was found? They swabbed 50 people saying they had foreign DNA at the scene. Where was it found?

Have they swabbed this Ex Cop Battaglia yet?

Any prints on the gun apart from the officer's? How about his radio? If he was shot in the torso, he might have had time to call in before he died? Though the coroner did say "devastating wound to the torso"...right? Also..was he wearing a vest? Also if you are going to kill yourself...why choose a potentially unsuccessful and painful shot to the torso?? vs. head? With torso, you could cripple yourself and live...makes no sense.

And the whole manhunt seemed a ruse with the 3 suspects and video evidence and then the suspects being unrelated with solid alibies!

Hell...they are looking at 10-20 minutes of traffic video from multiple lights (they have every intersection in and out of that area)that were preserved by the DOT. They need to look closely at every vehicle and start running plates.

WTF ..it is one thing to think suicide, but for an ex-cop to risk everything and start threatening other cops and the coroner...that wasn't just an opinion..he had some serious interest in the determination being suicide to move from speculation to risking his pension and threatening investigators...which apparently he thought could be a productive strategy? Why? Is Fox Lake PD known as corruptible?

a reply to: Shamrock6

I didn't mean to imply that it was strong evidence of anything but the coverage of this is making less sense all the time and it is a virtual invitation to conspiracy theorists. With the arrest of Joseph Battaglia it is even more suspicious.

For now your guess is as good as mine but when the investigation is over assuming they expose the truth my best guess is that it won't be heroic for police as the propaganda implies.

Well, the sound of crickets is loud on this. What on earth would take so long to get ballistics tests done?
At first I was ready to blame the journalists for poor reporting in the midst of the madness that the "manhunt" became but now it appears that the two agencies (coroner's office and police) are knocking horns. The only thing I can come up with is inter-agency politics.

ETA: Just searched and found this just posted:
chicago.suntimes.com...

Investigators looking into the death of a Fox Lake Police officer met with the pathologist who performed his autopsy without the knowledge of the Lake County coroner, underscoring the strained relationship between the police and the coroner in the case, the Chicago Sun-Times has learned.
The meeting concerning slain officer Charles Joseph Gliniewicz was held last week, at 10 a.m. Wednesday, at the Round Lake Police Department, where Lake County Major Crimes Task Force Cmdr. George Filenko is police chief.
Pathologist Manny Montez confirmed that he attended the meeting, along with Filenko, other members of the task force and members of the FBI. Representatives of the Lake County state’s attorney’s office also attended.
“They called me and told me to be present, so I showed up,” Montez said. “We went over my findings. They had copies of my sketches because I haven’t finalized my [autopsy] report yet.”
Lake County Coroner Thomas A. Rudd said he was “totally confused” when he learned about the meeting.
“I was not invited to the meeting and I have just found out that the meeting occurred,” Rudd said. Montez is a contracted employee of the coroner and reports his findings to Rudd, who makes the final determination on the cause of death.

Looks like someone needs to step in and knock some hard heads together!

9.15.2015

The latest...
"Sources tell Fox News two shell casings were found about 100 feet apart from each other near Gliniewicz’s body, which was discovered face down. His hand was in a gun position, the firearm “dropped at his body.”

One bullet hit Gliniewicz in his bulletproof vest. The second and fatal shot struck him underneath his vest, fired in a downward trajectory, near the heart. There was no sign of a struggle or defensive wounds—especially one to save his own life."

Source: www.foxnews.com...

1. It's hard to believe that anyone would keep his nerve after shooting himself in the chest/vest, say "oops!", and then put the gun above their vest, and fire again!

2. RE: "His hand was in a gun position.." What's a "gun position"??

3. Was there an open-casket funeral? I'm hoping that it wasn't suicide, or murder... That officer Gliniewiecz was recruited for some top secret operation by the government.

a reply to: carewemust
I'm trying to imagine what his family must be going through with all this confusion in the air...

Is there still a "manhunt" being conducted? I don't quite see how you could look for someone without a description.
Does the entire investigation hinge on the oft-mentioned DNA?
I was surprised to see that a contractor rather than the coroner had done the autopsy. A search turned up this article:
murderpedia.org...

When questioned by DeLuca during the trial, Montez testified he was not board-certified in pathology, saying he hadn’t taken the required exam. Medical records subpoenaed after the trial indicate he failed a board exam in anatomic pathology in 2001 and hadn’t taken an exam for forensic pathology, defense attorneys said.

This leaves me wondering if he has since completed his education and examinations.

This is getting stranger as reported previously in this string Joseph Battaglia, an ex-Chicago cop, was accused of threatening coroner’s officeJoseph Battaglia, ex-Chicago cop, accused of threatening coroner’s office unless they declare it a suicide. Now there are numerous stories including Report: Illinois Police Investigating if Officer Thought to Be Killed Actually Committed Suicide and Investigators May Be at Odds in Fox Lake Case saying just that. Another story, Son of Illinois cop who died on duty says dad didn't commit suicide refutes this but none of them are mentioning the story about Battaglia.

That is a huge omission. The only arrest in relation to the case is an ex-cop and the media is starting to act as if it hadn't happened after a couple report of it.

This is a virtual invitation for conspiracy theorists, and they have to know it.

a reply to: zacherystaylor

Just for validation....All the Chicago Cops are talking about it and think it is..and I quote.."A Cluster****" they are questioning nearly everything we are..

www.chicagotribune.com...

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: zacherystaylor

Just for validation....All the Chicago Cops are talking about it and think it is..and I quote.."A Cluster****" they are questioning nearly everything we are..

www.chicagotribune.com...

It's really difficult to get to that story due to all the crap the Chicago Tribune throws at your browser. But from what I was able to Google, it seems that the investigation of officer Gliniewicz's death is turning into a circus of finger pointing, incompetence, denials, and increasingly...resignation.

As I pointed out in the other thread on this subject, even the basics of checking for gunpowder residue on the officer's hands, and analyzing DNA evidence found at the scene has not been done. This entire saga is surreal.
cwm

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: zacherystaylor

Just for validation....All the Chicago Cops are talking about it and think it is..and I quote.."A Cluster****" they are questioning nearly everything we are..

www.chicagotribune.com...

It's really difficult to get to that story due to all the crap the Chicago Tribune throws at your browser.

As that happened, a retired Chicago police lieutenant with two sons now on the job talked to me about the feelings among police, about the shootings and anti-police protests and the sense that they were all under siege.

But a couple of days later, he called me again, saying simply, "I've got a feeling there's something wrong with this one."

....

There have been turf battles between the Lake County coroner and the Lake County Major Crime Task Force investigating Gliniewicz's death as well and an angry news release issued by police, closed-door meetings excluding the coroner, secrecy and denials.

"Let me put it like this … tension?" Lake County Coroner Thomas Rudd told us Wednesday. "What tension? You have to be able to talk to people to have tension, and there's no conversation between me and (task force commander) George Filenko.

Just some excerpts from the article


copy-paste link into your browser.....the story will show that way....just take out the space after "h" in "h ttp"

h ttp://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/kass/ct-john-kass-fox-lake-met-0917-20150916-column.html

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: zacherystaylor

Just for validation....All the Chicago Cops are talking about it and think it is..and I quote.."A Cluster****" they are questioning nearly everything we are..

www.chicagotribune.com...

As I pointed out in the other thread on this subject, even the basics of checking for gunpowder residue on the officer's hands, and analyzing DNA evidence found at the scene has not been done. This entire saga is surreal.
cwm

Here is my bottom line...

In a normal investigation..more so in a cops murder...the Premise is to objectively chase down all evidence and come to a conclusion.

In this case there seems the opposite...Conclusions (suicide or murder) are competing amongst the investigators...and evidence is being withheld, scuttled, delayed, suppressed to fit.

That is no small thing and frankly involves severe professional and legal risks to those involved in the investigation...what force behind the scenes would motivate folks to take that risk? Investigators seem to be willing to take the gamble that they can hide behind a claim of incompetence and quietly retire with pensions once the debacle is over, but still that is a gamble...whatever the outcome, careers have already been impacted. I don't understand...when every cop in Chicagoland ...veteran homicide detectives are looking at this and saying it is effed-up...then you know the investigative team knows the same and don't seem interested in reconciling it. There is something we definitely don't know.

From what we do know, I don't think Suicide is likely.

If so..then he had a well-thought and complicated plan, which speaks to intelligence.

He would have shot himself once in the vest...A big risk..then shot himself once from the neckline down through the torso?

There was a strong probability that he would have crippled himself or instantly thrown himself into shock or rendered himself unconscious and lived and woken up in the hospital. More so since he called for back-up right before ensuring that he would be found near immediatley. Unless he had intimate knowledge of anatomy and sufficient medical knowledge and geometrical/physics mindset to precisely align the gun so the bullets path from that downward angle above the vest would instantly destroy his heart or vital organs...it just doesn't make sense. Huge risk of living and having to answer questions and a thousand other ways he could have staged his own death without those huge risks.

My best guess is that he got shot in the vest while chasing the suspect(s)..one of them turned and fired.

He either fell forward or dived for cover and went for his gun.

The second shot was fired as he began to rise to level his gun to return fire. The shot took the horizontal trajectory, likely aimed at his head, entering at the shoulder or neck above his vest and struck his heart or other critical vascular system.

The suspect approached and pulled or kicked his gun from his hand and tossed nearby, confirmed he was dead, then fled.

Note that an untrained suspect would just to continue to flee. It is police and military that are trained to immediately disarm and do a "check" after someone goes down.

Not suicide from what we know...And the shooter was a good shot and not rattled during the exchange. Also speaks to someone that planned for a rapid and inconspicuous exit. Car nearby. Maybe driver waiting and could even have left in the trunk.



This case is messed up.

And here is some of what the CORONER says he needs from the investigators in order to make a determination of suicide vs. homicide, but has not gotten..Note that investigators have pressured him to make a determination WITHOUT this evidence.

“We need the DNA on the gun,
we need the fingerprints on the gun,
we need the DNA that they found, that they claim is not related to the officer,” Rudd said.
“We need the gunshot residue from the officer’s clothing and anything else.”

www.nbcchicago.com...