Donald Trump’s immigration tab: $166 billion

a reply to: phishfriar47

Left me wanting to know more as well. I don't think we ever get the WHOLE picture in one place about this issue. Or the real numbers.

And again, Charlie has some very valid points on that.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: intrptr

At the same time, we have an army that does all kinds of duty in the desert environments. They need to train in those environments ...

Gosh ... that southern border looks an awful lot like a big desert environment to me.

And let's not kid ourselves that the cartels are playing out in the sand with BB guns and paintball.

Half the southern US is desert. Aren't these "drills" focused around small towns, in the desert?

So is the desert or small town America the object? Maybe both since they are synonymous.

a reply to: phishfriar47

How do you suppose the government collects taxes on 'Cash' paychecks when there is no paper trail and no way for verification, apparently you dont live in the real world, because even as legal American citizen I can find multiple ways to have income without paying any taxes if I so choose.

That has become increasingly rare. It is very easy to obtain a SS card and Permanent Resident Card so the illegals have many more options when it comes to employment. Cash under the table is the "old" way of doing things. Now it's much easier to use the existing system and look legitimate. Therefore, those people do pay taxes.

what is to stop the Illegal from claiming taxes in such a way to keep their money up front with the promise to pay it at return time.

With a SS card and Perm Res card you have to have up to date addresses. So what stops them is an IRS audit and a visit from immigration.

and also how Donald knows he has the leverage to build that wall by way of Mexico directly being involved. Saying I am out of touch when I have clearly explained myself and replied to every comment shows I know enough to talk about this topic

Build the wall? Ya, out of touch. That's not only not reasonable it's absurd.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: introvert

Considering that they shouldn't be here to make that money in the first place ...

So you don't care about freedom unless it's used by people you deem worthy?

a reply to: ketsuko

You started by derailing my topic with your Obama ACA crap. Then you got butthurt because you got deleted.

Unlike you, I don't hang with a posse. I don't need backup. I have my own mind.

Now get out of my thread or just don't address me again.

Hit me mods. I don't #ing give a #. ATS has an issue. And I'm not playing.

Maybe I missed something.

Has Trump given any indication that he intends to carry out a forced deportation plan as described in the OP?

Just checked - he has not, and that means the article in the OP is not based in reality.
That never stopped anyone on ATS, though.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

People are deducing what it will take to deport 11 million plus people and concluding it will take a small army to do that and it will cost a hell of a lot of money

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
Maybe I missed something.

Has Trump given any indication that he intends to carry out a forced deportation plan as described in the OP?

Just checked - he has not, and that means the article in the OP is not based in reality.
That never stopped anyone on ATS, though.

You Missed Something

As already posted above.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
www.webpages.uidaho.edu...

This little PDF highlights a few key things.

But I don't vouch for it 100% as a source, but it cites its own sources at the bottom section of the PDF.
If ignore the leftist rhetoric and focus on the stats to avoid any partisan bickering.

It speaks of an Annual loss of over $1trillion if deportation of all illegals is implemented...

Now given that it's from 2010, those numbers have most likely risen with the rise of illegals.
I'm not citing this as the be all and end all, I'd still like to know the overall cons so I can balance my own argument.

Couple of things wrong with that slide show.

First and foremost on slide #2, there are some gross assumptions that dont add up:

Point 2 They fulfill jobs that americans wont (See my equation on why this is so, Joe isnt going to work for $7 out of his $10 per hour when Jose keeps his whole $10)
Point 3 They decrease the cost of products for Americans (This is true, but it also deflates the American workers wages by way of taxation)
Point 4 They create jobs for americans (That doesnt even seem plausible if they took 10-12 million jobs to begin with)
Point 5 They bring rich cultural diversity to america (This is true, but they also bring in drugs, guns, gangs, and impoverished living conditions, they can keep that part of their culture for all I am concerned)

Slide #3 nailed it by point 2

We as a country rely on illegal immigrants
This doesn’t make illegal immigration right; however, it is not right for our government to suddenly deport every illegal immigrant after allowing illegal immigration to occur so successfully for so long either. (Even they know its wrong, everyone needs to follow the laws or change them)

All of slide #9 is ridiculous

Deporting Illegal Immigrants would cost between $206 and $230 billion (The Economic)
The United States would lose $551.6 in annual spending (Immigration Policy)
The United States would lose $245 billion in annual economic output (Immigration Reform)

Point 1 is unfounded, of course it would cost a onetime fee to get them out, but if we had a wall it wouldnt be as many and as repetitively, you realize savings down the road and Dollar Cost Average over the years.

Point 2 and 3 are assuming the workers wouldnt be replaced, I believe they would if compensated correctly and like I said earlier, I would love to remove 2 welfare recipients for the cost of removing 1 illegal worker.

Slide #11 makes almost no sense

Pay the same taxes that all U.S. Residents pay. (US Chamber of Commerce)
Provide employers w/ counterfeit documents.
Payroll, Federal Income, Social Security, and Medicare.

$586 billion earned suspense file (Unmatched Social Security Administration Contributions). (US Chamber of Commerce)
Growing by 66 billion a year.

Many undocumented immigrants obtain Tax Identification Numbers. (US Chamber of Commerce)

Point 1 says they pay the same taxes, yet use counterfeit documents, I guess they just have good hearts, huh?

Slide #13

“If all the undocumented immigrants were removed from the country, the immediate negative effect would be $1.76 trillion in annual lost spending and $651.51 billion in annual lost output.” –U.S. Chamber of Commerce

Because illegal immigrants pay billions in yearly taxes for services they rarely receive, they benefit the U.S. citizen.

Funny, I cant find these numbers anywhere and when I search the reference I get a broken link at the Chamber site and google only provides these 2 results when looking for the original work

www.google.com...=U.S.+Chamber+of+commerce+%E2%80%9CChamber+of+Commerce%3A+U.S+Immigration+ Myths%2C+Fact%2C+Fallacies%2C+Labor%2C+Immigration+%26+Employee+Benefits+Division%E2%80%9D.+U.S.+Chamber.+U.S.+Chamber+of+Commerce.+Web.+May+5%2C+2010 .

And finally per your own source (again) I give you Slide #15

-Tax Inclusive – self price is final price
Would allow/ensure illegal immigrants to pay taxes because taxes would be based on consumption, not undocumented income

-This would lead to a push toward becoming citizens in order to legally collect states and federal benefits without fear of deportation or imprisonment

-Other underground industries where tax money is lost:
Illicit drug market
Construction and landscaping work paid “under the table”
Billions of dollars currently lost on Internet and catalog sales
Other independent contractors

These are the supposed benefits from implementing the new Immigration reform plan (so its clearly biased to push that agenda and I wouldnt expect negative or contradictory information to that effect), please read point 1 and 3 carefully. Why do they need to implement this plan if these people are already paying their taxes? And point 3 reiterates that by showing exactly where illegals are able to find these loopholes.

So when I checked the fluff and sources for this powerpoint, I couldnt verify the information, and then the presentation even gives me the ammo about why we need to deport these illegals, and realistically I am not saying that we need to do that anyway. We definitely need to make sure the people that are here are following all the laws, paying their fair share, and that we have a better way to keep people out of this country illegally.

Donald is actually talking about those points where as Hillary hasnt even made a mention of it or addressed the very real and serious problems that are happening. Ideal solution is to build the wall, stop the inflow, address who and whats already here, get rid of the real baddies, and keep the producers. That would be a win-win for everyone.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: introvert

Considering that they shouldn't be here to make that money in the first place ...

So you don't care about freedom unless it's used by people you deem worthy?

Or just doing it the LEGAL way like you or I have to.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

Either you didn't bother reading your own source, or you're seeing words that are not there.

The detailed (and rather appealing) plan you linked does include measures to deport illegal immigrants convicted of crimes, but nowhere does it say all illegal immigrants will be rounded up.

People can make assinine deductions all day long, but that will not lead them to the truth.

This anti-Trump hysteria is getting ridiculous. You lefties are behaving in exactly the same manner you accuse right-wingers of when they oppose Obama. Except in this case, the opposition truly is rooted in lies and blind hatred.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: phishfriar47

How do you suppose the government collects taxes on 'Cash' paychecks when there is no paper trail and no way for verification, apparently you dont live in the real world, because even as legal American citizen I can find multiple ways to have income without paying any taxes if I so choose.

That has become increasingly rare. It is very easy to obtain a SS card and Permanent Resident Card so the illegals have many more options when it comes to employment. Cash under the table is the "old" way of doing things. Now it's much easier to use the existing system and look legitimate. Therefore, those people do pay taxes.

what is to stop the Illegal from claiming taxes in such a way to keep their money up front with the promise to pay it at return time.

With a SS card and Perm Res card you have to have up to date addresses. So what stops them is an IRS audit and a visit from immigration.

and also how Donald knows he has the leverage to build that wall by way of Mexico directly being involved. Saying I am out of touch when I have clearly explained myself and replied to every comment shows I know enough to talk about this topic

Build the wall? Ya, out of touch. That's not only not reasonable it's absurd.

Your density is too much for me:

www.uscis.gov...


Permanent Resident Alien
An alien admitted to the United States as a lawful permanent resident. Permanent residents are also commonly referred to as immigrants; however, the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) broadly defines an immigrant as any alien in the United States, except one legally admitted under specific nonimmigrant categories (INA section 101(a)(15)). An illegal alien who entered the United States without inspection, for example, would be strictly defined as an immigrant under the INA but is not a permanent resident alien. Lawful permanent residents are legally accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States. They may be issued immigrant visas by the Department of State overseas or adjusted to permanent resident status by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services in the United States.

Do you see in your own sources and words yet how these people I am speaking about are ILLEGAL? Its right there underlined in black and white. You say I am ridiculous but obviously you are having trouble comprehending what you are speaking about and where you are gathering your information

Again, please carefully consider the definition of illegal.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: ~Lucidity

Either you didn't bother reading your own source, or you're seeing words that are not there.

The detailed (and rather appealing) plan you linked does include measures to deport illegal immigrants convicted of crimes, but nowhere does it say all illegal immigrants will be rounded up.

People can make assinine deductions all day long, but that will not lead them to the truth.

This anti-Trump hysteria is getting ridiculous. You lefties are behaving in exactly the same manner you accuse right-wingers of when they oppose Obama. Except in this case, the opposition truly is rooted in lies and blind hatred.

Did you miss the part where I said I read it.

Did you miss all the parts about increasing ICE ?

Triple the number of ICE officers. As the President of the ICE Officers’ Council explained in Congressional testimony: “Only approximately 5,000 officers and agents within ICE perform the lion’s share of ICE’s immigration mission…Compare that to the Los Angeles Police Department at approximately 10,000 officers. Approximately 5,000 officers in ICE cover 50 states, Puerto Rico and Guam, and are attempting to enforce immigration law against 11 million illegal aliens already in the interior of the United States. Since 9-11, the U.S. Border Patrol has tripled in size, while ICE’s immigration enforcement arm, Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO), has remained at relatively the same size.” This will be funded by accepting the recommendation of the Inspector General for Tax Administration and eliminating tax credit payments to illegal immigrants.

And the part where I said I don't disagree with all the points?

But yeah okay...big government FTW.

And who the # are you calling a leftie? Take your lying, partisan bull# name calling elsewhere.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: ~Lucidity

Either you didn't bother reading your own source, or you're seeing words that are not there.

The detailed (and rather appealing) plan you linked does include measures to deport illegal immigrants convicted of crimes, but nowhere does it say all illegal immigrants will be rounded up.

People can make assinine deductions all day long, but that will not lead them to the truth.

This anti-Trump hysteria is getting ridiculous. You lefties are behaving in exactly the same manner you accuse right-wingers of when they oppose Obama. Except in this case, the opposition truly is rooted in lies and blind hatred.

Their idea is certainly twisted. We dont need to necessarily remove those 10-15 million illegals, they just need to be better implemented into the current system and following the same laws we do and paying the same taxes we do.

Only they are spouting that anyone wants to 'round em up' YEEHAW!

In actuality we need a wall to be able to KEEP them out and prevent them from coming over so that we dont have an open entrance while figuring this thing out. Because then the problem never gets fixed.

When you are shot and bleeding, you dont immediately dig the bullet out or perform surgery, you stop the flow of blood so you can asses the damage and what needs to be done. Same if you are in debt, you dont keep spending more money than you are bringing in, you stop spending and figure out where to save and where to cut and how to stop the outflow so you can fix the problem.

A wall does the same thing. It stops the flow so we can asses the situation and figure out how to fix it. And hell if it doesnt work and Mexico paid for it, then we didnt lose anything to begin with. But we gain nothing if we dont at least try SOMETHING

originally posted by: phishfriar47
a reply to: DelMarvel

WOW, so there are no legally documented workers who are here that are just as willing to do that same job?

So, how does that work? We go to all the effort, expense and upheaval to deport all the undocumented immigrants who are already doing the jobs and then bring in documented immigrants to do the work? How does that change anything other than causing a huge amount of trouble? Why not just grant amnesty?

originally posted by: phishfriar47
And yes, Americans would do that job if they were compensated fairly and received the same take home.

And "If" the poultry industry (for example again) had to rely on finding and paying cultural "Americans" willing to work on the line in poultry plants the price of chicken would dramatically increase for every product it's used in in this country as well as increase in price on the world market compared to what is produced by cheap labor in other countries.

Personally, I"m fine with that because those people in those plants deserved to be paid for the s### they have to go through. But let's be realistic about the economic sacrifice it's going to require.

a reply to: phishfriar47

I completely understand that. Perhaps you have not realized that the Perm Res cards are easily obtainable even for illegals. All you have to do is buy one.

Since the system in place to verify citizenship and employment availability is not mandatory, all you have to do is have a copy of the Perm Res card and the person can work, and no one ever knows the difference unless Immigration is tipped off.

You did know that those cards are easily forged, correct? You also know that it is quite common, correct?

I thought you said you worked around this stuff all the time and you have never seen a fake Perm Res card?

a reply to: phishfriar47

We don't need a wall to stop them from coming. The economy is doing that for us.

The entire idea of a wall is ridiculous and not even in the realm of sane.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: phishfriar47

We don't need a wall to stop them from coming. The economy is doing that for us.

The entire idea of a wall is ridiculous and not even in the realm of sane.

Its not ridiculous if this many people are talking about it as there are now, so thats an invalid point. We have a whole thread in this obscure little space in this massive web, so its certainly relevant and valid. Its all over the news and has been for weeks now.

Not everything has to be sane and most definitely not to whatever your definition of sane or crazy might be. Individuality and all that.

It still doesnt change the fact that enough people are talking about this as a relevant topic and a realistic thing to be discussing. It also doesnt change the fact that Donald believes he could make this happen AND have the Mexicans build and pay for the thing. I happen to agree with both the idea of a wall to symbolically do SOMETHING about the issue, and that Donald should be seeking a better deal on it if it does ever get to that point.

I also again must ask you to look at your other response about easily forging these cards. You cant have it both ways and selectively choose what fits your agenda, either you are for illegal activity or you are against it. You asked me if I knew how easy it would be to forge a Perm Res card, and my reply to you is three-fold.

1) Of course I do
2)Do you know how easy it is to forge other government documents like say places of residence, what your name may be, W-4s, how many dependents you ACTUALLY have versus what you are claiming? Things like that, which they do because it isnt enforced enough to catch all of the ones that are cheating, and the punishment if they do get caught is a free trip back home, no remittance, and the opportunity to walk back across an open border to forge all of those documents over again. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. And thats assuming they are the worker bee type mexicans, never mind MS-13 or La Raza right?
3)Are you really so dense as to post that they can easily cheat to obtain these important Perm Res documents and not believe that its regular practice for them to lie and cheat on other equally important documents as outlined above in response 2? Please tell me you see the irony there. They will lie and forge one, but not the other, what humanitarians they are! But im ridiculous right?

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: phishfriar47
a reply to: DelMarvel

WOW, so there are no legally documented workers who are here that are just as willing to do that same job?

So, how does that work? We go to all the effort, expense and upheaval to deport all the undocumented immigrants who are already doing the jobs and then bring in documented immigrants to do the work? How does that change anything other than causing a huge amount of trouble? Why not just grant amnesty?

originally posted by: phishfriar47
And yes, Americans would do that job if they were compensated fairly and received the same take home.

And "If" the poultry industry (for example again) had to rely on finding and paying cultural "Americans" willing to work on the line in poultry plants the price of chicken would dramatically increase for every product it's used in in this country as well as increase in price on the world market compared to what is produced by cheap labor in other countries.

Personally, I"m fine with that because those people in those plants deserved to be paid for the s### they have to go through. But let's be realistic about the economic sacrifice it's going to require.

Im gonna make this short, I dont necessarily agree with kicking out the illegals that are here already, I have no position yet on that specific aspect. In fact I would say if could get rid of the gangsters, drug cartels, and overall baddies in the group and keep the producers and have them follow the laws fairly, we could do alright as that should fix at least the African-american jobs in need to large extent.

I am still very much in favor of a wall though. I do believe it would be a symbol of doing SOMETHING, it will slow further entrance by illegals, and I think Mexico could ultimately pay to have it built or be responsible for at least half of the cost, which is still better than us paying for the whole thing.

Then think about it, in like 25 years once our country is stable again, we can destroy it and have a huge peace and love fest and start all over again. Boom.

ETA: I am also in favor of paying the poultry people a decent wage for doing such a disgusting job from farm to factory now-a-days.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
I'm gonna say it again, not to spam, but because I want an answer from the oh so wise defenders of this mass deportation plan.

Being generous with the estimates...
Losing 11million immigrants, aside from the $160billion in costs to deport...

Would also hit the economy for at least $55billion per year...

Within a decade you'd lose half a trillion economically...


Tell me the pros again!
Aside from an excessively sybaritic POTUS.

It's easy Charlie, we would save factors or by just not paying them food stamps free schools free medical care and the fact they wouldn't be sending most of the money they make here back to Mexico.

Any one of those outstrips the costs by itself.

All combined....