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Donald Trump’s immigration tab: $166 billion

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posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 09:43 AM
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a reply to: introvert

The only solution is to stop the freebies and tax them.

The illegals currently account for about a $75-$80 billion dollar impact, and of that number they send ~$25 Billion back to their country. Thats about 30% or so and on par with what most people pay in overall taxes. So thats one of our main problems, they get these freebies and clearly have enough money to send what would actually pay for the services they receive back home. So its not like they cant pay for it, they choose not to, and still expect us the taxpayers to provide it free to them while smiling and taking our money and sending any extra back home.

Thats a huge part of the problem. No one I have talked to has any problems with the people who do things the right way, its the 10-15 million illegals that are bleeding the system dry through taking the freebies and then sending the money that could have paid for that back out of this country. Its a double-whammy




posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 09:44 AM
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a reply to: phishfriar47

They do pay their fair share. If you look at welfare numbers, the percentage that receive assistance are in proportion to their population size. Blacks people are much higher.



33% of their income back to mexico instead of it staying here.


Who are you to say what people should or should not do with their money? I think it's horrible how much American's spend on alcohol each year. Do I have a right to tell them where they should spend it?

It's arrogant to think it's even our place whatsoever.



So what if I thought the same way. I am miserable here in America and I want to go to Switzerland where the quality of life is better and the opportunities exist for me to succeed better than they do here. So I'm just going to leave everything behind with no plan and set off for Switzerland and then make them take care of me while I send all of my money that I am making illegally back to my family here instead of helping the country that helped me.



Yes, that is ridiculous. That is not what is happening in this case. Your analogy would only hold true if all of the Mexican people were here living off the American people and not contributing one bit.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 09:51 AM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: phishfriar47

They do pay their fair share. If you look at welfare numbers, the percentage that receive assistance are in proportion to their population size. Blacks people are much higher.



33% of their income back to mexico instead of it staying here.


Who are you to say what people should or should not do with their money? I think it's horrible how much American's spend on alcohol each year. Do I have a right to tell them where they should spend it?

It's arrogant to think it's even our place whatsoever.



So what if I thought the same way. I am miserable here in America and I want to go to Switzerland where the quality of life is better and the opportunities exist for me to succeed better than they do here. So I'm just going to leave everything behind with no plan and set off for Switzerland and then make them take care of me while I send all of my money that I am making illegally back to my family here instead of helping the country that helped me.



Yes, that is ridiculous. That is not what is happening in this case. Your analogy would only hold true if all of the Mexican people were here living off the American people and not contributing one bit.


Who is to say what workers should spend their money on? Are you serious right now? Before you even receive one dollar of your paycheck the government has taken their cut and thus directly control 'where' you get to spend your money and how much of it you get to keep, unless of course you are an undocumented worker, and if so, you are as much part of the problem as the illegals.

The only thing is that this applies to the legal workers and citizens only.

We are talking about illegals. Who use our hospitals without paying any bills, who gets assistance by way of welfare and food stamps, yet has no taxes taken out because they work illegally and make nothing on paper for the government to extract from. Do you see how this works yet. The only thing they contribute to right now are sales tax items that get taxed at the point of purchase, and if on food stamps, then most of that is covered.

Please tell me how illegals contribute to this country where a legal worker wouldnt be more beneficial.

And carefully consider the terms 'illegal' and what 'contributing' means.

The whole point of illegal workers is that they circumvent paying taxes so the employer can pay out a cheaper rate.

And the very last point that you made that the situation sounds ridiculous. Please, please, please carefully consider the word illegal, that is EXACTLY what illegals do. How can they contribute if they are illegally receiving wages and not paying taxes. Where is their contribution? Deflating american workers wages? Free hospital visits? Sending 30% back to their home country instead of paying those taxes that they should owe?

I will wait for your list of contributions that Illegal Mexican workers make to this country.
edit on 19-8-2015 by phishfriar47 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:00 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

It was a tangent to a pertinent discussion of the discussion we were having. An example to point out relativity, not totally off topic as your posts were. You're on ignore now. But knock yourself out stalking me after the very effective job you did derailing this thread from the get go.
edit on 8/19/2015 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:10 AM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: phishfriar47

They do pay their fair share. If you look at welfare numbers, the percentage that receive assistance are in proportion to their population size. Blacks people are much higher.



33% of their income back to mexico instead of it staying here.


Who are you to say what people should or should not do with their money? I think it's horrible how much American's spend on alcohol each year. Do I have a right to tell them where they should spend it?

It's arrogant to think it's even our place whatsoever.



So what if I thought the same way. I am miserable here in America and I want to go to Switzerland where the quality of life is better and the opportunities exist for me to succeed better than they do here. So I'm just going to leave everything behind with no plan and set off for Switzerland and then make them take care of me while I send all of my money that I am making illegally back to my family here instead of helping the country that helped me.



Yes, that is ridiculous. That is not what is happening in this case. Your analogy would only hold true if all of the Mexican people were here living off the American people and not contributing one bit.


Here is some math to play with.

Blacks are a large portion of our welfare recipients correct? We have an African-American population of about 32,000,000 and an unemployment rate of around 10% for that demographic. Simple math says that we are looking at around 3.2 million folks looking for work legally here in this country.

Now you said yourself that they are proportionally on assistance.

Now wouldnt it make much more sense to have those 10-15 million jobs being held by the illegals to be available to our citizens and an ailing demographic that we are also taking care of.

See how great the economic impact would be. If we send all 10 million illegals back, we wouldnt have to provide assistance to them to begin with. We have also simultaneously opened an available job up to the other ailing demographic, which allows them to actually pay their taxes to contribute to the overall health of this nation, and at the very same time takes them off of government assistance by providing them an opportunity to work. Its an exponential difference and allows us to take care of the people here first without draining money from our economy. Right now at the very minimum we are losing ~$25 billion just off of what the illegals are sending home, I dont know of any African Americans sending piles of cash back to Africa. So that money stays in country, and the alleviation on a burdened welfare system would help our economy drastically with a 2 for 1 reduction (the illegal and the poor AA versus the illegal being back in their home country and our poor AA actually working).

You clearly dont understand the fine intricacies of this issue.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:13 AM
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I would gladly pay 300 billion to export all illegals. The economic boost it would create would be felt for decades.


And when Donald Trump is president... yes of course Mexico will help build the wall. They really don't have a pot to piss in on this issue.

I rather like making work camps for the illegals to build the wall. If they work for one year on the wall in the camp they become full citizens.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:15 AM
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a reply to: phishfriar47



Before you even receive one dollar of your paycheck the government has taken their cut and thus directly control 'where' you get to spend your money and how much of it you get to keep, unless of course you are an undocumented worker, and if so, you are as much part of the problem as the illegals.


So your "logical" solution is to be more like the government?



The only thing is that this applies to the legal workers and citizens only


It applies to anyone that has a job. Legal or not, taxes are taken from their checks. You knew that, right?



who gets assistance by way of welfare and food stamps


Yes, but much less of a percentage based on their percentage of the population. At this link it says they Hispanics are 17% of the population, but at this link they only account for 10% of welfare usage.



yet has no taxes taken out because they work illegally and make nothing on paper for the government to extract from


You have no clue what you are talking about. Not only do they pay taxes on income, as you have to has a SS# to work, they also pay sales taxes for everything they buy.



Please tell me how illegals contribute to this country where a legal worker wouldnt be more beneficial.




I will wait for your list of contributions that Illegal Mexican workers make to this country.


Irrelevant. What's relevant is what are we going to do about it? Are we going to round them up and send them home? Are we going to implement some ridiculous tax? Are we going to build some wall and bill the Mexicans?

We have to deal in reality here. Your little rant only shows your lack of knowledge on the issue and that is not based in reality.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:15 AM
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I thought this entire article was pretty interesting. This is just a snip from it.

Like I said before, there are lot of numbers and a lot of angles to consider in all of this. It's a black and white issues as far as illegal immigration being...well...illegal, but there are complexities in the numbers and in human factors we can't ignore either.

Trump says illegal immigrants get $4.2B in tax credits but doesn't count their taxes paid

Based on an audit by the Treasury Inspector General, the claim leaves out some context. Trump conflates "illegal immigrants" with "unauthorized workers," a group composed largely of undocumented immigrants but also legal immigrants and others. The $4.2 billion refers to the amount given in tax credit refunds for children, the large majority of whom are U.S. citizens. And the actual year is 2009, not 2011 (that was the year the report was published).

Also, it's important to note that illegal immigrants pay an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes to Social Security and don't receive benefits. So Trump is leaving out a significant part of the picture when it comes to taxes and undocumented workers.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:18 AM
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originally posted by: phishfriar47

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: phishfriar47

It's not whole u related to what I've been highlighting.


Im working through your link and numbers now, but can you clarify what you were meaning with what I left quoted?


Yes fella, my point of not connecting the two, is because I'm not assuming that what illegals spend to add to economic growth is not guaranteed to be recouped just by giving the illegals jobs to legal citizens.
Those legal citizens already add to the economy in consumer revenue...

My point is deporting 11million is a direct loss to consumerism.

It's not about job worth or wage gain...

I'm solely discussing the loss to consumerism by removing 11m people from the population...

My main point is something I need help with...
Which States gain the most from illegal immigrant consumerism...
& how important is that States budget on a whole in regard to U.S economic growth as a whole?


There is a lot of nuanced details that need to be fine-combed before we jump in he deport them all and build a wall bandwagon.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:23 AM
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originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: phishfriar47

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: phishfriar47

It's not whole u related to what I've been highlighting.


Im working through your link and numbers now, but can you clarify what you were meaning with what I left quoted?


Yes fella, my point of not connecting the two, is because I'm not assuming that what illegals spend to add to economic growth is not guaranteed to be recouped just by giving the illegals jobs to legal citizens.
Those legal citizens already add to the economy in consumer revenue...

My point is deporting 11million is a direct loss to consumerism.

It's not about job worth or wage gain...

I'm solely discussing the loss to consumerism by removing 11m people from the population...

My main point is something I need help with...
Which States gain the most from illegal immigrant consumerism...
& how important is that States budget on a whole in regard to U.S economic growth as a whole?


There is a lot of nuanced details that need to be fine-combed before we jump in he deport them all and build a wall bandwagon.


I dont get how you 'lose' a worker and what they spend when you replace them with unemployed folks here. See my previous comment on this and how it would be a 2-1 swap to our advantage.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:25 AM
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originally posted by: ~Lucidity
I thought this entire article was pretty interesting. This is just a snip from it.

Like I said before, there are lot of numbers and a lot of angles to consider in all of this. It's a black and white issues as far as illegal immigration being...well...illegal, but there are complexities in the numbers and in human factors we can't ignore either.

Trump says illegal immigrants get $4.2B in tax credits but doesn't count their taxes paid

Based on an audit by the Treasury Inspector General, the claim leaves out some context. Trump conflates "illegal immigrants" with "unauthorized workers," a group composed largely of undocumented immigrants but also legal immigrants and others. The $4.2 billion refers to the amount given in tax credit refunds for children, the large majority of whom are U.S. citizens. And the actual year is 2009, not 2011 (that was the year the report was published).

Also, it's important to note that illegal immigrants pay an estimated $12 billion in payroll taxes to Social Security and don't receive benefits. So Trump is leaving out a significant part of the picture when it comes to taxes and undocumented workers.


That article also leaves you wanting for more information. For example it says that illegals pay SS, but nothing about Income Tax. Which benefits arent received, just the Social Security that was just previously mentioned in the article or all benefits in general.

Because there are fallacies there. For instance, SS is not the lions share of taxes taken out for income, and hospitals have to provide care to patients whether or not they provide an accurate address or identification. And what is the recourse for extracting payment out of people who make nothing on paper.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: introvert

But the alcohol is bought in the US. That money stays in the US.

This money is sent back to Mexico and subsequently spent there. It ceases to be part of the US economy.

Your attempt at comparison is weak.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:34 AM
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www.webpages.uidaho.edu...

This little PDF highlights a few key things.

I don't vouch for it 100% as a source, but it cites its own sources at the bottom section of the PDF.
I'd ignore the leftist rhetoric and focus on the stats to avoid any partisan bickering.

It speaks of an Annual loss of over $1trillion if deportation of all illegals is implemented...

Now given that it's from 2010, those numbers have most likely risen with the rise of illegals.



I'm not citing this as the be all and end all, I'd still like to know the overall cons so I can balance my own argument.
edit on 19-8-2015 by CharlieSpeirs because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:37 AM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: phishfriar47



Before you even receive one dollar of your paycheck the government has taken their cut and thus directly control 'where' you get to spend your money and how much of it you get to keep, unless of course you are an undocumented worker, and if so, you are as much part of the problem as the illegals.


So your "logical" solution is to be more like the government?



The only thing is that this applies to the legal workers and citizens only


It applies to anyone that has a job. Legal or not, taxes are taken from their checks. You knew that, right?



who gets assistance by way of welfare and food stamps


Yes, but much less of a percentage based on their percentage of the population. At this link it says they Hispanics are 17% of the population, but at this link they only account for 10% of welfare usage.



yet has no taxes taken out because they work illegally and make nothing on paper for the government to extract from


You have no clue what you are talking about. Not only do they pay taxes on income, as you have to has a SS# to work, they also pay sales taxes for everything they buy.



Please tell me how illegals contribute to this country where a legal worker wouldnt be more beneficial.




I will wait for your list of contributions that Illegal Mexican workers make to this country.


Irrelevant. What's relevant is what are we going to do about it? Are we going to round them up and send them home? Are we going to implement some ridiculous tax? Are we going to build some wall and bill the Mexicans?

We have to deal in reality here. Your little rant only shows your lack of knowledge on the issue and that is not based in reality.


Someone has ruffled feathers....LOL

First my 'logical solution' is for everyone to follow the laws the same way, and that is far larger problem then just this situation. Because illegals arent the only one breaking the law and circumventing it to get what they want. Elites do it just as bad, but we are a nation of laws and those laws need to be followed until they are changed. Thats just common sense.

Point Two, How do you suppose the government collects taxes on 'Cash' paychecks when there is no paper trail and no way for verification, apparently you dont live in the real world, because even as legal American citizen I can find multiple ways to have income without paying any taxes if I so choose.

Also, I addressed this in another response, they take Social Security if applicable, that is not income taxes, and if they do take that, what is to stop the Illegal from claiming taxes in such a way to keep their money up front with the promise to pay it at return time. What recourse do we have for finding them and auditing them when the time comes, they are illegal and undocumented, they can just buy a new Soc. Sec. card or go back home until they can come back under clean circumstances.

Your welfare numbers are spot on with what I said earlier, about half of the Mexican population contributes correctly and doesnt need to be on assistance. 10% is almost half of 17% (20% whatever), so that just helps to prove my point. Plus your numbers only say Mexican population and welfare by Hispanics, true information is need by break down of illegals for legal migrants.

Your next point can be directed to the cash payouts I was talking about. And you assume the problem is only with the illegal, its also on the shoulders of his legal citizen employer that is contributing to this particular problem, we are just talking about the illegals right now.

And your last point is just proof that I have gotten to you, I am not dealing in reality yet I have much real world experience in illegal worker activity as I am in an industry that relies on that class of individual, I have observed and provided to welfare recipients both in food and housing for decades, so I know a little something about what i see. I also have used all of the numbers that have been thrown at me by dissenting views and have largely shown how that applies, and also how Donald knows he has the leverage to build that wall by way of Mexico directly being involved. Saying I am out of touch when I have clearly explained myself and replied to every comment shows I know enough to talk about this topic. Maybe it is you who doesnt live in reality and understand the things you are speaking about. Its ok, it happens, you arent the first person I have had to correct on this thread.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:38 AM
link   

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
www.webpages.uidaho.edu...

This little PDF highlights a few key things.

But I don't vouch for it 100% as a source, but it cites its own sources at the bottom section of the PDF.
If ignore the leftist rhetoric and focus on the stats to avoid any partisan bickering.

It speaks of an Annual loss of over $1trillion if deportation of all illegals is implemented...

Now given that it's from 2010, those numbers have most likely risen with the rise of illegals.



I'm not citing this as the be all and end all, I'd still like to know the overall cons so I can balance my own argument.


Still trying to find something to stump me with I see. LOL. give me a minute to look it over and form a response.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:39 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: introvert

But the alcohol is bought in the US. That money stays in the US.

This money is sent back to Mexico and subsequently spent there. It ceases to be part of the US economy.

Your attempt at comparison is weak.



The comparison was not made according to where the money ended up. The comparison was made to highlight that we have no right telling people what they should do with their money.

Whether the money goes to Mexico or is spent to support an alcoholic, it's bad right? Do we have the right to tell people what they can or cannot do with their money? Do we not have the right to do with our money as we wish?

If so, the comment I responded to is irrelevant and oppressive in nature.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:43 AM
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a reply to: ~Lucidity


Conservative spending?

I don't suppose it will be his money he will be spending do you?


You were the one who started this thread in an accusatory tone. You accused conservatives of being all for spending. I pointed out that spending is what government does, and that the real argument should be about immigration.

This is where the discussion has since gone.

You can ignore that all you want. I am sorry that more of the usual suspects haven't jumped in to help you bash more conservatives.

But money is the tool. The plan is what needs to be addressed and that's what we're trying to do here now.

Is this too much a price tag for what may or may not occur? I don't know how much are we being bled for now? What might be the benefits of paying this price? And is this even a realistic assessment of a cost?

But the reality is, as has been discussed, that we are already paying and have been paying in many, many ways for our lack of action for decades now. Has that cost overrun this projected amount you put up? I will bet that it has by magnitudes.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:44 AM
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originally posted by: phishfriar47

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: phishfriar47

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: phishfriar47

It's not whole u related to what I've been highlighting.


Im working through your link and numbers now, but can you clarify what you were meaning with what I left quoted?


Yes fella, my point of not connecting the two, is because I'm not assuming that what illegals spend to add to economic growth is not guaranteed to be recouped just by giving the illegals jobs to legal citizens.
Those legal citizens already add to the economy in consumer revenue...

My point is deporting 11million is a direct loss to consumerism.

It's not about job worth or wage gain...

I'm solely discussing the loss to consumerism by removing 11m people from the population...

My main point is something I need help with...
Which States gain the most from illegal immigrant consumerism...
& how important is that States budget on a whole in regard to U.S economic growth as a whole?


There is a lot of nuanced details that need to be fine-combed before we jump in he deport them all and build a wall bandwagon.


I dont get how you 'lose' a worker and what they spend when you replace them with unemployed folks here. See my previous comment on this and how it would be a 2-1 swap to our advantage.


Of course you don't because you keep bringing up worker loss when I'm talking about consumerism.

They're separate, and I've stated this numerous times.



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:47 AM
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a reply to: introvert

Considering that they shouldn't be here to make that money in the first place ...



posted on Aug, 19 2015 @ 10:47 AM
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a reply to: ~Lucidity


Again, the $166B appear to be immediate and tangible costs of deportation aside from the wall.

Why would they deport all that cheap labor? They need it. I think the great deportation issue is empty rhetoric designed to distract us.


As to the wall, if the Mexicans do build it, and I wouldn't at this point blame them if they did, it would be a much more beautiful wall than the one we're attempting to build.


With crosses on top and dingle balls?

Just kidding. They need it to be just as cheap as possible, it too is a ruse, designed to distract us. Like how come the drugs and migrant worker supply isn't at all affected by the current "fence"?




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